Do You Believe He Actually Loved Her?

[Kean]

I wanted to say 'No, but it could make a boat' but that humour is pretty lame 😛 And, it's not one kiss, he's so broken up, when she's dead, it's such a romantic episode, you killed that for me 🙁 😛

If you really believe in a ship don't let anyone kill it for you! Dedication is the way to go! People can say ANYTHING about Bangel and I will still back em no matter what. If you feel that way about Cangel *shudders* then nothing I say can change that.

Edit:

The original question of this thread was "Does He Love Her?" not "Do They Love Each Other?" or "Who Loved Who The Most?" or any of a dozen other variations. Does Spike love Buffy? Absolutely. He proved it over and over, enduring torture, protecting her and her family from her enemies, regaining his soul, and simply being there for her when no one else was. None of Buffy's other lovers endured so much and received so little in return as Spike did. SPIKE LOVES BUFFY. Period. I don't see how anyone could doubt that, considering what he went through to prove it.

The companion question is, "Does She Love Him?" This is where the Spuffies, Bangles, the Fuffies, the Billows, and all of the other shippers tend to drift apart. Some will say that Buffy could never love someone who tried to rape her (of course, I might point out that those same people have no problem with her loving a vampire who tried to kill her AND destroy the world). The truth is, as much as I believe that she does, as much as I WANT her to, neither I nor any of the other fans can say for sure, because of the evilness of he who created the Buffyverse, the Almighty Joss has always been so ambiguous in the matter.

I will say this, and I will continue to say it, and believe it: If there is anyone in the Buffyverse who has earned Buffy's love, it is Spike. If she's too shallow to see what he's offering her, she doesn't deserve him. He should start stalking Faith.

Stalking being the operative word.

 

[white avenger]

Regarding my last post, I should probably explain that my medication hasn't been coming along at the proper intervals lately, but the doctors promise to have me properly sedated before New Years Day. Until then...

 

[white avenger]

Let's try again now...

Did Angel love Buffy? Certainly. Why shouldn't he? She single handedly pulled him out of a filthy alley, changed his diet, and, most importantly, improved his wardrobe (he looked absolutely cute in that velvet coat!). He loved her for seven seasons, plus probably another season of his own show. When he came back to Sunnydale there at the end (once again with a better wardrobe, plus a few extra pounds), he STILL loved her. He just finally accepted the fact that their time was past, and the best thing he could do was to preserve what dignity he could, leave gracefully, and cling to the hope of getting cookies sometime in the future. But he loved her, right up to the end. Just like the old saying, "If you love something, let it go. If it makes a guest appearance on the last episode of your sho..." But He really, REALLY loved her.

(And I didn't mention Spuffy in there a single time.)

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm not going to be drawn into a fight about it BUT Spike definitely loved Buffy and Buffy must have loved Spike because of a throwaway line she says in early season 7(Lyri will know the episode HELP ME OUT).

Buffy and (Xander I think) are talking and Buffy makes the statement
'You think i'm STILL in love with him'
or
'I'm not STILL in love with him'.

It's something along those lines.
The point is she obviously acknowledges she DID love him at one point even if she didn't at the time - though I believe that by the end of season 7 there was mutual love and respect.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Again, not Lyri, but it was "First Date":

BUFFY [talking about Robin]
(grins) You know what? Yeah, I mean I think I like him. And he'd be good for
me.
WILLOW
(nods) Right. Help you move on.
BUFFY
(defensively) Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with
Spike?
WILLOW
No, I-I meant move on from this imposed super-self-reliance. Let somebody get
close.

 

[anyatara]

If you really believe in a ship don't let anyone kill it for you! Dedication is the way to go! People can say ANYTHING about Bangel and I will still back em no matter what. If you feel that way about Cangel *shudders* then nothing I say can change that.

I like Cangel, because I love Spuffy, and Angel needs to have someone 😛

 

[Kemy]

He already has someone, Nina is just filling in until shes "baked" or whatever it was she said in "Chosen". 😛

 

[anyatara]

And then someone can eat her 😀 Haha. That's a bad choice of words to say to a vampire 😉 😛

 

[Kemy]

Actually if you go back and watch the episode she is about to say eat then back tracks, mind you I think she was just avoiding a euphemism rather than the cannibalism aspect. 😉

 

[anyatara]

I know xD I just love the fact she says that 😛

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Again, not Lyri, but it was "First Date":

BUFFY [talking about Robin]
(grins) You know what? Yeah, I mean I think I like him. And he'd be good for
me.
WILLOW
(nods) Right. Help you move on.
BUFFY
(defensively) Why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with
Spike?
WILLOW
No, I-I meant move on from this imposed super-self-reliance. Let somebody get
close.

Thanks Blondie, as you can see she clearly states 'still in love' which means she acknowledges that she did love Spike at one point so she is capable of loving him.
He loved her, thats evident and anyone who disagrees is blind so why do we constantly have arguments over their love when we've been told exactly that they have loved each other and its not a huge leap to believe that she retained that love when HE sacrificed HIMSELF for her and the world at the end of season 7.

 

[Kean]

I like Cangel, because I love Spuffy, and Angel needs to have someone 😛

He does....Buffy! Always!:tongue:

 

[Tomp]

Yeah of course they do.

 

[Kean]

VisionGuy agrees: Angel is not going to wait all eternity for some stale cookies. 😛

In Angel's own words...he ain't gettin any older. One thing Angel has is time. He'll wait, he will soooooo wait. Grasping at straws it seems VG:no:

 

[palabravampiress]

In Angel's own words...he ain't gettin any older. One thing Angel has is time. He'll wait, he will soooooo wait. Grasping at straws it seems VG:no:

I don't know if I think he'll wait. I mean, what was Cordy? What was Nina? Those ended badly and quickly, but they did show a tendency to try to move on. What if he falls in love with someone present and attainable while he's waiting for Buffy to finish baking? Will he just toss aside the new love for Buffy as soon as her oven timer goes "ding?"

 

[palabravampiress]

Wait. How did you both agree with me while continuing to disagree with one another, especially when I only asked a question?! lol. This is confusing.

So, let me see if I get this straight. Keanoite took the question literally and thinks he'll toss new girl overboard, right? And VG took it in its more ironic sense and thinks he'll find another twu wuv because no way would he behave so dishonorably to new girl just cuz Buffy says it's time? Am I right?

Me, I honestly don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I can see Angel jumping at the chance to get Buffy back. After all, he did seem amenable to the possibility of a reconciliation at the end of that cookie dough scene. He loves Buffy. Being with her is his dream. Part of him will always want to drop everything and just be with her. Of course, that part always seems to lose out in the end, doesn't it?

On the other hand, this is Angel we're talking about. Not only has he had chances to be with Buffy and walked out on every one, but he's very big on the loyalty thing. He nearly died for Darla, declared his love for Cordy, and actively pursued a relationship with Nina. He's not exactly waiting now, so what makes us think he'll keep waiting? Given what we know of Angel's character and how in love he is with the idea of love, I find it hard to imagine that he won't find another lady love before Buffy realizes that we're all cookies and that none of us are ever really done baking, so we may as well melt into one another and get all gooey with each other, anyway. And I find it hard to imagine that he'd just leave this new girl, whoever she is, in the lurch. She'd have to be pretty special for him to be in love with her. It would be wrong to use the new girl that way. And we all know how Angel hates to be wrong.

Hmm...

Ok. I vote for option #2. I don't know whether I want him to keep new girl or dump her for Buffy, but I really wanna see that triangle. I wanna see Angel struggle with that decision and finally choose once and for all: Buffy or not Buffy.

Oooh -- and then I want to relive one of my favorite GH memories. I want Angel to choose new girl out of his hyperdeveloped sense of duty. So Buffy goes off with Spike. Then, while Buffy and Spike clink champagne (or blood) glasses, one of Angel's enemies kills the new girl in an attack meant for Angel. It's perfect!

 

[Kean]

Wait. How did you both agree with me while continuing to disagree with one another, especially when I only asked a question?! lol. This is confusing.

So, let me see if I get this straight. Keanoite took the question literally and thinks he'll toss new girl overboard, right? And VG took it in its more ironic sense and thinks he'll find another twu wuv because no way would he behave so dishonorably to new girl just cuz Buffy says it's time? Am I right?

Me, I honestly don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I can see Angel jumping at the chance to get Buffy back. After all, he did seem amenable to the possibility of a reconciliation at the end of that cookie dough scene. He loves Buffy. Being with her is his dream. Part of him will always want to drop everything and just be with her. Of course, that part always seems to lose out in the end, doesn't it?

On the other hand, this is Angel we're talking about. Not only has he had chances to be with Buffy and walked out on every one, but he's very big on the loyalty thing. He nearly died for Darla, declared his love for Cordy, and actively pursued a relationship with Nina. He's not exactly waiting now, so what makes us think he'll keep waiting? Given what we know of Angel's character and how in love he is with the idea of love, I find it hard to imagine that he won't find another lady love before Buffy realizes that we're all cookies and that none of us are ever really done baking, so we may as well melt into one another and get all gooey with each other, anyway. And I find it hard to imagine that he'd just leave this new girl, whoever she is, in the lurch. She'd have to be pretty special for him to be in love with her. It would be wrong to use the new girl that way. And we all know how Angel hates to be wrong.

Hmm...

Ok. I vote for option #2. I don't know whether I want him to keep new girl or dump her for Buffy, but I really wanna see that triangle. I wanna see Angel struggle with that decision and finally choose once and for all: Buffy or not Buffy.

Oooh -- and then I want to relive one of my favorite GH memories. I want Angel to choose new girl out of his hyperdeveloped sense of duty. So Buffy goes off with Spike. Then, while Buffy and Spike clink champagne (or blood) glasses, one of Angel's enemies kills the new girl in an attack meant for Angel. It's perfect!

Flashes of Dylan's wife being killed in 90210!! This is a topic that you and I will NEVER agree on but glutton for punishment😀

Like Buffy has never loved another as she loves Angel I don't believe Angel will ever or really can ever love anyone like he loves Buffy, no matter who she is. So if he does end up with some wench...I mean girl😀...I think she will be of the Nina variety. Fond of her but really thats it. Your right about him being loyal, and who is he going to be more loyal to than the love of his life?

I honest to God believe that if either of the two of them had the chance presented to them to be with each other they would take it...Carpe Diem...life is short. They both understand that on whole new levels now.

 

[palabravampiress]

Flashes of Dylan's wife being killed in 90210!! This is a topic that you and I will NEVER agree on but glutton for punishment😀

Like Buffy has never loved another as she loves Angel I don't believe Angel will ever or really can ever love anyone like he loves Buffy, no matter who she is. So if he does end up with some wench...I mean girl😀...I think she will be of the Nina variety. Fond of her but really thats it. Your right about him being loyal, and who is he going to be more loyal to than the love of his life?

I honest to God believe that if either of the two of them had the chance presented to them to be with each other they would take it...Carpe Diem...life is short. They both understand that on whole new levels now.

Yeah. It's a soapy scenario that I painted. 🙂

Even at the expense of someone else? I mean, I'm counting Nina as sort of a Parker or a Scott. Buffy had a couple of flirtations that didn't really go anywhere. But Angel never really "won" over Riley or Spike. She'd meet with Angel, things would get all awkward and weird with the crazy tension that is their relationship, and then she'd skip back to her main squeeze. I don't think the history that is between them will ever really go away, but I kind of think Angel would feel the need to stick to the new girl (at least at first). I'm counting her as sort of a Darla or a Cordy. If either of those relationships had been allowed to progress, I think he would have chosen Darla or Cordy over Buffy in the end. His commitment to them and his sense of responsibility for them was very strong -- much stronger than it was to/for Buffy as their lives continued to grow apart.

I guess if it was a fling, I'd see him choosing Buffy. But if it was something more -- and especially if she was vulnerable in some way (Darla was a dying human and then pregnant and Cordy was human and afflicted with the visions) -- I think he'd pick the new lady. I think he loved Buffy very much. I think a little part of him will always love her. But I don't know if I think he'd ever let himself be happy with Buffy. He's afraid of that -- and with good reason. I think that, at this point, his instinct sort of screams "Danger! Danger!" with the flashing lights and the wavy arms. So I think he'd find a way to rationalize staying with the other chick out of love and duty, I also think a part of that would be due to his fear of being happy with Buffy.

Of course, this scenario assumes that Buffy's "I'm cookies" moment doesn't come when she is in a relationship with someone else. Personally, I've always kind of wanted her to end up with Xander.

 

[Kean]

To be honest I don't really see him falling in love anytime soon, if ever. He doesn't really welcome people into his life, Cordy pretty much barged her way in and literally set up shop. Especially where the comics are going fat grand children don't seem to be in the offing. Any time he has opened his heart to any girl he has either ended up a vamp or in hell, figuratively and literally. And well, I just don't see him saying no to Buffy if a genuine oppertunity persented itself for them to be together.

 

[white avenger]

Flashes of Dylan's wife being killed in 90210!! This is a topic that you and I will NEVER agree on but glutton for punishment😀

Like Buffy has never loved another as she loves Angel I don't believe Angel will ever or really can ever love anyone like he loves Buffy, no matter who she is. So if he does end up with some wench...I mean girl😀...I think she will be of the Nina variety. Fond of her but really thats it. Your right about him being loyal, and who is he going to be more loyal to than the love of his life?

I honest to God believe that if either of the two of them had the chance presented to them to be with each other they would take it...Carpe Diem...life is short. They both understand that on whole new levels now.

All of the above would be wonderful except for a truth so consistent that it might just as well be a law of nature: No matter how intense, how mind, heart, and spirit consuming a first love may be, (and I have said before that I have no doubt that Angel and Buffy were in love and that it was a first love for each of them) first loves almost never lead to lifetime partnerships. Cling to that "almost" if you want to, but the truth remains that Angel has a better chance of getting a sun tan than he does of spending his life with Buffy. Cling to the Shanshue prophesy too, it's your only hope.

Go and find a dozen typical happily married couples and ask them if their partners were their first loves. Ask fifty, or a hundred couples, and the answer will be the same: First loves are wonderful, but their major purpose is to prepare us for our REAL loves, the ones who, ideally, are the ones we are to spend our lives with. I still have feelings for my first love, and any honest person will say the same thing, but as much as I loved her, I wouldn't trade the love that I have now for a dozen of her. That's what REAL love is.

Does Buffy love Angel? I have no doubt of it. Does Buffy love Spike? I have no doubt of that either. Will she spend her life with either one of them? That remains for th ALL Powerful Joss to decide, but I believe that if the answer is yes, then the one she is ultimately with will almost certainly be Spike, not because their love is any more real than that shared by Buffy and Angel in earlier times, but simply because their love is the love shared by two adults.