Discussion of Buffy 11.09 - Released 7/19/17 (Dark Horse)
- Thread starter Blair
- Start date
white avenger
white avenger
This makes me think about "Something Blue," the episode that was, supposedly, a test to see how the fans would react to a Buffy/Spike romance. Now, remember back when Buffy thought that she was pregnant, and Spike was the one who gave her the main support? Could we see history repeating itself? And, on that note, would a Spuffy offspring be like Connor, or just a normal, healthy, happy kid?
(Incidentally, if Spike and Buffy were to have a daughter, they would have to name her Peggy, because a peg is a little spike)
As for Faith moving over to Buffy's magazine as a regular, I'm all for it. I've always wanted Buffy and Faith to be close friends, and tossing Spike into the mix makes for some potentially very, very interesting story ideas.
TriBel
Scooby
I
What fascinates me is - Angel/Twilight offered her a perfect life in the Paradise dimension (no analysis necessary - Paradise is Heaven - it's the logic of future anterior - you project an illusionary past into the future). PLUS - it wasn't a new world - the only way they could imagine it was by repeating their past (I think someone had read Karl Marx). PLUS - it didn't have her friends there. It was a utopia and utopias can't change yadda...yadda... The Twilight creature referred to her as Mother and said "Mother rejected me for lack of conflict" (so one "baby" that doesn't come to fruition). Also, she comes back and has fantasies about Spike but he (idiot that he is!!) misunderstands her. Then there's the Buffybot episode where she thinks she's pregnant and is going for an abortion (as you mentioned - Spike supports her - "Baby 2") Andrew's created her an "ideal life" (if Ikea counts as ideal) but she rejects that idea and says she wants to work for it (I think). She was going to leave with Spike and changed her mind. He goes off in a huff because he's fed up with being her dark place (he's finally grown a pair but then he mopes about on the dark side of the moon). Now - her life wasn't ideal but it was good. She's got all her friends with her but you have the problem with the government dividing "Normals" from "Magic people". Here's an idea - she's pregnant - Harmony puts her on telly and says "look...magics aren't all bad"...yadda...yadda...yadda and everybody goes Aaahh! Government stop what you're doing and lets restore the balance in the universe. Spike, Dawn, Faith etc. can share the childcare for Peggy! I think FLOW suggested something similar. (It was the covers for the next few comics that intrigued me).
No...it wouldn't be Connor because a) she's been feeding Spike so he might be slightly more human. Plus she had her magic removed within 12 hours of having sex so I presume the sperm and egg would be normal. BUT she had her magic restored early enough for it to cross the placenta (I'm not an authority on this!). So it might have some superpowers but not be a vampire. Genetic modification? Sperm washing?
All the yadda...yadda...yaddas are because I'm writing this at 5.00 AM. I've been awake for 24 hour now!
What fascinates me is - Angel/Twilight offered her a perfect life in the Paradise dimension (no analysis necessary - Paradise is Heaven - it's the logic of future anterior - you project an illusionary past into the future). PLUS - it wasn't a new world - the only way they could imagine it was by repeating their past (I think someone had read Karl Marx). PLUS - it didn't have her friends there. It was a utopia and utopias can't change yadda...yadda... The Twilight creature referred to her as Mother and said "Mother rejected me for lack of conflict" (so one "baby" that doesn't come to fruition). Also, she comes back and has fantasies about Spike but he (idiot that he is!!) misunderstands her. Then there's the Buffybot episode where she thinks she's pregnant and is going for an abortion (as you mentioned - Spike supports her - "Baby 2") Andrew's created her an "ideal life" (if Ikea counts as ideal) but she rejects that idea and says she wants to work for it (I think). She was going to leave with Spike and changed her mind. He goes off in a huff because he's fed up with being her dark place (he's finally grown a pair but then he mopes about on the dark side of the moon). Now - her life wasn't ideal but it was good. She's got all her friends with her but you have the problem with the government dividing "Normals" from "Magic people". Here's an idea - she's pregnant - Harmony puts her on telly and says "look...magics aren't all bad"...yadda...yadda...yadda and everybody goes Aaahh! Government stop what you're doing and lets restore the balance in the universe. Spike, Dawn, Faith etc. can share the childcare for Peggy! I think FLOW suggested something similar. (It was the covers for the next few comics that intrigued me).
No...it wouldn't be Connor because a) she's been feeding Spike so he might be slightly more human. Plus she had her magic removed within 12 hours of having sex so I presume the sperm and egg would be normal. BUT she had her magic restored early enough for it to cross the placenta (I'm not an authority on this!). So it might have some superpowers but not be a vampire. Genetic modification? Sperm washing?
All the yadda...yadda...yaddas are because I'm writing this at 5.00 AM. I've been awake for 24 hour now!
I like Faith, but I don't want her to stay with BtVS. I don't think she's a good fit at all. She undermines Buffy's authority, and takes away from the Buffy and Willow's newly strengthened friendship by becoming the third wheel. Her relationship with Xander could be uncomfortable for Dawn, becasue you know Faith will bring it up at the worst possible moment. I'd much prefer is she went back to Angel . . . or maybe joined Giles and helped him fight evil at his new school.
Blair
Vamp Blair
Faith is an alpha female, just like Buffy is. Hence they always have butted heads, and I think Spike even though he's all tough and what not, knows that Buffy is the one in charge despite his machoness.
Faith and Giles teaming up wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd wonder if Giles could be one of those super smart kiddos who blazes through the grades and Faith could possibly finish her education. I mean, look at Sunnydale High, heaps of evil in the school.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
Is Faith really an alpha? She wants Buffy's approval and gets angry when she thinks she does not get it. To me, she is somewhat similar to Spike.
HowiMetdaSlayer
possibly more Beta?
Blair
Vamp Blair
I think one of the prerequisites for being a Slayer is being an alpha on some level- Kennedy for instance.
I reckon that Faith has some alpha instincts but maybe still bowed down to Buffy because she was the Slayer first? Sure Faith has a temper and gets angry when she doesn't get her own way but I'd say the way she was brought up had a fair bit to do with that. Like, in the end of season 9 she turns away from Angel and says she wants to go off on her own (I haven't read season ten so I don't know what happens) but I think she certainly has an independent streak and is determined to have some leadership like she did was Nadia and the other girls in season 9.
I reckon that Faith has some alpha instincts but maybe still bowed down to Buffy because she was the Slayer first? Sure Faith has a temper and gets angry when she doesn't get her own way but I'd say the way she was brought up had a fair bit to do with that. Like, in the end of season 9 she turns away from Angel and says she wants to go off on her own (I haven't read season ten so I don't know what happens) but I think she certainly has an independent streak and is determined to have some leadership like she did was Nadia and the other girls in season 9.
white avenger
white avenger
Maybe they're priming Faith for her own title, either with Giles or some other support crew, maybe part of Angel's LA crew, if there are any still around. She and Gunn might make a good team. They could take Giles, or maybe they could figure a way to get Wes back, though it would be better if he got back with Fred/Illyria if he ever did come back.
I think that's why Buffy and Faith cannot work together for any length of time, they both want to be in charge. Faith will only take orders from Buffy for so long before she'll rebel and petty jealousy will rear it's head again. If they are ever to be friends, they have to keep a distance.
For me, the only way Faith would work on the BtVS team is if she and Willow become an item, so Willow becomes Faith's distraction from becoming focused on Buffy. Do you think that could work?
Blair
Vamp Blair
I would so ship Willow and Faith. Would they actually work though? I think Willow has gotten to the point of burying the hatchet with Faith- hugging her in season 9 of Angel & Faith, compared to how she treated Faith in season 7. Would Willow actually develop feelings for Faith? I doubt it, I'd still think that she would be loyal to Buffy over what happened in the past.
I'm not sure Faith could carry her own title, though she does have a lot of fans. I do like the idea of her with Gunn and Giles, that would be a small tight-knit crew. I'd much prefer it if Wesley didn't come back. Too many characters have been bought back and it just reduces their sacrifice if they can always be resurrected. Wesley's story is over, I'd much rather he stay dead.
My biggest hope, and the one that may save the Angel title, is that Faith goes back to Angel. The current season of Angel is very poor and that's partly because Faith isn't there.
W
WillowFromBuffy
Guest
I think a Willow / Faith relationship could work because Faith and Buffy would be friends and that would allow Willow to be more accepting of Faith. I thnk it would definitely have to be a slow burn, but it could be done.
As always, I admire your well thought-out argument WFB 😀 Are you saying you don't ship Fillow?
Blair
Vamp Blair
Not going to lie, I'd love to see that happen. Better than that other girl that Willow is lusting over
HowiMetdaSlayer
agreed - Cassiope has to go
Finally got my copy! Loved it. The fight scenes were amazing, and it really works having Buffy, Willow and Faith together, they do make a good team. It's always nice when Buffy says she isn't normal and doesn't want to be and I like that Faith is there as she is probably the one who understands how Buffy feels more than anyone else.
Of course Spike is a highlight for me, and the Spuffy kiss is adorable. Not sure I like Faith; 'Still?' & Willows: 'We're all pleasantly surprised', but that's just my Spuffy heart nitpicking, and maybe the audience are meant to read that as a confirmation that this relationship is going to last.
This issue was really exciting, loved the fights, esopecially Jordan getting her sorry ass kicked, and seeing Vicki again. Interesting to see Buffy joining forces with the new vampires, with Spike as the go-between, and wondering how this detente could be used in the future.
@TriBel One thing I did notice was when they were all stood on the bridge on the final page, there are lots of children, including a babe in arms . . . maybe Buffy (or Willow, as the baby is between them) can see babies in her future.
I'm slowly becoming a Fillow shipper myself, and call me crazy but I see Faith as an inbetween Tara and Kennedy, Faith has the depth of character and the bad history of a Tara, while also the strength and power of Kennedy . . .
Of course Spike is a highlight for me, and the Spuffy kiss is adorable. Not sure I like Faith; 'Still?' & Willows: 'We're all pleasantly surprised', but that's just my Spuffy heart nitpicking, and maybe the audience are meant to read that as a confirmation that this relationship is going to last.
This issue was really exciting, loved the fights, esopecially Jordan getting her sorry ass kicked, and seeing Vicki again. Interesting to see Buffy joining forces with the new vampires, with Spike as the go-between, and wondering how this detente could be used in the future.
@TriBel One thing I did notice was when they were all stood on the bridge on the final page, there are lots of children, including a babe in arms . . . maybe Buffy (or Willow, as the baby is between them) can see babies in her future.
I'm slowly becoming a Fillow shipper myself, and call me crazy but I see Faith as an inbetween Tara and Kennedy, Faith has the depth of character and the bad history of a Tara, while also the strength and power of Kennedy . . .
Yes I think that was the way it came across. I took the 'Still?' to be an acknowledgement of some surprise but not in a mean or sarcastic way. I think Willow's response indicated they too had all thought it might end in angsty drama but are all pleased the two are managing to have an ongoing relationship. I think it was all supposed to be to the tone of 'good for them' to be breaking habits and making it work, rather than any pointed 'never thought they stood a chance' kind of thing.
Blair
Vamp Blair
Yes! This I can get behind in full support. I think if Faith ever let her guard down around Willow and let her in, they would be an incredible couple. Especially now that Willow can really empathise with what it's like going "evil". Unlike her season four self of just dismissing Faith's actions entirely and writing her off. Look at some of the times when Willow went all Dark Willow... Her and Faith can really relate.
I ship it. And that comes from a hardcore Tillow fan.
TriBel
Scooby
Fillow? Wow! I'd got Faith pegged as totally hetero so that's too far out on the left field for me to catch! Please bear in mind two of my lads are gay and when they came out it was a bit like Andrew so I have some experience. That said - it would fit in nicely with the idea I have of new social couplings (I'm not saying homosexual couplings are new - just what F and W represent). Yay...I'm really liking Fillow!
Spike - Buffy. Is she ever going to say "I love you" or just demonstrate she does? Is it making a point that words are easy - deeds aren't? I can say "I love you" to my lads and I do but what it really means is "This phone conversation has finished - yes - I'll lend you some money but go away and let me get on with my life (sort of thing)? The point I'm making is - has the phrase become a bit redundant (like when he says "Who you gonna call"...can that phrase ever be used seriously again"? Maybe in End of Days when he gets huffy/disappointed about "Does it have to mean something" he misunderstood her (the context of the discussion was what words meant)? Perhaps she meant "what I'm feeling can't be described because the words aren't available to describe it"? I can support this with some ridiculously overcomplicated theoretical clap-trap but I'm on leave and not working (ha!) so I won't. I can also get the visuals in Touched to back it up but that's even more speculative?
Babies - bridges - why didn't I see that!!
Also - I have no idea where this post is going!
Yup...it's working for me! Does anyone have Whedon's email address?
Blair
Vamp Blair
Possibly send Dark Horse an email. Goes straight to the artists and producers I believe 😉
Now excuse me, I have a Fillow fan fiction to write...
Now excuse me, I have a Fillow fan fiction to write...
TriBel
Scooby
Agree - the exchanges in the cemetery and the basement in Dirty Girls are stunning. I particularly like the "shot, reverse shots" (complicated by the male and female gazes) in the basement (when did Marsters ever look so "puckish"?). It's part support group and part foreplay. Then both move away when Buffy comes in. I like the fact that he implies he's missing the sex with Buffy. I wouldn't ship them - they'd burn out or kill each other in a week - but I like them together - they're very open. rather, he's open - some of hers is performance.
Envious - I can only write fiction when it's disguised as film/literary crit!
Blair
I'm currently writing a Tara/Faith fic but Fillow will be next!