Discussion of Buffy 11.01 "The Spread of Their Evil" - Released 11/23/16 (Dark Horse)

[wickedwillow]

Alternatively - it's what's important to Dawn. It's Dawn's viewpoint and not one shared by the comic? TBH, I'm in the minority - I don't have a problem with any of the comics so it's probably wise to ignore me. 😉

Do you think the most important thing to Dawn is Buffy's relationship to Angel and Spike? Because she thinks it shows how warm and special Buffy is as a person that technically dead men fall in love with her?

I'm really glad the comics exist, but am a little unsure of the writing and arts in places.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

This is me stubbornly refusing to believe that what Dawn admires most about her sister is that she loved two vampires. When her sister died for her, to save the world and when her list of accomplishments are so so many.

That being said maybe it is all just meant to be exposition seeing as that Dawn is acknowledging Buffy loves Spike from the very first issue and Buffy isn’t contradicting her. If so it’s clumsy exposition and I don’t like it. 🙂

 

[TriBel]

Do you think the most important thing to Dawn is Buffy's relationship to Angel and Spike? Because she thinks it shows how warm and special Buffy is as a person that technically dead men fall in love with her?

I'm really glad the comics exist, but am a little unsure of the writing and arts in places.

At that moment in time - it could be. I'd have to go back to the comic to check. The point I'm making is, I'm reluctant to put things down to poor writing. People's priorities change; people project their own feelings, their own desires on to others. It could be that at that moment in time, Dawn believes a stable relationship is the most important thing in the world. It doesn't mean she'll think the same in 12 months time. Seems to me that the Giles mini and Angel 11 are concerned both with how characters see themselves, how they see others and how they want to be seen by others - it's the reason mirrors figure so strongly in both. That aside - a) this conversation is the one Gage admits he returns to in S12 and b) Dawn's not listing the most important things Buffy's ever done - she citing the NOVEL things - the things that differentiate Buffy from other Slayers. I'm presuming other slayers have stopped an apocalypse in their time. 🙂

 

[Mrs Gordo]

It could be that at that moment in time, Dawn believes a stable relationship is the most important thing in the world.

But she isn’t referencing any stable relationship. Dawn says “You fell in love with a vampire. Two of them.” So Dawn isn’t amazed by her relationship status she is pointing out her ability to fall in love with vampires as a Slayer is what us amazing about her.

And I see your point, she is talking about things that she has done that no other Slayer has (that we know). But there are many other things Buffy has done that make her unique. Died and came back twice, her ability to work as a team rather than alone, her resistance of the Watcher’s Council’s control over her, survived as many years as she has... etc we have 7 full seasons of show telling us how Buffy was unique. I understand her falling in love with Angel and later Spike is also unique but it strikes me as odd that Dawn would list that of all of the many other things she has done that set her apart.

 

[TriBel]

I understand her falling in love with Angel and later Spike is also unique but it strikes me as odd that Dawn would list that of all of the many other things she has done that set her apart.

As I said - I think this is the speech Gage returns to in S12. The implication being that unless something significant happened "off page" that the writers hadn't planned for (thus necessitating a change in direction), it was written with future storylines in mind. Perhaps falling in love with a vampire; the Magic Council or the Chosen spell (the three examples Dawn gives) are pivotal in 12). IDK - I can see a way in which all three have significance.

 

[Grace]

The implication being that unless something significant happened "off page" that the writers hadn't planned for (thus necessitating a change in direction), it was written with future storylines in mind.

Can I ask what makes you think that? My impression, based on Gage's comment, was only that he chose to revisit that conversation in Season 12 on purpose, not necessarily that it was setting up any future plot points. I guess I took it to mean that he wanted to show there was at least some precedent established for Buffy feeling unsettled during quiet periods and that maybe she didn't do well in her relationship with Spike in that context.

I understand her falling in love with Angel and later Spike is also unique but it strikes me as odd that Dawn would list that of all of the many other things she has done that set her apart.

I think, looking back on the season, that Dawn probably pointed that out because Buffy's ability to love (and allow herself to be loved) in a romantic context was one of the themes. But I agree it's clunky and doesn't feel right for Dawn to say, given their relationship.

 

[TriBel]

he wanted to show there was at least some precedent established for Buffy feeling unsettled during quiet periods

. There's precedence set up all over the shop. There's also countless comments that cast doubt on whether the situation in S12 is "organic" or spell-created (comments made by Giles in the mini; the ourobous that still has a tail/tale structure of the mini - serpents/snakes goes someway to answering your query about Blue and the apple. Willow's discussion of the witches rede and the rule of three at the beginning of S11. D'Hoffryn's offer to grant their wishes/secret desires at the end of S10. The allusion to The Shining - compare with Fred's remarks at the end of A11). The point I'm making is - I don't think we should be ready to dismiss things as poor writing (so nothing new there). We'll probably never agree on this - I think the writing is extremely clever - others don't.🙂

 

[Grace]

The point I'm making is - I don't think we should be ready to dismiss things as poor writing (so nothing new there). We'll probably never agree on this - I think the writing is extremely clever - others don't.🙂

I think, in general, the fandom does cry "bad/lazy writing" too often (and people often suggest fixes that make little sense). I think in this instance, some of us are reacting to the tinge of sexism in that line, and I think that's justified. Sometimes people can understand what the writer is going for (or, at least, think they do!) and still not like the execution.

 

[wickedwillow]

. The point I'm making is - I don't think we should be ready to dismiss things as poor writing (so nothing new there). We'll probably never agree on this - I think the writing is extremely clever - others don't.🙂

Is it bad writing though, if the writer fails to clearly get across their intention and leaves a lot of the fandom thinking Dawn is shallow? I think it is difficult to judge these things, as a lot of things that are considered artistically great by a few are hated by the majority, whereas trashy stuff can be very popular.