Question Do you Think Lindsay deserved to die?

[Chosen Enemy]

Now I'm machiavellian in my nature but I would say that a certain amount of hypocrisy is unavoidable, especially in a situation such as Angel's. To me sometimes the end has to justify the means. For the greater good decisions are usually morally shady at best (e.g. Giles killing Ben) but it is at times things that need to be done. (The entire Watcher's council I'm sure have a lot of things to be held accountable in respects such as these)

However the question is did Lindsey deserve to die?
Answer: No, I don't think anyone deserves that.

Did I think Angel made the right choice: yes, see reason up above.

Do I think Angel had the right to make that choice: No. He put himself in a superior position of judgement, deeming his 'reasoning' above human or other law. (Just like the WC does and there too the problem becomes that what they deem right is not necessarily so...)

As you will see my answers are in a way in opposition of each other. But at the same time not, because again to mean the end justfies the means (of course most won't agree with this)

Before I start rambling I'll just say that I don't think that Angel thought that he had the right to make the decision either.

I think he just saw the need for that decision to be made.

In real life it's called "murder" not "killing for the greater good". I realize that it's just a show, but if it was real life and Angel killed a human being, he's simply a murdered, because he has a soul. He can tell between right and wrong. Even real life murderers they don't often kill. And Lindsay wasn't a huge threat on humanity that he needed to be killed. It wasn't even self defence.

 

[Washburne]

Don't know if you'll see my post LOL

I do. 🙂

but anyway, it doesn't matter who did the actual killing. I mean, it does, but the one who gives the order has a part in the murdering. So Angel still have human blood on his hands, and not for the first time.

Oh, he definitely does. No argument about that.

Angel wants to fight evil from the good side of the field, but sometimes he does that by killing humans and it's so double standard. No, in real life, killing humans in order to save other humans is not allowed either.

How do you want to punish presidents, militaries etc for doing things they see as good, including killing or give orders that mean that people will die? Is it enough to say that they got blood on their hands and that's it? Should we call them all evil? Throw them in jail?

And then you have the case of who decides what's good or bad. Some see USA as the ones to turn to when in doubt while others see them as the great Satan. And some are somewhere between. How you see things depend on where your stand. No wonder there's so much trouble in the world...


Yeah... That probably took things a bit too much off topic. Read Taake's post again. It's a good one.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:56 PM ----------

And Lindsay wasn't a huge threat on humanity that he needed to be killed.

What do you know that Lorne doesn't? 😉

 

[LadyLavinia]

Now I'm machiavellian in my nature but I would say that a certain amount of hypocrisy is unavoidable, especially in a situation such as Angel's. To me sometimes the end has to justify the means. For the greater good decisions are usually morally shady at best (e.g. Giles killing Ben) but it is at times things that need to be done. (The entire Watcher's council I'm sure have a lot of things to be held accountable in respects such as these

)



"The ends justify the means"? I hate that phrase so much that it makes my teeth hurts. And it reminds me at the means and excuses humans utilize in order to indulge in their blood lust.

If Angel and Lorne thought that Lindsay might be a future threat, all they had to do was keep an eye on him one way or the other. And when the threat from Lindsay proved to be immediate, then they could have acted against him.

The idea that it's okay to kill someone because they might be a future threat is strikes me as nothing more than exercises in hypocrisy, arrogance and murder.

 

[Icarium]

If Angel and Lorne thought that Lindsay might be a future threat, all they had to do was keep an eye on him one way or the other. And when the threat from Lindsay proved to be immediate, then they could have acted against him.

Isn't that what Angel was doing about all the W&H human employees from the start? Wasn't all that successful and he had to rely on other entities to eliminate them quite a few times. And of course, a bit difficult to pull off even in the best of circumstances, let alone when you are preparing for a suicidal last stand.

In real life it's called "murder" not "killing for the greater good".

In real life, you could give the Lindsays to the police. In the Buffyverse, there is a secret war going on. It's either kill or let the bad guys kill more innocents. Not a good choice, obviously, but personally I dislike characters who refuse to dirty their hands even in the most extreme of circumstances. Not because I am so bloodthirsty but because the plot in 99% of the cases contrives to resolves their problems in some other way, often in a very stupid way. For instance in The Gift where Buffy refuses to kill Dawn and somehow, against all logic and reason, her own suicide manages to close the portal. In real life miraculous third options are pretty rare. Also, the victims of those choices (say the people Faith or Spike or Anya or Lindsay killed) tend to be ignored. By refusing to deal with the Faiths and Lindsays, Buffy and Angel basically proclaim that for them Faith's life or Lindsay's life is more important than those of their victims. Not a message I like, to put it mildly.

 

[Bluebird]

Nope. Lindsey was pretty well behaved in his evilness when compared to the actual main characters. Angel's reasoning for killing him, if I remember right, was that he couldn't trust him? And actually, Lindsey never did anything really bad towards anyone else other than Angel. So that's a personal grudge on Angel's part, nothing more.

 

[Icarium]

And actually, Lindsey never did anything really bad towards anyone else other than Angel.

Yes, I am sure he rose in Wolfram and Hart without ever doing anything bad...

 

[Brandonxx93]

Yes I believe that it was the right thing to. Killing him solved a lot more problems. He had his chance at redemption once he left in season 2 but ruined it. I support Angels choice.

 

[Taake]

If Angel and Lorne thought that Lindsay might be a future threat, all they had to do was keep an eye on him one way or the other. And when the threat from Lindsay proved to be immediate, then they could have acted against him.

How were they supposed to keep an eye on him? They seemed more or less sure that it was their last day on Earth. Angel seemed fairly pessimistic about their out-look on winning at least and thereby he would have deduced that there was a risk that they would not be around to 'keep an eye' on anyone.

It's not a perfect scenario, at best it's a morally ambiguous area to move around in, but push comes to shove - sometimes tough/bad decisions need to be made. But yeah, I've more or less already explained my reasoning in this and if I continue now I'll just reiterate previous statements.

 

[The Scourge]

Lindsey was my absolute favorite character from the series, but if anyone ever needed to die it would be him.

He's had his opportunities to join the side of good before and has chosen the side of evil or his own self-interests every time.

Plus, seeing as how Lindsey tried to kill Angel and his friends a few weeks before Not Fade Away, his morals are the same as ever.

Angel knew that taking on the Black Thorn/Senior Partners would be a suicide mission for him and the others and was not about to take the chance that Lindsey would survive and continue to cause trouble.

Did I want Lindsey to die? No. Is murder wrong? Duh. But this is fiction, not reality. Did Angel make the right choice? There is no way to know. I see it as Angel making a difficult but necessary call; a 'the ends justify the means' situation.

 

[citiegal17]

Lindsey was my absolute favorite character from the series, but if anyone ever needed to die it would be him.

He's had his opportunities to join the side of good before and has chosen the side of evil or his own self-interests every time.

Plus, seeing as how Lindsey tried to kill Angel and his friends a few weeks before Not Fade Away, his morals are the same as ever.

Angel knew that taking on the Black Thorn/Senior Partners would be a suicide mission for him and the others and was not about to take the chance that Lindsey would survive and continue to cause trouble.

Did I want Lindsey to die? No. Is murder wrong? Duh. But this is fiction, not reality. Did Angel make the right choice? There is no way to know. I see it as Angel making a difficult but necessary call; a 'the ends justify the means' situation.

Angel killed a champion to get in the Black Thorn he doesn't have any morally superiority to Lindsey at all, he also became Twilight which makes Angel a hypocrite. Also I don't believe the ends justify the means, murder is murder, and killing Lindsey just made Angel and Lorne murders. There wasn't nothing neccessary about killing Lindsey, he was a danger to anyone at the moment, and there was no proof he would be a danger in the future and Lorne gift isnt' perfect he didn't even read Knox correctly, and no one was in immediate danger with Lindsey. Angel has always used the ends justify method but at the end of the day its just doing evil. Its also stupid in battle to take out a solider you might need, and considering LA went to hell it makes even more stupid to do it. Its is also an insult to Doyle who sacrificed himself so Angel could save people not pass judgement and murder them whenver he thought it was justified, Doyle plenty well warned Angel early on if he gave into darkness and committed evil deeds it would blow up in face and it did in season 5 of Angel and Buffy season 8.

 

[TeamSunnydale]

Well, I'm a little torn.
Lindsay was evil, he couldn't be trusted and probably would have killed angel at first opportunity.
But also, when other characters went evil like willow, they were given second chances. But i think lindsay was a bit beyond that.