Discussion of Angel 5x15 - "A Hole In The World" (WB-U.S.A.) airing 2/25/04.

Hitome said:
She died anyway. It takes four hours to get to the well in a W&H jet. Even if Fred died on board Illyria would be on a Plane. If Illyria can't fly it then the plane would crash and Wesley would die too I guess, but honestly he could just shove Fred's corpse out of the airplane. With any luck the fall would at least damage the demon. Also, why didn't Wesley just cut Fred's head off when she died? I don't really picture Illyria headless somehow.
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Hmm. Why didnt wes think to chop Fred's head off in the 5 seconds between her death and possession? Hmm. That's the dumbest thing i ever heard...nearly. No offence. He he

WyrdDemonHunter said:
Also, the hole in the center of the world: This would be cool except that it's annoying to have huge, universe-altering stuff dropped on us five seasons into the spin-off series of another series. It's also a little hard to swallow. I mean--where did the molten core go? I know, I know--I should really just relax. 🙂 /time passes.../ Okay. Now I'm relaxed.
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The hole doesnt have to go through the middle if you think about it. Think of it like a tunnel dug from LA to NY. It would be a hole in the world but wouldnt need to go through the centre. Obviously this hole is way bigger than that though.

I loved the fast pace of this episode but the cheesy lines like "Let's good do what's right" or "Not this girl. Not this day" annoyed me. Just like in 'Your Welcome' when Angel said "I'm Angel" to Linsey. Too corny guys.
Fav bit was the start when Angel appeared with the sword through himself. That was hilarious.
The actors really oputdone themselves this time. It was total top notch stuff JA Richards, Amy and Alexis.
Cant wait for next wednesday.

Baroni
 
wow...what an episode. I really didn't think that Fred was going to die, i thought they were going to save her. Her turning into that creepy thing w/ blue hair reminded me alot of Willow's evil side. Spike and Angel actually getting along w/ nice, and Spike seemed really sweet the way he was talking about Fred, and about the hole in the earth...
 
And this season just keeps getting better, and keeps adding more surprising, tear-jerking twists. You don't know wheter to cry, or just stare at the screen because your so astonished and shocked. God, I finally see Fred/Wesley together and Fred gets killed by a parasitic demon. Oh, I really like the part with the wire and they cut the demons like in half, very cool. And the hole in the world.....I thought that was really....I don't know, but I liked it. Awesome episode, but poor Fred. And Wesley. I can't wait for the next episode.
 
Baron Samedi said:
Hmm. Why didnt wes think to chop Fred's head off in the 5 seconds between her death and possession? Hmm. That's the dumbest thing i ever heard...nearly. No offence. He he
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If you are at all familiar with sword work or martial arts five seconds is more than enough time to decapitate someone especially someone who is already dead.

Also, I didn't say that he should have suddenly decided to decapitate Fred's corpse at that moment of her death. Wesley should have been prepared for the possible eventuality of her death and prepared to stop the demon that murdered Fred. He owed it to her.

If he had a katana on him it would have been easy to chop off her head. Not easy emotionally, but easy physically anyway.

Second thought an ax might be better since she was lying down. Anyway any sharp significatly heavy wepon would work.
 
Hitome said:
Sick! That's really sick. Basicly what you're saying is that Welsey is going to help Illyria who murdered the woman he loved just because it is wearing Fred's skin. And that you would too WyrdDemonHunter, yuck. I hope it was a joke 😉
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No joke. It may seem a bit perverse, but if Wesley is in denial that Fred is completely dead, he may think that there is still some of Fred in Illyria and try to redeem her. He will not necessarily aid her, but it is possible. Also, she may be able to manipulate him somehow using her appearance. I don't know if you would consider this a spoiler, but it was shown in the promo:
Illyria tells Wesley that he will help her because she looks like Fred.
He would not aid Illyria because of her appearance alone, but because he thinks that there is some chance to save the Fred that he loves.
 
Hitome said:
If you are at all familiar with sword work or martial arts five seconds is more than enough time to decapitate someone especially someone who is already dead.

Also, I didn't say that he should have suddenly decided to decapitate Fred's corpse at that moment of her death. Wesley should have been prepared for the possible eventuality of her death and prepared to stop the demon that murdered Fred. He owed it to her.

If he had a katana on him it would have been easy to chop off her head. Not easy emotionally, but easy physically anyway.

Second thought an ax might be better since she was lying down. Anyway any sharp significatly heavy wepon would work.
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Let's think back to 4x13 Salvage where Wes decapitates Lilah. That took him anywhere from 10 to 20 min and he had to talk with an imaginary version of her first. You're forgetting the human element. Also, for Wes to act as you've described (the planning--the premediation) would be difficult because he's in love with Fred. It's difficult to clearly think thorugh things like that in that situation.
Hypothetical example:
Hypothetical_Wesley_thought_process said:
hmm... what should I do with/to Fred in the event that she becomes a hell-spawn demon? No!Can't-think-about-it-can't-think-about-it-can't-think-about-it... I'll just read the Dred Host's Compendium, that'll keep me occupied while she naps. She'll be fine. Angel and Spike will come through.
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Just my opinion. 🙂
 
I wish it hadn't happened to Fred because she's the only female main character on the show and I'm a big fred/wesely shipper . I even almost wanted Angel to let all those ppl die, I'm pretty sure I'd be willing to become infected for Fred (of course about 10 mins into it I may have a change of heart because that looked really painful). Sadly it had to be Fred tho because she's the only one everyone on the show (except for eve) would have died for; Gunn Wesley and (gag) Knox love her, spike in hellbound gave up becoming corporeal for her, Fred told Lorne most ppl would prefer to be green, Fred is Harmony's best/only friend, and Angel is all hero like and not about to lose another one of his friends.

and as a prediction/forshadowing thing in "happy anniversary" Lorn tells Angel that Wesley plays a big part in, well something. so I started wondering if that has nothing to do with Jasmine or Conner and everything to do with this season. I for one can't wait till next week.
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
Let's think back to 4x13 Salvage where Wes decapitates Lilah. That took him anywhere from 10 to 20 min and he had to talk with an imaginary version of her first. You're forgetting the human element. Also, for Wes to act as you've described (the planning--the premediation) would be difficult because he's in love with Fred. It's difficult to clearly think thorugh things like that in that situation.
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OK. I'll give you Wes, he's a little bit of a wimp about doing what's necessary when women are involved. Why couldn't someone else (other than plot reasons that I'm ignoring right now) be man or woman enough to stop Illyria?

Harmony now here's an idea. Harmony could have choped off Fred's head after she died. She was Fred's friend and since she's a soulless vampire (and not like Spike) would have been able to act without her emotions getting in the way. Totally hypothetical mind you-- but it would have been great if Harmony saved the world from Illyria.
 
Hitome said:
Harmony now here's an idea. Harmony could have choped off Fred's head after she died. She was Fred's friend and since she's a soulless vampire (and not like Spike) would have been able to act without her emotions getting in the way. Totally hypothetical mind you-- but it would have been great if Harmony saved the world from Illyria.
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Yeah, Harm could do it, no prob. She'd even do it with a smile on her face. Well, maybe a slight grimace instead because, as was previously mentioned, Harmony likes Fred too. But that wouldn't stop Harmony from chopping off Fred's head if it were necessary.

But I still fail to see how this would be a good thing. If that had happened, we'd have been denied seeing Amy play an evil, ancient, (hot!) demon-lady. 🙂

P.S. Also, Harmony can't be allowed to do that (by Joss and Co.--personally I wouldn't care) because then she'd be like, Harmony the (undead) Demon Slayer. Or something. 🙂
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
P.S. Also, Harmony can't be allowed to do that (by Joss and Co.--personally I wouldn't care) because then she'd be like, Harmony the (undead) Demon Slayer. Or something. 🙂
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That would be great, of course Joss would never allow it though. The irony would be wonderful.
I've got to admit that Acker is sizzling hot as Illyria. I've always said that Amy Acker is hot, now everyone believes me. 😀
 
*skips through all the posts to add his two cents* 🙂

I thought the episode was cheapened at the end with the sudden change. It happened too quickly, we built up to this climax of emotion between Wes and Fred only to be overshadowed by the arrival of this demoness 🙁... the episode should have ended with Wes crying on the bed with fred in his arms and then had the preview for next weeks episode so you know there's more to come but Freds life should have ended with that episode and the birth of the demoness began in the next episode.

Just felt cheapy to this First Evil fella... but we know the answer to the caveman debate now 🙁
 
DarkNova said:
and as a prediction/forshadowing thing in "happy anniversary" Lorn tells Angel that Wesley plays a big part in, well something. so I started wondering if that has nothing to do with Jasmine or Conner and everything to do with this season. I for one can't wait till next week.
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I remember watching that episode in hindsight about a month ago, and that line really catching my attention. Automatically, I thought back to this whole Jasmine/Conner thing, but now I'm curious if Joss had thought ahead this far from that line.
 
Wow, this ep was so sad. I loved how they started with Fred back home talking to her parents about coming to L.A. and then it showed her setting demon seeds on fire. Fred is a loved character on the show, but I'm glad to see that Amy Acker will get to flex her acting muscles by playing evil. I think that she looks great with that blue hair and the weird contacts. Anyhoo, back to this ep, I can't believe that Knox set up poor Fred like that. I'm glad that Gunn bashed his head in. I feel sorry for Gunn because he didn't know what was going to happen by letting that thing get through customs. Wes is probably going to kick his butt next week.
 
Eternal Darkness said:
Anyhoo, back to this ep, I can't believe that Knox set up poor Fred like that. I'm glad that Gunn bashed his head in. I feel sorry for Gunn because he didn't know what was going to happen by letting that thing get through customs. Wes is probably going to kick his butt next week.
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But if Knox is dead (which I'm not sure if he is), then what makes you think that Gunn will even tell Wesley what happened? 🙂 He could just keep it to himself, all secret-like. He could tell Wesley the part where Knox confessed to being involved in an ancient cult and leave out the other part.

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And, on a related subject: Does anyone else see a strong similarity between Knox's brief speech about how all this stuff that happened are parts in a master plan to ressurect and free Illyria and Skip's season four speech about how all the stuff that happened in the previous seasons of Angel were all part of a master plan that would allow Jasmine to come to Earth?

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And whatever happened to Gwen? Guess she's not a catwoman-type super-semi-hero anymore?
 
I'm not really sure if Gunn gonna tell Wes every detail of the convo with Knox..But I'm sure Gunn'll feel horrible...
 
WyrdDemonHunter said:
And, on a related subject: Does anyone else see a strong similarity between Knox's brief speech about how all this stuff that happened are parts in a master plan to ressurect and free Illyria and Skip's season four speech about how all the stuff that happened in the previous seasons of Angel were all part of a master plan that would allow Jasmine to come to Earth?

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And whatever happened to Gwen? Guess she's not a catwoman-type super-semi-hero anymore?
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I definitely see the similarity. What's with all the women on Angel getting killed by "fate"? As for Gwen she went to Tahiti. Maybe she decided not to come back to L.A.? I hope we see her again.
 
I thought this was the best episode of the season... It was sad, I cried.. When Angel said the hell with the world or whatever.. I can't believe he said that, you can't kill thousands of people to save just one person, you have to make sacrifices.. so did Gunn kill Knox, I walked out of the room for like two seconds..
 
InThisLife said:
I thought this was the best episode of the season... It was sad, I cried.. When Angel said the hell with the world or whatever.. I can't believe he said that, you can't kill thousands of people to save just one person, you have to make sacrifices.. so did Gunn kill Knox, I walked out of the room for like two seconds..
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I didn't walk out of the room and it's still not totally clear. I mean--it seems to me like he rammed the big, metal thing into Knox's head. But I'll have to wait for next week's ep to know for sure since I don't look at trailers/previews.
 
I am not surprised that Fred was killed (hello~~she and Wesley just got together, we should have expected it!!! It is the nature of the "Jossverse"

It was sad, but I am interested in what happens after/if/when they defeat Illyria. What happens to Fred's body? Does it turn back to her, or stay in demon form? hmmm.

I loved the argument about cavemen vs. astronaut. The cavemen would so win!

And: Nerd4Hire: are you sure that you're not a certified genuis? Good observations and comments about corruption. It is becoming very evident.
 
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