Question Do you think it was the right decision to have Spike fall in love with Buffy?

[Chosen Enemy]

The negative part of Spike falling in love with Buffy is, in my opinion, the way he loves her. Like in "Crush". He tied her up because he wanted her to return his feelings for her. That's one example. However, we can't blame it on him, because he is a vampire, after all, souless creature. As Drusilla said: "We can love pretty well. But not wisely). Also, Spike is used to only one kind of love, the one he had with Drusilla. So just like with Drusilla, just as he's used to, his love for Buffy is violent. Because that's the only way he's learned to love. He sees that Buffy is partly the same. As we see in their sex sessions. It's violent. Buffy partly loves it this way. But I believe she did want him to be gentle with her, for their relationship wouldn't be all about violence and pain.

But as time passes and he starts undertanding what love really is. That it is not about violence. He learns that, in the hard way. That's when Buffy could return feelings.

And now that they both get what love each other means, I see no reason why not having them together, and for him to love her. Because they both get what they really want, and they can get it from each other. What's so wrong about that?

 

[StarSlayer]

Sorry, I don't mean to try to convince you of Twilight's greatness or anything cause I hardly like it myself but I must say I find this comparison a bit unfair. Not only because of the book vs tv-show medium but because Spike is given a lot of more freedom to develop as a character because the show, though called 'Buffy' is not told through Buffy's point of view.

The twilight books however are told from Bella's viewpoint. Bella has no direct insight to Edwards mind and therefore his "I can't be with you because I would kill you" motive becomes rather limited and insufficient.

I was referring more so to the movies rather than the books though. Yet, even based on the books, just because we get the perspective of one character doesn't mean it should limit the character development of another character. They're books out there that don't let that happen. Even if we don't get direct insight to another character's mind, an author can give us insight into what that character may be thinking based on their actions and how the main character reacts to these actions.

However Edward was further explored in the manuscript that was "Twilight" only written from his perspective. It leaked online though and has therefore not been finished to this day but I'm sure that had it been we would have seen a far 'deeper' Edward.

That would have been interesting if it made its way into the final product.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

So far, the opinions have split along the Spuffy/Bangel axis.

I'd love to ask a slightly different question: if, for example, Jesse was chipped in the end on "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and his story was developed in the same direction as Spike - he'd become a snarky reluctant ally, then fall in love with Cordelia, be jealous of Xander, go for the soul quest, become a souled vampire etc. - would you accept such a storyline? Would it destroy the show's internal consistency? If it happened in earlier seasons?

 

[patriot1123]

How anyone could not like the Willow/Spike erectile dysfunction scene is totally beyond me. I thought that was freakin' hilarious.

ITA. I absolutely loved that scene. Genius.

 

[Taake]

So far, the opinions have split along the Spuffy/Bangel axis.

StarSlayer agrees: Lol, yep! Definitely split there (because we can't have anyone else fall in love with Buffy )

I must say I take slight offence in this. Because I'm a Bangel yes, but do I disagree to someone else falling in love with Buffy? No, I do not.
Do I disagree to Spike falling in love with Buffy? No, I do not.

However, as previously stated, I mind the way the story went.
To me it ruined both characters in a lot of ways and their relationship to me felt wrong in ways I'm not going to go into here because it's not about shipping.

Had the story been told differenty - just the other day in a thread here I read an alternative course of actions - I would have felt more open to it. Had it not been necessary for Buffy to tear down all of what she was to be with him then I quite possibly would have rooted for them in a sense...

For me this question is not about shipping, it's about what it did to the characters and most significantly to Spike (who once was one of my favorites) got more or less demolished through the plot line the followed after he fell in love with Buffy.(in my opinion)

 

[Kean]

I must say I take slight offence in this. Because I'm a Bangel yes, but do I disagree to someone else falling in love with Buffy? No, I do not.
Do I disagree to Spike falling in love with Buffy? No, I do not.

However, as previously stated, I mind the way the story went.
To me it ruined both characters in a lot of ways and their relationship to me felt wrong in ways I'm not going to go into here because it's not about shipping.

Had the story been told differenty - just the other day in a thread here I read an alternative course of actions - I would have felt more open to it. Had it not been necessary for Buffy to tear down all of what she was to be with him then I quite possibly would have rooted for them in a sense...

For me this question is not about shipping, it's about what it did to the characters and Spike (who once was one of my favorites) got more or less demolished through the plot line the followed after he fell in love with Buffy.

I want to echo Taake's sentiment here. I don't like Spike because I find chipped/souled Spike unbearable. Not because of Spuffy.

So my reasons for not liking him falling for Buffy have everything to do with the character he became because of that storyline, not the relationship with Buffy.

You can be an opposing shipper and not like him just because he is him. It doesn't always have to be boiled down to him not being Angel.

 

[Icarium]

Well write your own show then, rather than wingeing about Joss's show

Ah, the old "Well, can you do better? If not, shut up!" argument. Let's be serious, okay?

Hank abandoning Buffy! That was hardly a major storyline, compare to the drama of junkie willow. Joyce dying, was joyce dying, it was a difficult event for them, but it was about Joyce dying, not about having to face their internal demons. Them being outcasts? That was a good storyline for the first seasons, but that was about a childs dilemmas, not about an adult facing his demons, and they can't stay school outcasts forever otherwise it would turn Buffy into Dawson Creek, with them never growing up.

Again with the strawman. Did I say I wanted the characters to stay school outcasts forever? I don't think I did. I am saying that they faced their internal demons from day one. It's not something season six invented.

Once again I'll say, they tried to kill him on numerous occasions, but didn't succeed, they don't succeed in killing every vampire, some get away,

Spike didn't get away, he was hanging out with the Scoobies for like three years before getting a soul.

I think you're getting off the point here, you have to explain better what you mean by things needing to make sense in the story itself too.

I am saying that things have to make sense on the literal level. Example - the (in)famous Spike-Willow scene in The Initiative. As a metaphor about impotence it's rather fun, but the problem is that for me it makes no sense for Willow to be all happy when Spike assures he would have killed her right now if he could. The characters shouldn't behave as if they know it's just a TV show and they aren't really in any danger.

He wasn't first of all evil

Right...

Spike always had some level of human characteristics even in season 2 we saw about him wanting to not have the world destroyed, other people have talked about this argument in alot more detail already. Also he loved Drusilla as soon as he appeared on the show. Once again about the decent writer thing, write something of your own rather than wingeing about others attempts. There is no internal logic violated, just your logic which seems to say good and bad are polar extremes that never touch, reality is, as we learnt in season 6, that the line between good and evil is very thin and ambiguous indeed. Well Joss must be an idiot then according to you, but I don't agree with that personally.

You are still not getting, are you? It's not about good and bad. It's about consistency. Would you say it's okay if in the odd numbered episodes vampires could come in without invitation and walk in sunlight while in the even numbered they couldn't? Or if half the episodes Xander was a genius, in the other half a total moron? If in one episode it took two hours to get from Sunnydale to LA, while in another it took five days with the same vehicle and driver?

I'd love to ask a slightly different question: if, for example, Jesse was chipped in the end on "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and his story was developed in the same direction as Spike - he'd become a snarky reluctant ally, then fall in love with Cordelia, be jealous of Xander, go for the soul quest, become a souled vampire etc. - would you accept such a storyline? Would it destroy the show's internal consistency?

Yes, it would, provided no other vampires ever followed in Jesse's footsteps and no Scooby ever wondered how come such a transformation was possible as it happened in Spike's case.

 

[zobothehobo]

So far, the opinions have split along the Spuffy/Bangel axis.

I just looked at the people who voted... and I don't think we've gone straight down the shipping line. For instance, PrincessBuffy16 is a HUGE Bangel... but she voted yes. I think generally speaking, yeah... a Bangel is much much MUCH more likely to answer this question no. And their reasons for answering this question no may very well echo their reasons for disliking Spuffy... But it's still a valid opinion... And that makes perfect sense. Why would they think it was a bad idea? The same reasons they disliked it when it happened. And I do think it's slightly unfair of us Spuffies to assume it's because they can't let Buffy move on. And I am guilty of having that prejudice towards Bangels... but it is unfair... For many people... and as this question asks and shows... it's not about Buffy moving on... It's about Buffy moving on with Spike. It's the Spike/Buffy pairing... not Buffy/someone not Angel that bothers them... And I get that... it makes sense

 

[BuffyElevated]

Taake has already warned everyone once to be civil. This is you guy's second warning... If anyone steps out of line again, I will close the thread.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Taake
Had the story been told differenty - just the other day in a thread here I read an alternative course of actions - I would have felt more open to it. Had it not been necessary for Buffy to tear down all of what she was to be with him then I quite possibly would have rooted for them in a sense...

For me this question is not about shipping, it's about what it did to the characters and most significantly to Spike (who once was one of my favorites) got more or less demolished through the plot line the followed after he fell in love with Buffy.(in my opinion)

I don't understand your phrase "had it not been necessary for Buffy to tear down all of what she was to be with him". Do you mean that Buffy behaved as a desperate woman to attract Spike?

As to "what it did to characters", I can only say that it was Spike/Buffy story that made me enter online fandom. I liked BtVS, I taped every episode, but I never had an urge to talk about the show with other people pre-Spuffy. So, to me, Buffy/Spike relationship is the best thing that has ever happened on BtVS.

Icarium
Yes, it would, provided no other vampires ever followed in Jesse's footsteps and no Scooby ever wondered how come such a transformation was possible as it happened in Spike's case.

Say, they'd follow in Jesse' footsteps. Say, there'd be Spike and Dru, episodic characters who were madly in love, and Spike would even had a pact with Buffy to save Drusilla. There'd be Harmony, who was funny, pathetic and who'd eventually give up killing people because of a good dental plan in W&H. There'd be Dracula, elegant, and mysterious, and unkillable, who openly tries to seduce Buffy and then becomes her ally. There'd be vampire whores who suck people for money and don't kill them. There'd be bunches of friendly demons, like Clem and the guests on Anya's un-wedding.

And, say, Scoobies, would refuse to accept Jesse's love as a real deal as obstinately as they refused in Spike's case.

So - what would you say?

 

[StarSlayer]

Taake agrees: I disagree, firstly because through Bella we're not seeing ALL of his actions. Secondly, beause through Bella we don't see his actions. We see her INTERPRETATIONS of his actions... big difference.

And those interpretations can lead to character development. Then, based on what the character actually does (as seen from the main character's pov), there's further development. 🙂 But, based on Twilight, like I said. I was more so referring to the movies because I'm not in the position to really comment on the books. 🙂

I must say I take slight offence in this. Because I'm a Bangel yes, but do I disagree to someone else falling in love with Buffy? No, I do not.
Do I disagree to Spike falling in love with Buffy? No, I do not.

I didn't mean to make you feel offended. I was seriously joking with MW (my lame attempt at humor I guess didn't work), which is why I put a 😉.

 

[Icarium]

Say, they'd follow in Jesse' footsteps. Say, there'd be Spike and Dru, episodic characters who were madly in love, and Spike would even had a pact with Buffy to save Drusilla. There'd be Harmony, who was funny, pathetic and who'd eventually give up killing people because of a good dental plan in W&H. There'd be Dracula, elegant, and mysterious, and unkillable, who openly tries to seduce Buffy and then becomes her ally. There'd be vampire whores who suck people for money and don't kill them. There'd be bunches of friendly demons, like Clem and the guests on Anya's un-wedding.

And, say, Scoobies, would refuse to accept Jesse's love as a real deal as obstinately as they refused in Spike's case.

I think the subtext is rapidly, becoming, er, text. 🙂 But, throwing the pretence of discussing hypothetical example aside, none of the above is a good follow-through, IMO. The writers still haven't dealt with the ramifications of having "good" vampires and demons and they never will, IMO, because if they do it will become quite problematic for Buffy to slaughter them on a regular basis. It's much easier to treat the Spikes and Draculas as random exceptions and ignore what their existence means in the larger scheme of things, just like it's easier to have the government forces pull out of Sunnydale after S4, so things can go back to the status-quo.

 

[StarSlayer]

xaphania agrees: Britt, trust me, DON'T read Twilight. The writing's terrible and they're just horrible books.

LMAO! 😀 I'm thinking of that awesome wallie you made a while ago, where everytime someone reads "Twilight," a real vampire dies! 😀 I can't let that happen!

 

[Moscow Watcher]

I think the subtext is rapidly, becoming, er, text. 🙂 But, throwing the pretence of discussing hypothetical example aside, none of the above is a good follow-through, IMO. The writers still haven't dealt with the ramifications of having "good" vampires and demons and they never will, IMO, because if they do it will become quite problematic for Buffy to slaughter them on a regular basis. It's much easier to treat the Spikes and Draculas as random exceptions and ignore what their existence means in the larger scheme of things, just like it's easier to have the government forces pull out of Sunnydale after S4, so things can go back to the status-quo.

Yes, I'm ready to suspend my disbelief, when it comes to The Initiative, to The Council who can exploit young girls without attracting FBI to their activities, to Xander and Cordy stealing a bazooka from a military base, to Buffy keeping the bazooka at home and Joyce not noticing it... as well as when it comes to vampire souls and personalities.

Icarium, I hope you don't mind me asking you who are your favorite characters and couples. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

Yes, I'm ready to suspend my disbelief, when it comes to The Initiative, to The Council who can exploit young girls without attracting FBI to their activities, to Xander and Cordy stealing a bazooka from a military base, to Buffy keeping the bazooka at home and Joyce not noticing it... as well as when it comes to vampire souls and personalities.

Two wrongs don't make it right. I don't think it's a good idea for the writers to go with the mindset of "we screwed up before, few people protested, so let's do it again because we can't be bothered to write a story that doesn't contradict itself".

Icarium, I hope you don't mind me asking you who are your favorite characters and couples.

I only mind because it's off-topic but if you really want to know - Willow, Giles, Wesley, Xander, Tara, Jenny and Buffy. As for couples, Willow/Tara, Giles/Jenny and Xander/Cordelia.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

I'm a bit offended for Joss and his writers. I don't think their mindset was "we screwed up before, few people protested, so let's do it again because we can't be bothered to write a story that doesn't contradict itself". They wrote genre television, and genre always assumes suspension of disbelief. Whether it's a bazooka stolen from a military base by two teenagers or a vampire's soul.

Thanks for replying about your favorite characters and couples! I love Willow/Tara, Giles/Jenny and especially Xander/Cordy - their dynamics is very similar to Spuffy, I think.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

At the ECCC panel, a fan asked why all "the men on Buffy turn into pussies after falling for Buffy" and I can't begin to explain how much this disapointed me. I imagine this fa didn't watch the show very carefully or doesn't like Spike very much.

I don't even need to read this thread to know what's going on. There's always the two sides; the fans that think Spike's falling for Buffy improved his character, and those fans who think it did the later, it "ruined" him. Many fans think that Spike lost his "edge" after falling for Buffy, and that's somehow a negative thing. This makes no sense to me. Before Spike met Buffy he was a mass murdering throwaway character. His love for Buffy inspired him to evolve, to become a better man for her. It's a true love story.

How come so many fans think that Spike is not a character worthy of evolution? No one thinks Angel turned into a "pussy" one he fell for Buffy.

 

[Kean]

At the ECCC panel, a fan asked why all "the men on Buffy turn into pussies after falling for Buffy" and I can't begin to explain how much this disapointed me. I imagine this fa didn't watch the show very carefully or doesn't like Spike very much.

I don't even need to read this thread to know what's going on. There's always the two sides; the fans that think Spike's falling for Buffy improved his character, and those fans who think it did the later, it "ruined" him. Many fans think that Spike lost his "edge" after falling for Buffy, and that's somehow a negative thing. This makes no sense to me. Before Spike met Buffy he was a mass murdering throwaway character. His love for Buffy inspired him to evolve, to become a better man for her. It's a true love story.

How come so many fans think that Spike is not a character worthy of evolution? No one thinks Angel turned into a "pussy" one he fell for Buffy.

Just from my own stance, I have never said or claimed to have viewed Spike as a "___" (I won't use that word you used Joan. I hate it. 🙂 ).

What I do find him, is boring and unauthentic. And that's why I dislike his falling for Buffy. To me it stripped him of some of his previously most compelling personality traits. On top of that, it led to some of my most hated episodes and seasons.

It's not that I don't think him worthy of evolution, I just am loathe to the evolution he did get. Just as I am Willow's.

Also, I think there is no comparison to how Angel fell for Buffy, and how the audience experienced that, and how Spike did. We were introduced to Angel as him being Buffy's love interest. Everything we knew about him was tied to her. That wasn't the case with Spike. He had a whole life and world that had nothing to do with her.

I imagine if we had met Angelus first and he ended up falling for Buffy you would hear very similar complaints from fans.

 

[xaphania]

Also, I think there is no comparison to how Angel fell for Buffy, and how the audience experienced that, and how Spike did. We were introduced to Angel as him being Buffy's love interest. Everything we knew about him was tied to her.

That's just summed up part of what I hate about Bangel.

This thread has been interesting but I don't really have much more to add. I'm just gonna sit back and agree with everything StarSlayer says, LOL.

 

[Icarium]

They wrote genre television, and genre always assumes suspension of disbelief. Whether it's a bazooka stolen from a military base by two teenagers or a vampire's soul.

There is a world of difference between suspension of disbelief and a story contradicting itself. I mean, the Sunnydale residents not noticing what happens in their town stretches suspension of disbelief quite a lot but it's the premise of the show and they remain ignorant to the very end, so there is no contradiction. Obviously, such things can be even more annoying for many viewers than internal inconsistencies in the story but still, we are talking about two different things.

And if anything, said contradiction are even more damaging in a sci-fi or fantasy shows. If a show set strictly in our world, factual errors can be checked and fans can move on or decide not to watch it any more if they think the mistakes are too many and too glaring. In a show where the writer has to create much of the world, the fans can still discuss a decade later whether something was a mistake or was intended, say whether magic is really addictive or not. Or whether vampires can be "good".

I love Willow/Tara, Giles/Jenny and especially Xander/Cordy - their dynamics is very similar to Spuffy, I think.

I don't want to start a shipping war but morality issues aside, Spuffy for me just lacks the hilarious banter that's the best part of Xander/Cordelia. Too much angst. Xander/Anya is just as implausible as Spuffy, IMO, but at least it had its fun moments.

I imagine if we had met Angelus first and he ended up falling for Buffy you would hear very similar complaints from fans.

Exactly.