Do Angel and Spike even WANT to become humans?

[Zeppo]

Hmm, interesting theory. Why do you think the Oracles were specifically referring to the Scourge, I never surmised that before.

It's just a guess based on how Doyle described them and that it was the first real big catastrophe after IWRY. I'd hafta watch IWRY and Hero again to remember why I guessed that. I mean, it's just a guess and would make sense as Angel would not have been able to have taken them as a human and they are strong. Assuming the Powers were telling the truth .. ooh, I think I have an idea for a new topic ...

EDIT: I found some support that may have put that idea in my head:

Angel (from IWRY): "The Mohra demon said the end of days had begun. That others were coming, soldiers of darkness. I need to know if he was telling the truth."
Man: "As far as such things can be told."
Angel: "What happens to the Slayer when these soldiers come?"
Woman: "What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her case."

That could be anything. The Scourge was very militant so in taking the word "soldier" litterally it is possible, I think.

 

[ticonderouga]

It's just a guess based on how Doyle described them and that it was the first real big catastrophe after IWRY. I'd hafta watch IWRY and Hero again to remember why I guessed that. I mean, it's just a guess and would make sense as Angel would not have been able to have taken them as a human and they are strong. Assuming the Powers were telling the truth .. ooh, I think I have an idea for a new topic ...

EDIT: I found some support that may have put that idea in my head:

Angel (from IWRY): "The Mohra demon said the end of days had begun. That others were coming, soldiers of darkness. I need to know if he was telling the truth."
Man: "As far as such things can be told."
Angel: "What happens to the Slayer when these soldiers come?"
Woman: "What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her case."

That could be anything. The Scourge was very militant so in taking the word "soldier" litterally it is possible, I think.

You may be right, but why would Buffy be involve with the Scourge? Remember, she was fully involved in stopping the Initiative and Adam at that Point. Now there's a thought, could the Oracles have been talking about the Initiative, the whole Soldiers of darkness would certainly fit with Adam's ultimate agenda.

 

[Zeppo]

You may be right, but why would Buffy be involve with the Scourge? Remember, she was fully involved in stopping the Initiative and Adam at that Point. Now there's a thought, could the Oracles have been talking about the Initiative, the whole Soldiers of darkness would certainly fit with Adam's ultimate agenda.

Not exactly, this episode was right after Pangs. Adam wasn't around then. Initiative was but they really didn't know anything about them until after Buffy visited LA.

She would be involved with The Scourge because I don't think she'd be leaving LA anytime soon now that she had her lover with her. Sunnydale had no immediate threat. Doyle was still around as a conduit to the Powers through the visions, someone would have to answer to them. And Buffy would do it, since Angel couldn't.

Sure, the Oracles could've been talking about The Initative, stretching the truth a bit to make Angel agree to go back in time so they could keep their champion.

 

[the pack]

The chip didn't change his personality. It just made him unable to bite so he did things for money so he could buy blood, to keep living. I don't see any connection between Angel's soul and Spike's chip. Maybe Spike's soul.

You know I really hate to belabor a point, but really, are you serious? Spikes a vampire! A notoriously bad one! Expert slayer killer! Killer of a little boy(annoying one). OK vampire, but still, little! Biting and killing humans is what vampire's do. It's what they live for. So your going to tell me that not being able to bite a human and feed didn't have a tremendous affect on him? You don't see the change in Spike in s4? I think maybe you should watch through season 2-5, because I think you may be blinded by Spike's gold locks!I'm willing to admit that eventually Spike's heart does change. You can call it love for Buffy. I prefer to call it his obsession with Buffy. I'm sure that Spike would turn evil again without his chip just as easily as Angel turns without his soul. You know if Spuffies have their way there will come a time when Spike would have never even been a vampire. I guess he was just pretending all that time. Geez I just remembered he's a rapist too!

 

[VisionGirl]

She would be involved with The Scourge because I don't think she'd be leaving LA anytime soon now that she had her lover with her. Sunnydale had no immediate threat. Doyle was still around as a conduit to the Powers through the visions, someone would have to answer to them. And Buffy would do it, since Angel couldn't.

Wow, that's really, really interesting. I never considered that. But it makes sense. It's interesting to think how different things would've been had Angel remained human after the events of IWRY.

 

[Konoe]

Supposedly, the reason that Angel renounced his humanity in "I Will Remember You" was because the Powers told him that Buffy would die trying to protect him (A half truth at best, since Buffy did, in fact, die anyway, protecting her sister at the end of Season 5) but I always saw a certain inconsistency there. Why couldn't human Angel be at least as good a demon fighter, and just as capable of protecting himself as Xander, Giles, Wes, Gunn, or any of the others? Given his two hundred plus years of experience in the vampire/demon community, he might have even had an advantage over them. So, was there another reason, one that Angel wasn't willing to admit, or even wasn't consciously aware of himself?

Those are all good reasons and so forth but looking at this in an ATS point of view since it was there we even found out about the powers. (Or more *shrug*)

Xander, Giles, Wes, Gunn, or any of the others?

Xander and Giles has Buffy most of the time. I could say I was shocked when they did that creepy scene and you thought something would happen to Giles and all.

Giles was trained or it would seem he was and since being a watcher he might have had some additional training just in case he ever got into trouble, another thing that could also be the answer would be that Buffy wasn't his first Slayer in Training so he had to learn in order for him to teach the Slayer about defending herself and what not.

Wes (On Buffy) seemed to be a new watcher and did things by the books in telling them and what not. It wasn't until Angel that he became all Rouge and sexy and MMm...but ok. Wes learned how to protect himself with weapons and it was gradual until he as all "I'M BADASS BITCH!"

Gunn has been hunting Vumpires for a while now...and it wasn't like he was usually by himself when he went hunting since they traveled in groups with each other. Doing this for some time it somewhat becomes second nature.

Xander...now I love Xander, but when he was hunting he always went with someone else like Anya and then that time when Buffy wasn't there they had Willow use her mind powers to help them fight! So it was always 2 people or 3+ never just them one on one.

NOW TO ANGEL! Angel being human he would lose a lot of his strength since he was a Vumpire. Also with that added strength he would also lost a bit of his swiftness and speed as a human. MOST IMPORTANTLY he would be a lot easier to kill since not being a Vumpire and then having a thing for having holes poked in him and what not could have killed him pretty badly. A bullet though his human heart, arteries and ect ect.

So a Human Angel would be a Weak Angel to a degree, but the things would have been how would the writers have done it because thinking about it could bring unlimited possibilities.

Human Angel wouldn't be the strongest kid on the block the way that Vampire Angel was. When he got hurt (this was mentioned in the episode) the pain didn't magically vanish, the injuries didn't conveniently heal themselves overnight. Assuming that as a human, he was at the peak of his physical development, simply the reality of normal aging was going to begin diminishing that, month by month, for the rest of his life. And his remaining life span was going to consist of, at best, decades rather than centuries. Even if he were allowed to spend those decades with the woman he loved, would that REALLY be preferable to immortality? That would be a hard decision for any man to make, even more so for one who already has that immortality and is considering giving it up. He KNOWS what he will be losing. Plus there is the uncertainty of whether he would actually be giving up all of that only to lose Buffy later (okay, the Powers' prophecy pretty made that a certainty, but even if that particular time could have been avoided, the Slayer's life is uncertain, at best. Would they have more than a few years together? All of that, either consciously or subconsciously, had to be running through Angel's mind when he made his bargain with the Powers.

Angel would have also have to think of the people he wouldn't be able to help. I guess you could say he loves Buffy...is possible, but to me he cared more about Cordelia and Darla then Buffy whatsoever. He might not have been able to feel happiness as a Vumpire since he was scared of it since his curse made it something big and he didn't want to turn back into Angelus. Still that wasn't enough for "The Love he has with Buffy" so he did the good thing and choose to help people.

As for Spike, I think that he is totally adjusted to and comfortable with his status as immortal, super powered demon fighter, Big Bad For The Bright Side, poet with the heart of a warrior, and warrior with the spirit of a poet. Other than ti irritate Angel, I strongly doubt that mortality has any real appeal to him. Being a vampire is just too damn much fun. Plus he knows, and accepts, the fact that age will almost never become a factor in determining the amount of time that he is allowed to have with Buffy. One, the other, or both, will almost certainly meet violent deaths long before that.

I agree! Spike just wanted to mess with Angel have take anything he wanted...Good or Bad! Spike was like a three year old going though there me Phase but never passing it at all!

I see Spike as this...Just the Mine thing sort of...

http://www.220.ro/desene-animate/Family-Guy-Stewie-Mine-Phase/3R1sTL4uRG/

 

[Chosen Enemy]

You know I really hate to belabor a point, but really, are you serious? Spikes a vampire! A notoriously bad one! Expert slayer killer! Killer of a little boy(annoying one). OK vampire, but still, little! Biting and killing humans is what vampire's do. It's what they live for. So your going to tell me that not being able to bite a human and feed didn't have a tremendous affect on him? You don't see the change in Spike in s4? I think maybe you should watch through season 2-5, because I think you may be blinded by Spike's gold locks!I'm willing to admit that eventually Spike's heart does change. You can call it love for Buffy. I prefer to call it his obsession with Buffy. I'm sure that Spike would turn evil again without his chip just as easily as Angel turns without his soul. You know if Spuffies have their way there will come a time when Spike would have never even been a vampire. I guess he was just pretending all that time. Geez I just remembered he's a rapist too!

You're putting words in my mouth. I know Spike is evil. It's not what I'm saying at all (what you said I said)! Spike is STILL evil in season 4 when he got the chip. Watch it again please, he's not changed! He just rights with the Scoobies because he needs things from them. He is still a killer, a slayer of slayers, still wants to bite people and do evil stuff. He doesn't do all the good things because he's changed and now he's good! (in season 4, pre Buffy's love).
And his love for Buffy only began an an obsesson. But it grew into love, somewhere in season 5. He was willing to die for her! That's not out of obsession! And if you cannot see that later on it's real love, you are truely blind. If you don't call all the things he's done for her love, let me also dismiss Angel's love for her, and Riley's love for her.

Fact is, the chip didn't change him. Not at all. Neither his obsession to Buffy. He only changed the way he looked at her at that point (obsession, pre love). He doesn't want to kill her anymore. But the good things he did were only for her, because she was all that mattered to him. He wasn't good yet. Just acted out of his obsesson to Buffy and the willing of being with her. The real change inside of him, where he started caring for others and do good things because he wants to and not because he regains somethng from it, comes because he fell in love with Buffy. For real. Even Bangels have to admt that it's love. Whoever can't see that this is love (middle season 5-????) is truely blind, I'm sorry.

 

[forget]

Angel gave it up so many times because he wanted to be redeemed. Not live as a human. He felt that if he was rewarded with life, not feeling the need to kill and be able to live in the sunlight, then it was because he earned it. Not because it was given to him, whether that was by accident or on purpose.

Spike doesn't want to be human. He just wants Buffy. I think he keeps fighting for it because Angel wants it and only one of them can have it (or so the prophecy says). I think he feels like it's the only thing that he has a chance of getting from Angel (since Angel "has" Buffy forever, no matter how much they are apart or whomever else they are with).

 

[Miss Kitty]

I don't think Spike wanted to be human (until season 5 of Angel at least). In Destiny, he had a lot of hate against Angel because of their past, and I think that's why he was so perseverant, a part of him wanted to take something from Angel, and honestly, I understand this... There was a lot of rancor, because Angel played a lot on his insecurities by the past (and still), and he needed this fight for exorcise all of the grievances he had during over 100 years. Drusilla and Buffy were one of the main examples (even if for Buffy, he was wrong to let his insecurities and fears gain the upper hand, because she was really in love with him -and she was the first woman who really loved him and said it to him, it reinforces his fears). But I don't think he would want to be human at this point of his evolution (he would need more time). I think he likes to be a vampire. On the other side, I can see him wanting to regain his humanity under some circumstances. Spike isn't the kind of guy who wants to be an hero, he's less attached to his powers in this regard. Beyond his sarcasm, I think he's a very human person, sensitive and close to the human/emotional part of him, even if he has his own way to handle it (and that's not always the best way, I really love how Damage -and Angel season 5- worked on his way of handle his past mistakes, it was totally different from Angel’s).
His relationship with Buffy could have some effects on his wishes of being human, in a way or another, but I think he'd rather be fighting side by side with her, supporting her at his best, and it would be more difficult to do this if he's human. That's a part of the force of their relationship. He's the man who's there for her and expect nothing in return, he had renounced to this on the moment he hurted her in Seeing Red in my opinion (and yes Spike, Buffy loves you, you're just too fearful for seeing it 😛 That's a part of his charm though 😛 ).

Angel, I'm not sure that he really wants it. I don't know… I think a part of him thinks he wants it, but that what he really wants to earn is his redemption, not his humanity. Being human would mean he's redeemed in his mind. But I'm not certain that a human life would really pleased him. He loves to be the Champion, the hero (that's good for the ego 😛 ). Being a normal guy, I don't know how he would live it...