Do you feel the Spuffy hate in other forums? Come read this....

[GoSpuffy]

I don't know why Bangels can't love Angel without hating Spike. Are they sore losers? However, if you are feeling down after visiting other forums here's the link for you: Buffy Rewatch: Relationships

and here's my favorite paragraph:
Thus: when Angelus is trying to end the world, Spike is trying to save it. When Xander is busy making threats and lying, Spike is saving Giles and keeping his promises. When Riley is out paying lady vamps to bite him, or sulking because Buffy’s had the temerity to put her own need to be strong ahead of his need to feel manly and protective, Spike is telling her the truth and offering quiet, undemanding support. When Willow and the others are smothering the newly resurrected Buffy, Spike gives her an out. And when absolutely everyone betrays her at the end of S7, it’s Spike alone who keeps faith with her. From villain to invalid to lovelorn drunk; from glowering menace to chaotic, defanged outsider; from frenemy to lover to ex; from assailant to madman to stalwart, both Spike’s personality and his relationship with Buffy undergo the most development in the whole show. He’s done some truly awful things, but when it really matters and everyone else has abandoned her, it’s always Spike, and Spike alone, who’s there to watch her back.

 

[gite63]

I don't hate Angel - or any characters, for that matter, and I think that in here there are people with strong opinions. But there are also a few haters and Bangels who hate...

Many of the Bangels I know - even those that are in the closet, for some reason or other - really hate Spike. And I kind of understand the reason: Spuffy always was - has been - a threat to their ship... even people who have fantasy ships seems to be very upset about Spuffy, because the ship is strong and real and popular.

I imagine back in the day, when right after I Will Remember You, it was aired Something Blue - the idea of Spuffy all over it... it should have been hurtful.

 

[GoSpuffy]

I never thought of it that way, you're right, I probably don't hate Briley or Bangel because they came first and you are correct, they aren't a threat to Spuffy. I like the back and forth talk, and some of it can be funny but some of it is weirdly hostile. Gets a bit old after awhile. Spike's just so funny and the whole relationship is just so entertaining. Doesn't make me hate the other characters, just admire what I like the most. I wish there could be a bit more of sharing what we love and trying to sway others to our opinions without the feeling the need to criticize what others like.

 

[Silverspike]

I have to say I always suspected that some old school hard core Bangels had always liked to think theirs was the morally superior pairing and that anything else was to be looked down upon and at best tolerated and at worst shunned and riled against at every opportunity. God the arguments that used to go on 🙁

Attitudes I still see scattered around the net even now, and some sadly on this board.

And as an aside I also got a sense that they resented Spike becoming a main character even though (I felt anyway) his progression had felt natural. He had after all been in every season bar 1 and most of 3.

 

[cryptwarmer]

James Marsters was by far the better actor at that point in their careers (I make no further comment), he was given good lines and an interesting character. He hit them out of the park so they gave him more and it kept on building. Love him or hate him Spike was an attention grabber. The character was multi dimensional (so was the actor) so they could do so much more with Spike, and the character himself had no reputation to tarnish so he could be as bad or as good as they wanted him to be without damaging him. Smart writing.

To love Bangel I can see why there is almost a need to dislike Spike. He was so many things Angel was not. Spike's love for Buffy wasn't pure, sweet, or dramatically anguished. Spike and his relationship with Buffy felt like an insult to Bangel. Angel sure wasn't happy about it.

Bangels tend to feel that Buffy let them down, herself down and Angel down by ever lowering herself to be with Spike. And I totally see that moral superiority thing.

There is a ton of hate available if you want to find it, on the other hand...there are entire websites devoted to one ship or another.

I love Spike, but that does't mean that I think his love for Buffy or their relationship was great, but it was a heck of a lot more fun to watch and at the end of the day I really do watch tv for entertainment.

Still, I love to analyze and discuss ships on the boards and am open to a variety of perspectives. Since Buffy chose both of them, and it's her show I accept that there were positives and negatives in each ship. Sometimes ship wars can be good fun if you don't take them too personally. They sure make for interesting reading!

I write fan fic and honestly, I just cannot write Bangel, my personality simply can't wrap my head around him and his relationship with Buffy enough to come up with ANYTHING. I assume that many Bangels have the same issue with Spike, they simply cannot wrap their heads around it, him, etc. And I know many of them feel cheated that the character of Spike took off the way it did.

Joss didn't intend it, yet it happened. JM stole the show. TV is ratings driven. Spike was popular enough that they resurrected him to be on Angel. That must have hurt.

 

[white avenger]

For the most part, I think that Spuffy shippers have far less trouble accepting as fact that Buffy and Angel actually were in love, and probably always will be, than Bangel shippers have in believing the same thing about Buffy and Spike.

 

[bespangeled]

Why does one of them - Angel or Spike - have to be good, or better, or whatever? I see two complex character making their way through some difficult times. Yeah, Angel screwed up, and so did Spike. I'm a Spangel fan - to see Angel put down in order to elevate Spike is really a complete lack of understanding both, IMO. They are both such multi-faceted characters. I love the flaws, the screw-ups, the bad calls, the evolution and devolution - bot of them.

I write fan fic

Share?
I have an AO3 - it's fairly explicit but a few lines. I hate pages of porn.

 

[GoSpuffy]

Why does one of them - Angel or Spike - have to be good, or better, or whatever? I see two complex character making their way through some difficult times. Yeah, Angel screwed up, and so did Spike.

This is what I'm trying to figure out. Angel was fine when it was his time. So was Riley. So was Spike. Different people like different aspects of the show. Why can't people just say which character they liked by stating what they liked about them without saying I liked him and this other guy was horrible in contrast because? And why can't people say I liked this character without a whole bunch of people saying why you're wrong? Why does it have to be a competition? Do you know after I posted this thread someone copied it for both the Bangel and Briley forums? Imitiation is supposed to be the sincerest form of flattery but I can't help but think it was actually a slam. Why are they monitoring a spuffy forum to make sure we're not talking about Spike in a positive manner that we might enjoy. Maybe I'm just not competitive enough in my ship to be on these boards. I thought it was more about fun and talking about what we loved about the show than proving to strangers why our opinion is more right than theirs.

 

[bespangeled]

Yeah - we all get sensitive sometimes.

For me, it's kinda weird. For a long time here, if I brought up something good about Spike, some people instantly brought up something good about Angel. I happen to like them both, so it didn't bother me. Not the expected reaction though. For me the article was kind of like that. I don't know - comparing the two in the sense of good and bad seems shallow - I like to compare the two in the sense of two very real characters, explore their depths, figure them out, make connections - both individually and together in some senses of the word. Potent history there - we see only a handful of years.

We all seem to be going through an immaturity spasm - maybe it's just spring. I do like it here - overall it's the best Buffy place I have found. That's not to say it's faultless though.

 

[Silverspike]

Oh I love both characters, but what often gets on my wick is that some wouldn't let you do that. They prefer to keep banging on about certain character faults at every opportunity. So much so you end up retaliating, and so the fandom spiral downwards continues.

I also think for some 'old timers' we have long memories and sometimes that can be difficult to get around, especially when you can see others aren't exactly blameless themselves.

 

[Silverspike]

"Yeah - we all get sensitive sometimes."

Yeah, but I think you're beginning to realise it's gone way beyond that on here at least. So much for them wanting us to all get along.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Getting along does not mean no one can say something negative about Spike. But you will notice, no one has been allowed to do so in this thread, in the Spuffy forum. And there are plenty of negative comments on the board about Angel and Bangel. These are topics everyone should be able to (and free to) discuss without it getting personal. THAT is getting along. That isn't mass agreement.

 

[Wildfly]

I admit, the temptation to behave childishly is overwhelming. i myself love some friendly bickering - it's hard to resist the temptation when i got a belittling or snappy response to my perfectly justified and totally objective point 😀 😛
but people here sometimes take it too far and start to get personal, which is a bit over the top...
Angel and Spike are both fascinating characters i spent lots of time pondering about them and their ideals and purpose in morning traffic and also about the problems the writers faced writing Riley with the inconsequent instructions they got and the abilities of the actor who played him.

And i agree with the article, Spike does get the upstart, usurper treatment, but also much-much love, and sure, as things usually get balanced, also lots of hate, while again, poor Riley not as much hated but neglected, which can be painful for his loyal fans. Angel got his own series and great character development. Maybe i am mistaken, but when discussing Angel the conversation stays mainly civil on BB (don't know about other forums with battles, i am new to buffy) it's Spike who pisses off everyone here. From personal experience, cant write a single line of praise without getting rather sharp arguments, sometimes even 'who in his right mind would think that...'
Maybe the tone of the discussion is from a trauma carried over from other forums, i dont know 🙂

Edit:

All this is great, but what really bugs me is that arguments are so repetitive in BB 'ship battle' threads (not so on other BB threads) Sometimes you stumble upon an interesting perspective but mostly it's all the same and quite narrow.
I start to read and think 'here we go again...' I am new, but i already recognize the patterns and sometimes play a little game
of guessing what the response will be. It's like a dance we all know the steps for...

 

[cryptwarmer]

Do you know after I posted this thread someone copied it for both the Bangel and Briley forums? Imitiation is supposed to be the sincerest form of flattery but I can't help but think it was actually a slam. Why are they monitoring a spuffy forum to make sure we're not talking about Spike in a positive manner that we might enjoy. Maybe I'm just not competitive enough in my ship to be on these boards. I thought it was more about fun and talking about what we loved about the show than proving to strangers why our opinion is more right than theirs.

Because it's fun to b*tch and moan and love and hate and pretty much act like Spike. lol.

Just like a variety of traits on the show make a character interesting, so does a variety of opinions about the characters. The other day someone on a Spuffy site I belonged to was upset about people dissing Spike on a Bangel forum. Which basically means they were hanging on a Bangel forum and took their hurt feelings to their Spuffy friends.

Just human nature. It's fine if everyone remembers it's a TV show, the characters are constructs and that some of their behavior was ratings driven...and a LOT of our reactions to the characters reflects our own life experience.

 

[Athena]

Just human nature. It's fine if everyone remembers it's a TV show, the characters are constructs and that some of their behavior was ratings driven...and a LOT of our reactions to the characters reflects our own life experience.

Exactly what I was going to say. Everyone has their own opinions and everyone's entitled to them, so long as we're not insulting each other about it. It's natural to have an allegiance to one thing or another, hell the very basis of society - politics, community, sport, careers, they all require allegiance, passion and belief in the cause. It's when things start getting personal that it's just not necessary.

But also, at the end of the day, we're all passionate for our 'teams' but it's still only a TV show. No-one is saying they prefer Bangel to annoy Spuffy fans; it's just their personal choice and they have their reasons and we should all respect other's opinions. Me, I don't care what other people like, we're all here for the same reason. We're all fans of the same show. I like to hear their opinions why they prefer Bangel. It doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong (or vice versa).

 

[Silverspike]

Have to say though imo It's threads like this that doesn't exactly help matters does it? Bitching and making sweeping statements about certain groups of fans and characters isn't exactly going to create an atmosphere of peace and harmony. But maybe thats never going to happen, especially with a fandom as old as the Buffyverse.

But then maybe thats just me? 😀

 

[Wildfly]

Have to say though imo It's threads like this that doesn't exactly help matters does it? Bitching and making sweeping statements about certain groups of fans and characters isn't exactly going to create an atmosphere of peace and harmony.

But then maybe thats just me? 😀

Mhm. Talking things over is productive.
But doing it on three separate forums is a bit funny.

 

[Taake]

Mhm. Talking things over is productive.
But doing it on three separate forums is a bit funny.

Well, they're kind of meant to be "safe spaces" for shipping. So you don't have to argue with the other side in this specific forum. Just go ahead and love your ship and save the arguing to threads outside of the fanclubs 🙂

 

[Silverspike]

But it never seems to be about loving their own ship/character preferences, but usually rapidly devolves into making it all about how awful other peoples preferences are.

 

[Wildfly]

Well, they're kind of meant to be "safe spaces" for shipping. So you don't have to argue with the other side in this specific forum. Just go ahead and love your ship and save the arguing to threads outside of the fanclubs 🙂

Looks more like another moan thread to hide from the cruel world. But i get it - my impression is that adding Spike to a conversation in BB is like adding francium to water may be a shared sentinent by other shippers about their loved characters so we may need a place to vent.