Do the PTB care about Buffy?

So the powers that be are just observers of earth and manipulate elements of the world, eg cordelias visions? And Jasmine was also an observer who was able to come into this dimension? So the powers should be able to do the same right?

The oracles were a link to the powers that be?
Just like Hamilton was the link to the senior partners?
And the senior partners are the old ones who were before man and lived on earth with the powers that be?

I'm a little confused...
 
nerd4hire said:
Did the Powers ensoul men Goldenboy asks. God, I hope not. They seem so lame.
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I agree, it would totally suck, lol. It just struck me, cos Whistler (if he actually was an emissary for the PTB) mentioned the whole "balance between good and evil" thing. Why is it important to maintain a balance, not a defeat of evil?

I was just thinking that the Powers got tired, realized they could never actually "beat" the Old Ones...and just left. They know they can't win, so they ensouled humans to give them strength and the will to continue the battle in their stead. The Powers are lame. They just want to keep the struggle, the balance going on in perpetuity"”so they can have a comfy retirement. They check up on their kids, give them a few helpful hints now and then...Some of them"”like Jasmine"”get antsy, or bored, or crave power. It's the most cynical scenario I could think of. But the quote you mentioned from Jasmine made it seem like the Powers had nothing specific to do with humans' goodness or badness.

This seems like a vaguely Classical pagan universe, with cryptic Christian allusions and suggestions and overtones layered on top...which is pretty much how I've always felt about the 'verse.

You have various entities who seem to behave like capricious, petty pagan gods. Convoluted, possibly conflicting histories are recounted, depending on which entity you consult in the 'verse....

Yet, the Powers and the Old Ones seem somewhat analogous to the ancient angelic beings described in some strains of Christian theology. It goes something like...way back when, before the creation of the world, God created these angelic beings, and granted them free will to follow him, or be cast apart from him and follow the path of "evil". So, a split already existed. Then later, God creates Man, and a second split occcurs, among the loyal angels.

But, the Buffyverse "God", if he exists, seems completely remote, removed even from the "angels". There seems to be no ultimate, known explanation for "creation" in the verse...just various categories of beings who have free will and desires and aspirations. Some seem "better" than others...

Maybe the "˜verse actually is like a Christian universe. All beings have free will, choose their own path"”even Powers and Old Ones. Evil will never be eradicated by humans, and that's not the point. The point is, you do your own part to follow your conscience in this world. You may "fail" in this world, but you'll be rewarded in the next. Buffy's experience in "Heaven" would seem to suggest that. But again, I don't know of any direct evidence of an ultimate Power or ultimate source of goodness in the "˜verse.
 
Well I for one have always thought that The Powers chose who the potentials were and which potential became the next slayer. So if that was true then wouldn't that mean The Powers are some how intertwined with the Slayer? I personally thought that the three men who created the Slayer were under the power that be's command. Which would make sense of how three normal men could have the power to create the Slayer.
 
Well that's the thing though, they're not normal men. They're Shamans, or what you might convert into modern terminology as wizards. They tap into demon power, and inject it into the slayer. Why would they need the powers for that?

*

Goldenboy: No, there's not direct evidence of ultimate power, but really, is there direct evidence of anything? It's all pretty vague - and I would argue intentionally vague.

If you wanted to you could view Buffy from a creationist perspective, and find stuff to make yourself happy. You could say when Jasmine talks about being forged in the fires of creation she's saying something created her. On the other hand you could come at it from a Big Bang perspecive, and talk science.

If they make a metaphorical allusion to evil entering the world of the old ones, you could say this is something beyond their control, and therefore bigger than they are, at the same time Cordelia Chase reads the same passage and sees something completely different. Two perspectives using the same support to justify themselves - cool.

Joss Whedon himself - atheist that he is - says it's fine if you want to see the snow in Amends from a Christian perspective.

I like the one concerning how Buffy can bounce back from death, or near death with what appears to be greater strength. You can see that as Buffy being noticed, and helped by whatever kind of higher force you want to postulate, or you can just say Buffy got mad, or Buffy is drawing on her inner strength, or strength of the slayer.

The Buffyverse is presented in generalized terms and it allows you to justify what's happening from whatever view of the world you're coming from.
 
Yeah but what I'm saying is that the shaman's had to be given that power somehow, so that's where I think the PTB came in. Having the intent for them to create the slayer. Maybe, like Jasmine stated that all they were doing was "observing", so as to not interfere they gave the shaman the powers and then hoped they would create something like the slayer. Yeah I know, it's far fetched but that's the only way it makes sense to me without using the thought of magic, which IMO, is used to explain to many things in the show as it is, it's kinda like taking the easy way out by saying "oh well magic caused this". I just don't like it.
 
They used the essence of a demon, from the hart of a demon, I really dont see a connection!
 
yeah but I don't think any old person could just pull something like that off, they needed power and it's my personal belief the PTB provided that power.
 
So Willow, whose more powerful than them all combined, must've got her power from the powers that be?

I dont think so, I think the shadowmen were just powerful men.
 
I'm not saying that all people with magic recieved it from the powers that be, I just think that in some cases they were, like in the shamans case.
 
Personally I don't have a problem, if that's the way you see it. I only have a problem if you want to insist I see it that way too.
 
Why would PTB have cared for Buffy? She was the slayer (now a slayer), she would have standed against forces of darkness, alone.
 
Oh no no, that wasn't my intent at all. Sorry if it came out that way, it's just how I view things. By no means does anyone have to think of it that way, we've all got our own theories, right?
 
What's interesting to me is...exactly how much reverse engineering have the writers done in the 'verse? When did the Slayer mythology exist and when did the PTB concept exist? Did Joss develop the PTB concept when he started formulating the Angel spin-off? Maybe it was as he was developing the idea of the First...

As the shows evolved, I assume the writers are working many things out backwards, theorizing, just like we do. At any reate, it doesn't seem like there's any evidence of a direct connection between Slayers and the PTB. All one can do is theorize.

One vague passage I see in Fray is...

"There were demons, monsters beyond imagination. Most of them pure evil. They ruled this dimension as they did so many others."

"Eventually, as mortal animals evolved, under the protection of certain mages and Loranites..."

In the comic panel, the "mortal animals" look all hunched over, almost like proto-humans. The "mage" is in a robe, looks fully human. Are the mages and Loranites actually humans themselves? Seems like perhaps, but...what exactly is the source of their power? They apparently managed to drive most demons out of this dimension, way back when"”not just physically kill or dust them. Were they doing something different than the "shamans" that developed the Slayer line?
 
I think we have to consider what magical power really is. In the buffyverese, it doesn't seem inborn. People aren't born magical or non-magical, like in Harry Potter. It seems that they, for lack of a better word, borrow power. Think of that time that Xander said "Libris incendium" while reading a book. It burst into flame. The book itself had the power, just like those dark texts that Willow absorbed at the end of season six. My take is that demons, PTBs, Senior Partners, Old Ones, etc, have some sort of inborn power, which is part of what make's em NOT human. Humans can't really own this power. They can invoke it, performing spells and such. So perhaps, in this way, the PTBs were involved with the Slayer's creation. But as for the main question, do the PTBs care about Buffy? Hard to say. I'd argue they value the Slayer line, as it's a weapon against demonkind. But do they value individual slayers, including Buffy? I say nay.
 
I don't think the PTB were that interested in the slayer, i mean a slayer is a pretty run-of-the mill thing in the buffyverse, they have their job to do and they do it, whereas angel is pretty much a one time deal and obviously has a bigger role to play than buffy or any other slayer because he is the one who fights in the final apocalypse, therefore I'm guessing the powers main interest would be to make sure angel makes it to that point and remains good, but considering this could be like a 1000 years away then buffy is irrelevant because she'll be long dead
 
Well, will got her powers from herself.

As she studied......

I think I read a post or a website somewhere that magic is not goo nor evil.

They channel it from nature, thus like the potion making and spell casting needing earthly ingredients..........

But when Willow crossed those lines of defying magic, bringing back Buffy, she tapped more into nature.....like in the first ep of S7, when she said she can feel it, the HellMouth,..........

She was intune with it............

I believe Willow is infact stronger than the PTB..........as well as Cordy.....

...but in "You're Welcome", she said the PTB owed her, so are they good or do they just do things for you if you do it for them??

Kind of like the you scratch my back I scratch yours, thing........?
 
I agree!

The shansu prophecy was like a reward for the vampire with a soul who averts apocalypses. perhaps this was the powers that be repayal for Angel(Or spike) being an agent for them.
 
Xin Rong said:
I don't think the PTB were that interested in the slayer, i mean a slayer is a pretty run-of-the mill thing in the buffyverse, they have their job to do and they do it, whereas angel is pretty much a one time deal and obviously has a bigger role to play than buffy or any other slayer because he is the one who fights in the final apocalypse, therefore I'm guessing the powers main interest would be to make sure angel makes it to that point and remains good, but considering this could be like a 1000 years away then buffy is irrelevant because she'll be long dead
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I don't think thats the case. I don't believe that Angel is that irregular. I think he is one of many Champions that the Powers will have. I have seen nothing to prove that the Powers necessarily care about Angel, just that they can use him as a weapon, but when his time comes, they can dicard him as easily as any other.
I also dont agree with the Slayer not being seen as important.
She is one girl in all the world a Champion, yes they have been around since the beginning of man and may be around until the last woman stands on the earth wielding a weapon against the coming onslaught of demons from every dimension, but she is still an important weapon in the scheme of things. I'm sure that a Slayer who disrupts the continuum allowing the possible take over of the First Evil would register, as would that same Slayer taking on the First and defeating it(with a little help). Also taking the one weapon and creating an army to fight the good fight. No the Powers would care about the Slayer in the same sense as i believe they care about every other Champion....a tool.

Also, Willow was strong no doubt but there is no chance she is near as powerful as the PTB's, in the sense that all her power was borrowed, from humans other people. Rack and the Coven through Giles....she was powerful but not ultimately powerful.
 
I believe that the prophecy was for Spike.

Angel himself said that he didn't want to be human because he couldn't protect anyone.

He was vulnerable, so why would he want the prophecy?

I think it was for Spike, not Angel.
 
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