Discussion of Angel & Faith 9.01 "Live Through This"- Released 8/31/11 (Dark Horse)

[nmcil12]

When I first read the issue the conversation with Faith did seem like the writers were being wishy washy, with the "It's his fault! No it's not!" kinda thing. But reading it again it is very clear that Angel takes COMPLETE responsibility for his actions (or lack of actions) and it is actually Faith suggesting that it wasn't all his fault.

As for the Hell-A bit, well that is fact. That is exactly what he was told. It isn't an excuse. Angel doesn't view it as an excuse because he is still insisting that he could have done more, questioned more. Many people share that view, while other's feel that Angel was played. Personally? I think it is all true. I think he was played like a bloody fiddle, and that TPB showed him a situation that they new Angel would not be able to walk away from. But I also think he knew better and should have questioned the mission a Hell of a lot more.

---------- Post added at 06:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------



Forgetting the point that he owns the guilt of Twilight completely because he was at fault, isn't Angel taking responsibility completely in character? I get the impression that you feel like the writers are manipulating the fans with this somehow, but really, I can't think of a more Angel thing to do. Or have I read you comment incorrectly?

The one thing that is really important to me not only for where Angel is now, but for all the history of his Sunnydale period - Just my take, but it seems to me that this issue does away finally with the endless discussions about Angel and Angelus being separate entities. After this issue, I don't see how there can be anymore doubt that Souled Angel is equally capable of doing great harm and evil as Angelus.

I liked the issue very much - think it is an excellent introduction for the new series.
I feel really sorry for Faith - she is really been placed in a terrible situation. What should be her main concern, The Slayers that she is helping and I think one of the reasons that Giles left her with his estate, or Angel?

Love the artwork, especially the bar scene with Nadira and Faith - also love all the details that the artist put in the scenes. Like Nadira peeling away the label on the beer bottle - to me it reads like "no more delusions and numbing of reality" and the Egyptian sculpture in Giles' apartment made me think of the Egyptian Underworld/Death judgement rituals of "Balance" - It would be very interesting if this series turned about to include some of the elements of The Judgement of Angel as in the Egyptian Death Journey myth.

 

[Kean]

The one thing that is really important to me not only for where Angel is now, but for all the history of his Sunnydale period - Just my take, but it seems to me that this issue does away finally with the endless discussions about Angel and Angelus being separate entities. After this issue, I don't see how there can be anymore doubt that Souled Angel is equally capable of doing great harm and evil as Angelus.

I'm not sure what you mean here, you think this issue proves Angel and Angelus are the same?

If that is what you meant, then I have to disagree. I think this issue proved the opposite, that Angel and Angelus are separate entities.

Soulled Angel being capable of wrong doesn't make him or equate him Angelus. In terms of this issue, all it really clarified is that they both have oceans of blood on their hands. What is different is how they came to scarlet their palms. Angelus did it through pure evil. Angel through naivity, stupidity and some hubris.

 

[Abby27]

OK guys. I've had to literally take BB off of my tabs on Google chrome until I got this issue of Angel and Faith because I knew I would come read this and spoiler the hell out of it. I FINALLY got it in the mail tonight and here are my thoughts:

I think I reread the first bit with Giles about 10 times before moving on. I LOVED getting to watch Giles do what he does and be awesome. It was absolutely enlightening to watch him talk of his profession and kids and the whatnot.

I am so torn on the memory with Jenny. I am a huge G/J shipper (the otp of BtVS imo) and so to see anything G/J that is canon is such a great joy. Haven't had it in what 13 years? And I appreciate that even though Jenny hadn't been in the show for a long time, she is given respect as a character and as the woman (probably only) Giles fell in love with. I was happy to see the writing team have the memory of him and her falling in love as one of the best in his life.

On that note, I am pretty pissed they took that from Giles. Really? She was already dead, they already did that to him. They never really got back together after Jenny's past was revealed, and all Giles' had was his memories of her. And they took the memory of the day they fell in love? Come on. COME ON.

Moving on, I love the idea of Angel and Faith working together. It seems very natural, they have a great relationship and I am excited to see more of their dynamic.

I was a little weirded out to see Whistler casually talking with evil people amidst a scene of horror, but he is a demon out to settle the score between good and evil. So, I guess I can buy it. And I can totally buy that the powers that be want Angel dead. I am on the camp of Angel needing to just die already, so it's definitely a shift to see that the powers may be on that side too.

Angel resurrecting Giles? I hope not. God I hope not. I am hoping that it has something to do with time travel or maybe going back in time and giving Giles life by allowing him to live a normal life in some alternative reality? I mean, the beginning with Giles' talking about not being able to have kids...maybe that's foreshadowing Angel going back in time and having some sort of alternate timeline where Giles is able to have some sort of semblance of normal life. Who knows? I just hope it isn't another "Forever."

 

[The Scourge]

Does anyone know where I can find the sales figures for the first issue? I'm interested to see how many copies of Angel & Faith have been sold, what with the pissed off Angel fans because of S8, the pissed off IDW fans whose canon is lost, and a good portion of the fandom hating Angel for killing Giles... I'm not expecting it to be sold out.

 

[VisionGirl]

Does anyone know where I can find the sales figures for the first issue? I'm interested to see how many copies of Angel & Faith have been sold, what with the pissed off Angel fans because of S8, the pissed off IDW fans whose canon is lost, and a good portion of the fandom hating Angel for killing Giles... I'm not expecting it to be sold out.

Do you think they're even out yet? I just googled and couldn't find anything, but I wasn't looking too hard. I had a hard time finding the comic- the 2 stores I frequent didn't have it, they were sold out, so I had to go to a 3rd (& got the last copy). However, all of those stores didn't order very many copies, so maybe it did better than anticipated. I went ahead and reserved copies for both series at my favorite store. (Those guys are so nice there, not as fancy and flashy as one of the others, but they went into great detail explaining the various colors of Green Lantern rings to my 4 year old. He stood there with his mouth open, enraptured LOL!)



Anyway, I'm rewatching AtS and am in season 3. I'm struck in these recent episodes I've been watching how Wesley in this season & Giles in season 8 are so similar. Both chasing after prophecies. Both overly concerned and overly burdened with the circumstances & with their "Slayers", despite the fact that neither of them are official members of the Council anymore. Both involved in betrayals. Of course it was Wesley clutching his slit throat in Sleep Tight that reminded me so much of Giles in this issue.

 

[Abby27]

Honestly. I feel like the death of Giles will bring in sales rather than hinder them, especially if they are pitching A&F as Giles being the third biggest character of the series. I mean, I have always loved BtVS more than Ats and really, would have no real desire to read any canon Angel comic (beside my overall desire for any canon in the Buffyverse). I am really upset Giles is dead, so the entire reason I am reading A&F is because Giles is going to be such a big part.

As trite and cliche as it is, the death of a main character, no matter how loved, usually boosts interest in the that verse even if it's for a while. I think the first issues will sell really well. Especially since the beginning and end dealt heavily with Giles.

 

[Kean]

white avenger agrees: Every time that I hear Angel claim to have no memory of certain parts of his Twilight possession, I can't help but remember Xander's hyena possession. He claimed not to remember, too.

He has no reason to lie. Loss of memory or not he has claimed total responsibility for all of Twilight's actions.

 

[The Scourge]

I never really cared when Buffy destroyed the seed in S8 (because I was so numbed by how awful the story was that nothing really phased at that point).

Now I care.

I asked Christos Gage if we will see Wesley or Lindsey since their souls are bound to Wolfram & Hart. He said no, and the since Buffy ended magic that Wolfram & Hart are probably doing a lot of divorce cases right now.

I laughed.

Then it sunk in and I cried.

Thanks a lot, Buffy!

 

[SpaceLord]

I know that a character is beyond help when I actually root for the bad guys, usually it's when I watch some really bad action movie with moronic plot and uninteresting good guys but with Angel they've managed to have his actions be really good reasons for wanting him dead.

 

[Abby27]

I know that a character is beyond help when I actually root for the bad guys, usually it's when I watch some really bad action movie with moronic plot and uninteresting good guys but with Angel they've managed to have his actions be really good reasons for wanting him dead.

I'm ready for Angel to be dust.

 

[LyteHouse]

I think I reread the first bit with Giles about 10 times before moving on. I LOVED getting to watch Giles do what he does and be awesome. It was absolutely enlightening to watch him talk of his profession and kids and the whatnot.

Yeah, I dug that too. I'm kinda hoping this series progresses like a Ripper Casebook. I wanna see more of Giles' Watcher/Demon Hunter/Detective/Warlock escapades.

Christ, how good would have a full blown Ripper TV series have been? 🙁

 

[The Scourge]

Wow, I can't believe this title is so great to Giles and he didn't get mentioned at all in Buffy's comic.

Weird.

 

[brinkster130]

I know that a character is beyond help when I actually root for the bad guys, usually it's when I watch some really bad action movie with moronic plot and uninteresting good guys but with Angel they've managed to have his actions be really good reasons for wanting him dead.

I'm ready for Angel to be dust.

Just out of curiosity...What do you guys think that solve? And by wanting him dead are you hoping that he kills himself or that someone kills him?

Either way, it wouldn't bring Giles back or change what happened with Twilight. Plus death seems like an easy (cowardly) way out...and I don't see Angel accepting that.

 

[The Scourge]

I'd rather the writers from season 8 to be dust, myself. The jerks who screwed around with Angel's character.

Or if not dusted, fired. That seems a bit tamer. 🙂

---------- Post added at 07:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

Seems like the sales for the first issue were good. Dark Horse's best selling title in August, and [HASHTAG]#104[/HASHTAG] overall.

Among the premier publishers, Dark Horse Comics' Angel and Faith #1, the first issue of a new series set in Joss Whedon's universe of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, was their top-selling book

Source

 

[Buffy4ever2k10]

Wow, I can't believe this title is so great to Giles and he didn't get mentioned at all in Buffy's comic.

Weird.

My thoughts exactly. I really like the new series and Angel and Faith are pretty interesting characters. I´m the only one who has never heard of Pearl or Nash or even seen them in season 8?

I have to admit that the scene with Jenny and Giles made me almost cry and i´m glad they included her but in the same moment they took that memory away from him. That was so sad and cruel...

I love the artwork and the expressions are very well drawn and you can identify the characters right away. I have huge problems identifying the characters in the new season 9. I´m glad they hired someone else for the Angel and Faith issue.

I didn´t followed AtF that much but i guess that´s over anyways though it doesn´t matter but i really liked the hell A part. I really hope Gunn,Illyria and Connor are mentioned in the next issues. I would love to see Illyria join their team. 😀

 

[Enemies]

I haven't read through the whole discussion as I don't want tor ead spoilers relating to ATF as I haven't read it yet. I really enjoyed reading Angel and Faith #1 it had all the right amounts of sadness and greatness you'd come to expect from BtVS and AtS. I agree with others comments that the Whistler scene was strange for me as well and I don't understand why they're going to try and bring Giles back, although imo I always thought Giles would never be killed off so this was shocking to me last season. Looking forward to reading more 🙂

 

[SpaceLord]

Just out of curiosity...What do you guys think that solve? And by wanting him dead are you hoping that he kills himself or that someone kills him?

Either way, it wouldn't bring Giles back or change what happened with Twilight. Plus death seems like an easy (cowardly) way out...and I don't see Angel accepting that.

Hmm after Faith went on her little killer bender she was sent to jail by Angel (sort of) but now Angel has so much more blood on his hands yet he just gets to go feel bad.

Besides that if the history of Angel has taught us anything is that he will do this for a while get bored and then cause even more death and destruction to the world so I don't only see dusting as a punishment but eliminating his future disasters.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Hmm after Faith went on her little killer bender she was sent to jail by Angel (sort of) but now Angel has so much more blood on his hands yet he just gets to go feel bad.

Besides that if the history of Angel has taught us anything is that he will do this for a while get bored and then cause even more death and destruction to the world so I don't only see dusting as a punishment but eliminating his future disasters.

Angel is a character who is flawed, and that is arguably his greatest feature. He screws up and makes mistakes but he never stops fighting (Not Fade Away being the best example). A&F also established that Angel is past "feeling bad", he's accepted what he's done and decided bringing back Giles is the best solution. Will he succeed? Or will he learn the errors of his ways? No one knows. But at the core he just wants to make things right.

Will Angel kill others in the future? There's a possibility, but everybody has the ability to take a life, and if a normal human was possessed like Angel was with Twilight for example, then everyone should be considered a threat. Should Angel be killed for something he did when he had little-to-no control over himself? Even though he's not evil in any way? I don't believe so

And it's not like Angel has gone around screwing up since he became a vampire. He's changed lives, saved souls and given some good people like Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne and Fred the opportunity to help others and find their own redemption on a much larger scale than if they tried to do it on their own

 

[The Scourge]

If Angel should be killed for what he's done with a soul, so should half the Buffyverse. And then we'd have no more stories left.

 

[SpaceLord]

Angel is a character who is flawed, and that is arguably his greatest feature. He screws up and makes mistakes but he never stops fighting (Not Fade Away being the best example). A&F also established that Angel is past "feeling bad", he's accepted what he's done and decided bringing back Giles is the best solution. Will he succeed? Or will he learn the errors of his ways? No one knows. But at the core he just wants to make things right.

Will Angel kill others in the future? There's a possibility, but everybody has the ability to take a life, and if a normal human was possessed like Angel was with Twilight for example, then everyone should be considered a threat. Should Angel be killed for something he did when he had little-to-no control over himself? Even though he's not evil in any way? I don't believe so

And it's not like Angel has gone around screwing up since he became a vampire. He's changed lives, saved souls and given some good people like Wesley, Cordelia, Gunn, Lorne and Fred the opportunity to help others and find their own redemption on a much larger scale than if they tried to do it on their own

Not that I wanted to get into this since my original point was that they have run this character so helplessly into the ground I'm now actually on the side of the "bad guys" but I just had to respond to this.

NFA, if I'm not misstaken he created a situation without thought or consideration to how it would affect anyone but himself and we ended up with him getting L.A. sent to hell and of course after that he came of as the big hero who saved the city even though his reckless actions sent them to hell in the first place.

Angel learning the errors of his way? Hmm has hell frozen over and I wasn't told?

Hmm so twilight just showed up and took over and he had no say in it what so ever? Must have missed that part of the story but I guess when you whitewash you go all out. Yes most people have the capacity to take a life but Angel doesn't not take a life to stop some evil doers he sacrifices life for his own agenda there is a huge difference there or wouldn't you say?

Saving souls. Lets do some guesstimate, even if we don't count the people he killed while he was Angelus I would think the number of people that must have been killed during Twilight is far more than the number that he managed to save.