Spoiler! Discussion of Buffy 9.05 "Slayer Interrupted"- Released 01/11/12 (Dark Horse)

[brinkster130]

You're right, Spike should be able to tell that she had sex and he would be able to tell who it was (if he knew him). I can't imagine Spike not talking to Buffy already and being fine with her patrolling if he knew she was pregnant. Perhaps he can tell it is a mystical pregnancy so he isn't going to react until he knows more about it.

 

[Abby27]

Hmmm...if Spike has been being protective of her from the beginning of the season because he can smell the pregnancy, that would point to Angel being the father. Or, that Xander and Buffy hooked up during the months between 8.40 and 9.1 and that's the secret they are referring to in issue 1. Hmmm...

But again, it is being heavily implied that Buffy got pregnant at the party...

 

[ladydorotea]

She calls him Stalky the Clown at one point - meaning he has been hovering around all the time lately. It is possible IMHO that Spike knows since issue 1 or issue 40 S8 and prefers not to talk about it, but take action - ie stick around as much as possible instead of trying to talk her out of patrolling, which as we know from preview of #8 is impossible.

 

[Abby27]

Wow. They really might be making this Angel's baby.

I mean, he said Buffy doesn't know who the father is either. It would make sense, Buffy wouldn't think Angel could be the father. She might not even consider that a possibility.

 

[ladydorotea]

At least this scenario - Angel's baby - leaves everybody involved 'in character'. Buffy not jumping a complete stranger while drunk, Xander not cheating on Dawn, Spike being protective but not indifferent to Buffy making out with another guy under his nose, etc.

 

[Icarium]

She calls him Stalky the Clown at one point - meaning he has been hovering around all the time lately. It is possible IMHO that Spike knows since issue 1 or issue 40 S8 and prefers not to talk about it, but take action - ie stick around as much as possible instead of trying to talk her out of patrolling, which as we know from preview of #8 is impossible.

It makes no sense whatsoever that Spike won't talk to Buffy about the pregnancy. Leaving aside the possibility of a demonic pregnancy (or for Spike the even worse possibility of it being Angel's baby - a result of glowhypnol), Spike isn't a total idiot. He saw Buffy getting hammered at the party, do you really think he would assume Buffy lnpws she is pregnant but gets so drunk anyway or he would know she doesn't know but would decide not to tell her because...the plot says so? Face it, the baby isn't Angel's. If not for other reason then because Joss knows this would make half the Spuffy fans and many non-shippers stop reading while if Angel stays away in his comic the baby would do little to draw the Bangels back. Not to mention they have worked awfully hard to pretend the space frak never happened.

 

[Miss Kitty]

I don't think Spike already knows that she's pregnant, because in his Q/A, Allie said that in #7, :

Spoiler

"In "Buffy" #7, there's a fight that Spike insists she sit out of, and it does not sit well with her. "

If he already knows, I think he would have react this way sooner. One of the reasons he was having her back in the first issues is because he knew that "someone was coming for her". The other reason being (in my opinion) his feelings for her.

Concerning Angel, I'm convinced that he's not the father. Not seven months (at least) after what happened and while he's a vampire (I can see one of those two rules being broken because of mystical reason, but not both of them, at the same time, and while magic is gone, it's too big and sounds totally implausible to me). And I don't think that it's the story Joss wants to tell anyway. This season is supposed to be all about real life, it's a new start and I don't think he has the intention to make their stories related. What happened in season 8 will stay in season 8 in my opinion.

I highly doubt that it's Xander too. First of because I don't think he would have sex with her while she's drunk. And I don't see them sleeping together before the party either. Buffy feels easily guilty, and if she had slept with her sister's boyfriend, she never would have acted like if nothing happened in front of her/them. You always can tell when she's feeling guilty, she's obvious about it. And the way she talks about Xander in #5 definitely exclude that option in my opinion.

I think Buffy slept with a human guy at the party and simply doesn't remember it. I just hope that the guy was as much drunk as she was for accepting to have sex with a woman who's visibly drunk and not in control of herself...

 

[VisionGirl]

Concerning Angel, I'm convinced that he's not the father. Not seven months (at least) after what happened and while he's a vampire (I can see one of those two rules being broken because of mystical reason, but not both of them, at the same time, and while magic is gone, it's too big and sounds totally implausible to me).

It wasn't 7 months. It was more than 7 months between the publication of 8.39 and 9.1, but not that much time in the comics itself. Still, it has been too long for her to just realize she was pregnant and develop symptoms now. And I do agree with all of your other points. It seems highly unlikely that Angel is the father.

 

[Leeson]

Who knows, maybe Joss doesn't want them to be okay. Maybe he wants to create a different dynamic of Buffy's relationships. Giles is dead, Willow parts for an indefinite time... maybe Joss plans to estrangle Buffy from Xander and Dawn too.

That said, I doubts that Xander is the daddy. It's too weird and goes against everything I know about the characters.

See, while I don't believe Xander is the father, I don't disagree what Joss might make that decision re: dynamic. He did it in season seven to push Buffy toward Spike. He did it in season four to increase the pow factor of the adjoining spell. It's not unlike Joss to reassemble the character relationship dynamics for the sake of getting everything where he'd like it. And estranging her from the last people she has left? That's very Joss.

 

[Miss Kitty]

It wasn't 7 months. It was more than 7 months between the publication of 8.39 and 9.1, but not that much time in the comics itself.

I know, I based my estimation on what's been told to us in interviews 😉 I wish I could find the interview, but I remember that they said that 6 months passed between 8#39 and 8#40, and more than one month passed between 8#40 and 9#01 :

How much time has passed between #40 (present day - e.g. Buffy talking to Spike on the fire escape, Buffy being attacked by the three Slayers etc.) and #1 Freefall?

Scott: More than a month, less than a few.

(From a Scott Q/A).

Anyway, based only on the comics, that's less a certainty, but we know that at least two months passed between #39 and #40 (in the Spike one-shot, when he came back to Buffy, the calendar indicates that he was off 62 days in space with his bugs), and I guess that Buffy needed time for settling in San Fransisco and finding a job (like White Avenger pointed out earlier in the topic, if I'm not wrong). In #40, Buffy mentionned to his boss that she worked as a waitress for 4 months at this point. Based on those elements, we can estimate that 4 or 6 months passed between 8#39 and 8#40. Plus one or two months between 8#40 and 9#01.

We easily get seven months (at the very least).

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

You misinterpret me. I would have given up if I saw both of them making out casually with other people in front of each other at the same party - both drunk and not caring about each other. When they are torn apart and develop relationship with other people it is quite different. But this is something particular to Bangel - it can be put through a ringer and sent to Hell but never killed by indifference.

I see.

I'm still not clear, though. You say Buffy and Angel were "torn apart"? That's not how I remember it. How I remember it was that - the last time around - Angel left Buffy willingly, and she let him go. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, later in IWRY, Angel let's her go again. No one "tore them apart." They let each other go.

I'm not trying to be rude, I just think you're perhaps guilty of over-romanticizing Buffy and Angel's relationship top suit your 'ships needs. What about now? Do you think Buffy still loves Angel? After everything that's happened?

I assume you're referring to the infamous party in which Spike was making out with some girl on the couch while Buffy was in the same room? Yes, they were both drunk, but there is absolutely no indication that Spike and Buffy no longer care for each other. In fact, all signs point to the opposite. We know that no one was themselves at that party. Why should Buffy and Spike's action be taken literally? Plus, can you blame Spike for trying to move on?

---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 AM ----------

I just can't see how Buffy, Xander, and Dawn could ever be ok again.

Exactly. Dawn holds a mean grudge. She'd never forgive Buffy.

Who knows, maybe Joss doesn't want them to be okay. Maybe he wants to create a different dynamic of Buffy's relationships. Giles is dead, Willow parts for an indefinite time... maybe Joss plans to estrangle Buffy from Xander and Dawn too.

I sure hope not. That'd be very sad.

 

[ladydorotea]

I see.

I'm still not clear, though. You say Buffy and Angel were "torn apart"? That's not how I remember it. How I remember it was that - the last time around - Angel left Buffy willingly, and she let him go. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, later in IWRY, Angel let's her go again. No one "tore them apart." They let each other go.

Angel left because he is cursed and does not want her to 'be in the dark with him' forever tied to someone who cannot give her physical pleasure or normalcy she deserves. It was never meant to mean he stopped loving her romantically, as he kept coming back again and again. And it would have never occurred to these two to engage in casual sex with another around.

I'm not trying to be rude, I just think you're perhaps guilty of over-romanticizing Buffy and Angel's relationship top suit your 'ships needs.

I do not think that reading Joss' 'Buffy and Angel transcend everything' literally is over-romanticizing it. Please address Joss Whedon if you think he is over-romanticizing.

What about now? Do you think Buffy still loves Angel? After everything that's happened?

Of course she does. I had exchanged enough emails/ had enough conversations with the comic creative team, and saw enough other evidence to be sure she does. But this is not a place for such a discussion.

I assume you're referring to the infamous party in which Spike was making out with some girl on the couch while Buffy was in the same room?

She was not just in the same room at the time, she was supposedly having casual sex with another (mind that I don't believe it) while knowing Spike would smell it on her - and that after he stuck around her and proved his loyalty.

there is absolutely no indication that Spike and Buffy no longer care for each other. In fact, all signs point to the opposite. We know that no one was themselves at that party. Why should Buffy and Spike's action be taken literally? Plus, can you blame Spike for trying to move on?

I am not blaming, I am simply saying that I *personally* would not root for a relationship that is one continuous string of humiliating each other and/or seeking explanation of why are they not expressing their feelings - with both parties present in the same book, not cursed, not being threatened with beloved 's death, not having killed a father figure under influence, and not otherwise impaired to be with each other and enjoy intimacy and confidence.

I mean if they are *meant* to be what is stopping them? after all the walk through the fire pathos it is down to guzzling beer and shagging casually with another to pretend to moving on? And you seriously root for this ?

 

[Moscow Watcher]

If Jossverse was built on strict logic, the information introduced in the preview of #6 (vampires can smell pregnancy) would've been enough to exclude Angel from the list of possible fathers. Because no way Spike would've keep his big mouth shut when Buffy was patrolling, or drinking excessively, or carrying Andrew on her shoulders.

But Jossverse isn't logical: writers constantly rewrite their rules. Angel couldn't smell Cordelia's pregnancy in season 4. One can argue it was because Jasmine took measures to hide it. But it means that Joss and Co could go in the same direction about the hypothetical Bangel baby - mystical child, special circumstances, etc.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

About "transcends everything": it was said in spring 2003 when TheWB was agressively hyping BtVS finale as Buffy/Angel reunion. The PR department on TheWB was working hard to create the impression that the final episode was all.about.Bangel. Every article, every interview was focussed on David crossing over to BtVS. Everybody who was interviewed, was supposed to talk about Bangel.

TheWB expected the rating to go up. Instead, they went down for the episode in which Angel appears - End of Days.

http://buffy.tktv.net/Anno7/22.html

Touched - 2.6/4
End of Days - 2.4/4
Chosen - 2.9/5

There was an improvement for the final episode (22% increase) -- but finales of the shows usually get *much* bigger increase in viewership. For example, Dawson Creek that aired the same May 2003 on the same TheWB, got 3.3/5 for the penultimate episode, and 4.8/7 for the finale (45% increase).

http://dawsonscreek.tktv.net/Season6/23.html

I think it was quite a surprise for TheWB that their Bangel hype killed their ratings.

Funnily, the situation got repeated in 2010. DH was agressively hyping Bangel, providing shippers with many quotes to collect - yet didn't manage to increase sales that dropped from 47,013 for #31 to 45,446 for #35.

 

[white avenger]

I assume you're referring to the infamous party in which Spike was making out with some girl on the couch while Buffy was in the same room? Yes, they were both drunk, but there is absolutely no indication that Spike and Buffy no longer care for each other. In fact, all signs point to the opposite. We know that no one was themselves at that party. Why should Buffy and Spike's action be taken literally? Plus, can you blame Spike for trying to move on?

While I don't personally believe that Spike is the mysterious father in question, he definitely COULD have been Buffy's unknown lover in Issue 1, especially if her table dance was just a continuation of her obvious coming on to him in the doorway. Seeing him with another girl infuriates her, she drags Spike away to her room, strictly to get some issues straightened out (FINALLY she addresses his "No, you don't. But thanks for saying it," comment) A heated conversation develops into an argument, maybe Buffy even takes a swing at Spike (and we all know what an aphrodisiac violence seems to be for them) and finally, they manage, after dismantling most of Buffy's room, to NOT miss the bed this time.

So, why hasn't Spike mentioned it all this time? Because he just figures that he was Buffy's "dirty little secret" once more, especially since she never brings it up again.

Or maybe this new medication is screwing my mind up again.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

ladydorotea: But of course we all know that Mr. Whedon cares most about his ratings, not about his story - that's why he is so eager to kill most popural and beloved characters and end so many annoying one alive and kicking... wait, this logic is flawed, I fear.

Joss doesn't care about ratings, but he can't sidestep PR campaigns. He had to pander to Bangel fans because they were very loud and passionate.

As to killing popular and beloved characters, he always brought them back, with the exception of Tara - but it was Amber Benson's decision, not Joss'.

 

[ladydorotea]

Joss doesn't care about ratings, but he can't sidestep PR campaigns. He had to pander to Bangel fans because they were very loud and passionate.

As to killing popular and beloved characters, he always brought them back, with the exception of Tara - but it was Amber Benson's decision, not Joss'.

Jenny is not back, not is Cordelia, nor is Fred or Wesley, and I doubt Giles will be back either.

I can point out at Joss' other related commentary 'our ratings are low , so lets bring back Spike' as an example of him bowing to the pressure on the opposite side, and then we can go into the endless argument of whether Joss would have brought Spike back if not for the WB pressure... or why he wrote the script of the last season of Buffy's finale so that Buffy kisses Angel on the mouth for full five minutes or so and then promises him future together - and you will keep arguing it was all for PR. I know fandom developed a set of myths over the years that are ingrained and supported by many layers of inner fanon propaganda, and I have no wish to go into argument over each one of your lines of layered defenses. 🙂 It is quite sufficient to me to comprehend that in S8 Spike comes back in a 'ship' - and Angel basically repeats his S2 plot with variations and is sent to Purgatory once again. If making out in space as Gods with Universe destroying consequences is not 'transcend everything' enough for you, then there is no point to continue.


PS

My point is - I don't believe Joss will bow to PR pressure enough to outright lie to the fandom. He could have said Buffy and Angel is an epic romance and left it at that.

 

[EVIL UU]

Tonight on "The Passions Of Lady Summers"

* Buffy is pregnant but who is the father? Was she raped?

* Willow is leaving because we have no idea what to do with her. Will she play with Dracula's sword?

* Pixies! Zompires! Spike!

Guys, I'm done. If I wanted a soap opera I'd watch...well, "The Bold and the Beautiful" I guess. Seriously, I'm just pissed off that Buffy #56-#59 will be confused with this drivel.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

[MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] - I could argue that Cordelia and Wesley were brought back in comics supervised by Joss. I don't want to discuss Fred till the end of season 9, because back in 2004 there were very persistent rumors that Joss wanted to bring back Fred on AtS (a TV show), because he wanted to make Wesley choose between Fred and Illyria.

And - we'll see about Giles. So far, it's the main intrigue on A&F, and I don't think Joss plans an epic disappointment for the fandom.

But if you "have no wish to go into argument over each one of {my} lines of layered defenses", let's leave it at that. It's not fun to argue if you perceive me as somebody who has to defend herself against your "attacks."

 

[Icarium]

About "transcends everything": it was said in spring 2003 when TheWB was agressively hyping BtVS finale as Buffy/Angel reunion. The PR department on TheWB was working hard to create the impression that the final episode was all.about.Bangel. Every article, every interview was focussed on David crossing over to BtVS. Everybody who was interviewed, was supposed to talk about Bangel.

TheWB expected the rating to go up. Instead, they went down for the episode in which Angel appears - End of Days.

BtVS S7 aired on UPN, not the WB. [/nitpick] And in any event, ratings going down are much easier to explain with the abysmal overall quality of the show. Or maybe the Bangel shippers knew that Joss was just stringing them along once more, with even less feeling.

Joss doesn't care about ratings, but he can't sidestep PR campaigns. He had to pander to Bangel fans because they were very loud and passionate.

He panders to Bangel and Spuffy fans, mind you.

My point is - I don't believe Joss will bow to PR pressure enough to outright lie to the fandom. He could have said Buffy and Angel is an epic romance and left it at that.

But where would be the fun in that? He enjoys stringing shippers along.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Come on people, let's me nice. Let's remember that debating is supposed to be fun, and not to take other fans' opposing opinions personally.

Read this. It's good for a laugh, and relates to what we've been discussing.