Question Do you Think Lindsay deserved to die?

[Icarium]

Who else were given a chance twice?

Anya, Spike, Angel, Faith, Connor, heck, even Harmony.

Lindsey never killed anyone as far as I can remember.

No, he "merely" ordered people to be killed. Which isn't exactly any better, otherwise Jack The Ripper would be considered a more monstrous person than Hitler or Stalin.

Faith chose evil with the Mayor but wasn't given an option to be good again either.

Of course she was. Many times actually.

I am beginning to think Joss killed Lindsey for the shock factor because heck I never saw it coming.

Yes, I think that's by far the most plausible version. Joss likes "redemption" stories but he likes "gotcha!" twists even more. 😀

 

[LadyLavinia]

Doesn't necassarily make it wrong in my book, if it stops other people being hurt.

It makes it wrong in my book, unless you're a cop or someone else defending a person from another who is an IMMEDIATE THREAT.

Angel and Lorne are murderers, pure and simple.

 

[Angelus Domini]

Anya, Spike, Angel, Faith, Connor, heck, even Harmony.

Anya, only once. When she wanted to become human again, after turning back into a Vengeance demon again. She wasn't given an option to be "good". She was forced to live a human life after her necklace was broken by Giles. It wasn't for her to choose.

Spike was forced into it by the chip, his soul, and his love for Buffy. He wasn't given a choice. It just happened. He didn't choose to be "good" and got his soul back. He wanted his soul back so Buffy would like him. He figured, that's what he didn't have but Angel had. It was never about being "good". It was more like "I'll do this so that Buffy will like me".

Angel was given a choice by Whistler, to be good. But he already was "good" ever since he got his soul and broke away from Darla, Spike, and Drusilla. Besides, he was cursed. He wasn't given a choice.

Faith was also forced into being good by Angel and Buffy. It was never her choice. Her choice was to go to jail to reflect, not to be "good".

Connor wasn't given a choice either. He was sent to a Hell Dimension, manipulated by Holtz, and memory edited.

Harmony was given a job, and was forced by Angel's new rule about not drinking human blood. She was forced. Not her choice.

Lindsey on the other hand, was given a choice by Holland Manners. And another choice by Angel. Notice how he wasn't forced to do any of his choices or had to fight for them. It was just handed to him. No other character were ever just given redemption that easily.

 

[Lyri]

Anya, only once. When she wanted to become human again, after turning back into a Vengeance demon again. She wasn't given an option to be "good". She was forced to live a human life after her necklace was broken by Giles. It wasn't for her to choose.

She was proficient at magic, she could have gone done the black arts route and made a name for herself as a powerful black witch. She could have left Sunnydale and never looked back. Instead she CHOSE to stay with Xander and Buffy and be a part of the white hats.

Spike was forced into it by the chip, his soul, and his love for Buffy. He wasn't given a choice. It just happened. He didn't choose to be "good" and got his soul back. He wanted his soul back so Buffy would like him. He figured, that's what he didn't have but Angel had. It was never about being "good". It was more like "I'll do this so that Buffy will like me".

He could have left. Could have found someone to get the chip out, used influence as William the Bloody, but he didn't even look for anyone to do that past S5. He could have gone back to Drusilla and it would have been her turn to look after him, she was willing to accept him. Instead he CHOSE to stay in Sunnydale, with Buffy and be a part of the white hats.

Angel was given a choice by Whistler, to be good. But he already was "good" ever since he got his soul and broke away from Darla, Spike, and Drusilla. Besides, he was cursed. He wasn't given a choice.

Just because he had a soul doesn't automatically make him 'good'. Charles Manson has a soul. Ted Bundy had a soul. That's not an argument. Angel CHOSE to help Buffy, CHOSE to go to LA and help the helpless.

Faith was also forced into being good by Angel and Buffy. It was never her choice. Her choice was to go to jail to reflect, not to be "good".

Faith turned herself in. She could have run. She could have killed Wesley, then Angel and left, never to be seen again. She could have broken out of jail countless times before she did in 'Release'. Instead she CHOSE to pay for her crimes by staying in jail, she CHOSE to go back to her Calling and Slaying.

Connor wasn't given a choice either. He was sent to a Hell Dimension, manipulated by Holtz, and memory edited.

Connor, I'll give you. He was kidnapped and brainwashed. But he thought he was doing what was right, but we, as viewers, or at least some of you who aren't me, saw his the bad guy.

Harmony was given a job, and was forced by Angel's new rule about not drinking human blood. She was forced. Not her choice.

No one forced her to work at W&H. She could have left anytime she wanted. Instead she CHOSE to stay and adhere to the 'no human blood' policy and work for the white hats.

Lindsey on the other hand, was given a choice by Holland Manners. And another choice by Angel. Notice how he wasn't forced to do any of his choices or had to fight for them. It was just handed to him. No other character were ever just given redemption that easily.

Willow, after killing someone in cold blood and trying to end the world because of her grief, was welcomed back with open arms and without a word being said about what she did. Her friends gave her a second chance to be good without question. How is this not an easy shot at redemption?

 

[Angelus Domini]

None of those persons were ever OFFERED a chance to be "good". Circumstance forced them to choose. It was never offered.

Holland offered it to Lindsey. Angel offered it to Lindsey. Twice he chose to be evil, when given a choice to be good.

The only persons offered a choice ONCE, not twice, was Willow and Angel.

Angel was offered a choice to do something with his life, not to choose between "good" and "evil", by Whistler. All circumstance where he turned into Angelus was not a choice to be "good", if it were a choice at all.

Willow refused an offer by D'Hoffryn to be evil, a Vengeance demon. But she was already good to begin with.

Spike wanted his soul back to impress Buffy. It wasn't about choosing to be good. Besides, his soul wasn't offered to him.

Anya requested it from D'Hoffryn. It was never offered by D'Hoffryn to turn her human.

The Mayor offered evil to Faith, not good. Faith was never offered a choice after that.

It's different when you're offered a choice instead of having to make a choice yourself due to circumstances.

 

[Icarium]

Anya, only once. When she wanted to become human again, after turning back into a Vengeance demon again. She wasn't given an option to be "good". She was forced to live a human life after her necklace was broken by Giles. It wasn't for her to choose.

Spike was forced into it by the chip, his soul, and his love for Buffy. He wasn't given a choice. It just happened. He didn't choose to be "good" and got his soul back. He wanted his soul back so Buffy would like him. He figured, that's what he didn't have but Angel had. It was never about being "good". It was more like "I'll do this so that Buffy will like me".

Angel was given a choice by Whistler, to be good. But he already was "good" ever since he got his soul and broke away from Darla, Spike, and Drusilla. Besides, he was cursed. He wasn't given a choice.

Faith was also forced into being good by Angel and Buffy. It was never her choice. Her choice was to go to jail to reflect, not to be "good".

Connor wasn't given a choice either. He was sent to a Hell Dimension, manipulated by Holtz, and memory edited.

Harmony was given a job, and was forced by Angel's new rule about not drinking human blood. She was forced. Not her choice.

Lindsey on the other hand, was given a choice by Holland Manners. And another choice by Angel. Notice how he wasn't forced to do any of his choices or had to fight for them. It was just handed to him. No other character were ever just given redemption that easily.

You seem to be confusing giving someone a choice with giving someone a chance. I was replying to your claim that only Lindsay was given a chance to become good twice.

Anya was given a chance in Doppelgangland, when she was not punished for the people Dark Willow killed, then again by including her into the Scooby gang, then once again when she become Anyanka 2.0 and Buffy did nothing about that for months.

Spike was given about 3439483948 chances. Ditto for Angel.

Faith was given chances all the way from Consequences to Sanctuary, then again in S7. Connor got many chances but he kept on turning against Angel. Harmony was spared by Buffy, then by Cordelia, then again by Angel, even after she betrayed him. Many people paid with their lives because Angel, Buffy and their friends kept giving every other villain second, third or umpteenth chance.

 

[Lyri]

It's different when you're offered a choice instead of having to make a choice yourself due to circumstances.

I disagree. It doesn't matter how a choice comes about, it's still a choice that is given to the person in question, and whether they accept it or not is all on them. Apart from the vampires, who didn't choose to become vampires they were merely taken, each of those characters who got a shot at redemption chose to be good, to fight the good fight.

Lindsey turned that down, I'm not disputing that. He was human, he came from a poor family, a poor background and he didn't want to go back to that. He chose the money and the power and the life that a junior partner of W&H could be expected to have. And I can't really say I blame him for that.

Faith was offered the chance of redemption after she killed Finch and she turned it down to work for the Mayor and kill again. Yet, she was finally able to get her redemption.

I'm not saying Lindsey was a great guy, we all know he was a bit of a bastard who blamed Angel for all the screw-ups in his life. But did he deserve to be killed for something that might or might not happen at some point in the, maybe, distant future? No, absolutely not.

I don't blame Lorne for Lindsey's death, because Angel forced him into it. But I do agree with what LadyLavinia said. Angel is a murderer. Simple.

 

[Angelus Domini]

It's very different when you're offered a choice and when you have to make a choice.

Lindsey was given a choice by Holland. To be free. To lead a normal life. Lindsey could still be a lawyer and earn money. He just won't have the W&H connections. He could make money. He could be good.

Angel also gave him his choice... well... right before or after cutting off his hand. But still, it was offered to him.

Who was ever offered a clean choice, twice, like that, to be good, except the hand-cutting part, and yet chose to be evil?

Lindsey needed to be killed because Angel thought he and his friends will die, making Lindsey almost unstoppable being LA W&H CEO once they're gone.

 

[Lyri]

Lindsey needed to be killed because Angel thought he and his friends will die, making Lindsey almost unstoppable being LA W&H CEO once they're gone.

Who said Lindsey was going to be W&H's CEO? He didn't even work for them anymore, and they sure didn't want him when they sent him to that 'holding dimension'.

And what about Angel? His friends live in danger every day, danger of him losing his soul, which he doesn't always need Buffy for, as we found out, spells work just fine.

And, oh, look what happened! Angel went and became Twilight and killed A LOT of people. How is that any different to what Lindsey 'might' do?

 

[Angelus Domini]

Angel became Twilight to make the Slayer Organization stronger. It was never about "being evil" or enjoying the kill or even ruling the world. It's just like a coach being really tough on the team so that they'll get better. Twilight/Angel was somewhat training them to be able to fight bigger evils.

Angel = can be good.. might go evil sometimes.
Lindsey = offered twice to be good... chose to be evil.

There was a high probability that he would be the next CEO of LA W&H. Angel said so. He just didn't say CEO. He just said, something about being in charge, and that he would be the one. It's safe to assume that's W&H.

 

[Lyri]

Angel became Twilight to make the Slayer Organization stronger. It was never about "being evil" or enjoying the kill or even ruling the world. It's just like a coach being really tough on the team so that they'll get better. Twilight/Angel was somewhat training them to be able to fight bigger evils.

So, MURDERING dozens of girls was 'training'? Wow, SO glad I wasn't on that training team.

If I was part of that verse, and that was the kind of company I could potentially find myself keeping, sorry, but I'll take the morally gray human any day of the week, as opposed to the morally gray vampire who kills people for 'training' or because they 'might' do something bad sixty years from next Thursday.

 

[Angelus Domini]

If he didn't do that, when an evil greater than Twilight would surface, the Slayer Organization might loose because they didn't have the 'training'. Once that happens, everyone on the good side dies.

 

[citiegal17]

If he didn't do that, when an evil greater than Twilight would surface, the Slayer Organization might loose because they didn't have the 'training'. Once that happens, everyone on the good side dies.

Everyone would have been better off if Angel never became Twilight period. His plan got a bunch innocent people killed for some stupid suppost destiny, and his actions have damaged the world and destroyed lives. His plan was evil and you can't do good by evil.

 

[Marisa]

According to Chris Kane, Joss had been trying to kill Lindsey since S2, and Chris always refused to do the episode, so it had to be rewritten and other people were killed instead (Gavin, Lilah, Lindwood among others.) When they found out the show had been cancelled. Chris asked Joss what he was going to do now, and Joss' reply was: 'I'm going to *bleeping* kill you.' As Chris was contracted to the end of the season, he couldn't say no that time.

But both Chris and Andy, RIP, hated shooting that scene, and it still ranks as one of Chris's worst moments on screen.

Thanks for clearing that up Lyri. Where did you hear this interview btw want to watch it.
That sucks for both of them and it irritates me because Lorne was always the good hearted one and Angel made him do it. I see how Lindsey wouldn't expect it so maybe that was Angel's logic but Angel should have done it himself or not done it at all.
I don't know why Joss would want to kill Lindsey he made some of the best moments in that series.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Maybe he did in the beginning. I would have understood. But when he did die (murdered), he didn't deserve it. I believe he could be redeemed. Also, he's human. Angel killing a human is not such a great thing. He's supposed to be the hero, helping the helpless, not kill humans. And it's not the first time he killed a human not as Angelus.

 

[Lyri]

Thanks for clearing that up Lyri. Where did you hear this interview btw want to watch it.

It wasn't an interview. He was talking about it at the Convention I attended in November, so it's not online.

---------- Post added at 04:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

If he didn't do that, when an evil greater than Twilight would surface, the Slayer Organization might loose because they didn't have the 'training'. Once that happens, everyone on the good side dies.

I just don't understand your logic. Murdering dozens of girls, attacking Buffy, killing Giles, that's all in the name of training? How in the world does demoralizing everyone by killing their friends make them better?

 

[Washburne]

Seems this thread is containing Buffy s.8 spoilers so I won't read more than I already have. So I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something old.

Also, he's human. Angel killing a human is not such a great thing. He's supposed to be the hero, helping the helpless, not kill humans. And it's not the first time he killed a human not as Angelus.

It was Angels order but it was a demon that killed Lindsay. 😉 A demon that could have ignored his order but seeing Lindsays future he did it anyway. Is it ok to kill someone based on what they'll do? Morally no but if you could have killed Hitler early on (be it in his baby years or when he's older) "knowing" what he'd cause would you do it?

What if you help the helpless by killing a human, is it ok then? And just think about real life heroes.


Hmmm, with that said it sounds like I think killing Lindsay was a great idea. I don't. Just that there's a lot to think about.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Seems this thread is containing Buffy s.8 spoilers so I won't read more than I already have. So I'm sorry if I'm bringing up something old.



It was Angels order but it was a demon that killed Lindsay. 😉 A demon that could have ignored his order but seeing Lindsays future he did it anyway. Is it ok to kill someone based on what they'll do? Morally no but if you could have killed Hitler early on (be it in his baby years or when he's older) "knowing" what he'd cause would you do it?

What if you help the helpless by killing a human, is it ok then? And just think about real life heroes.


Hmmm, with that said it sounds like I think killing Lindsay was a great idea. I don't. Just that there's a lot to think about.

Don't know if you'll see my post LOL
but anyway, it doesn't matter who did the actual killing. I mean, it does, but the one who gives the order has a part in the murdering. So Angel still have human blood on his hands, and not for the first time.

Angel wants to fight evil from the good side of the field, but sometimes he does that by killing humans and it's so double standard. No, in real life, killing humans in order to save other humans is not allowed either.

 

[Taake]

but sometimes he does that by killing humans and it's so double standard. No, in real life, killing humans in order to save other humans is not allowed either.

Now I'm machiavellian in my nature but I would say that a certain amount of hypocrisy is unavoidable, especially in a situation such as Angel's. To me sometimes the end has to justify the means. For the greater good decisions are usually morally shady at best (e.g. Giles killing Ben) but it is at times things that need to be done. (The entire Watcher's council I'm sure have a lot of things to be held accountable in respects such as these)

However the question is did Lindsey deserve to die?
Answer: No, I don't think anyone deserves that.

Did I think Angel made the right choice: yes, see reason up above.

Do I think Angel had the right to make that choice: No. He put himself in a superior position of judgement, deeming his 'reasoning' above human or other law. (Just like the WC does and there too the problem becomes that what they deem right is not necessarily so...)

As you will see my answers are in a way in opposition of each other. But at the same time not, because again to mean the end justfies the means (of course most won't agree with this)

Before I start rambling I'll just say that I don't think that Angel thought that he had the right to make the decision either.

I think he just saw the need for that decision to be made.

 

[Seeing Red]

Noone deserves to be killed. It was not Angels place to take Lindsay's life, no matter the reason.