Do you think that Angel had every right to react the way he did?

If Wes had been up front with Angel at the beginning then perhaps season 3 wouldn't have been so dramatic at the end, but I don't blame Angel or Wesley for their actions, both actions seemed natural for their characters...
 
if someone had stolen my kid they would never have had the chance to apologize. wes is lucky angel didn't just snap his neck
 
IMO, if Wes thought the prophecy was true - and he had no reason not to - he had a right to try to save the baby. Only, he should have told someone else so Angel couldn't hold him personally responsible.

But then again it served the story's purpose and helped age Connor.
 
At the time I was pissed at Angel for doing that to Wesley... but I'm a big Wesley fan so. I can see why he'd want to kill him when his son is gone and he thinks dead... but Wesley thought he was doing the right thing. It pissed me off more that Cordelia did nothing, Wesley had his throat slit trying to *save* Connor, and she doesn't even visit him after everything, what a $$%^^@!
 
kanga said:
At the time I was pissed at Angel for doing that to Wesley... but I'm a big Wesley fan so. I can see why he'd want to kill him when his son is gone and he thinks dead... but Wesley thought he was doing the right thing. It pissed me off more that Cordelia did nothing, Wesley had his throat slit trying to *save* Connor, and she doesn't even visit him after everything, what a $$%^^@!
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I was more upset by Fred's reaction throughout the whole thing more than I was by Cordy's lack of reaction.
 
It wasn't "okay", but speaking as a father...if it had been me in Angel's shoes, I would have done the same thing.
 
I'm kind of torn between this issue. I think that what Angel tried to do to Wes was horrible, but justified. I mean, Angel finally had some happiness in his life without turning evil and then it got taken away from him, by his friend! However, Wesley was just trying to protect baby Conner. However, Wesley should have told the gang what he was going to do. I don't know why he thought it was best to keep what he was planning on doing with Angel's son a secret.
 
Yes I do. Angel and not gone bad. Wes should have gone to him. Angel would never hurt Connor and he would have set in motion plans to protect him. Include the group. I think Wes did very wrong. I would have killed him if it were my son. That's just something you do not mess with. A parents child. Angel will never have another son, and not saying you can replace a child or anything, but that was it for him. That was his mark on the world and Wes took it away. Well for a while anyways.
 
Wes should've at least considered that maybe it was a set-up, especially considering how many enemies Angel had, and how many people were after Conner. I don't know if the way Angel reacted was 'appropriate', but I can understand where he was coming from.
 
Not speaking from personal experience but seems to me like any parent would have done the same thing, wes should consider himself lucky that darla had died
 
I can sympathize with Angel, here. I think Wes was wrong. I think he had good intentions, but that Wes had no right to try to make decisions for "their own good" without consulting Angel (on his own behalf and on Connor's behalf).

That said, I don't think Angel was in any position to attempt to murder anyone over doing that making decisions for one's own good thing, even if it did involve Connor. Add to that the fact that Wes was in the hospital, possibly dying anyway, and unable to fight back or even to scream... and that's the point at which my sympathies shift.

If Angel wanted to call Wes out for what he did, then fine. I think Wes would have accepted that, too. But he should have allowed Wes to explain his reasoning, at least. And he shouldn't have attacked him until he was able to defend himself. Also, maybe he should have reflected on his own propensity to make that making-decisions-for-other-people mistake.
 
I get what your saying but at the end of the day he had just watched his son be taken to a hell dimension by the one person in the world who hated him the most. Rational thought was pretty much a distant memory at that stage. When Angel did get the chance to think about it (his summer under the sea...anybody else start singing the song in their head?...No :blush: focus sinéad..) he forgave wes and apologised. He was grieving, i mean look at how Buffy reacted when Faith shot Angel with the arrow? she tried to kill her, or the mayor trying to smother Buffy in the hospital afterwards...with Angel its the same thing...they attacked those they held responsible for their loved ones being hurt. They were all people used to being in control an having the power and suddenly they were helpless when it mattered the most. Frankly, I would expect Angel to react that way. I know if one of my friends kidnapped my child, my first thought wouldn't be to wait until a more suitable time to broach the topic.
 
I get what you're saying, too. I think Angel's reaction was completely normal and healthy. Most people go a little berserk when their kid is kidnapped and/or killed. I'm not a parent, but as I understand it, that protect-the-young instinct is strong.

But the question posed by the thread is did Angel have every right to act as he did. "Right" is not always the same as "natural." In fact, doing what's right very often requires one to curb natural impulses. Like I said, I can sympathize with what Angel did. I just don't think it was right.

I feel similarly about what Wes did. Ultimately, I'm glad that they were able to work things out.
 
palabravampiress said:
I feel similarly about what Wes did. Ultimately, I'm glad that they were able to work things out.
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But they weren't able to work things out. Look at the rest of Season 3. Look at Season 4. He's an outcast to everyone other to Fred. Angel never forgave him. The only time they were even REMOTELY chummy after that was in Season 5, when coincidently, Wes lost his memory of what he did.
 
benboy606 said:
But they weren't able to work things out. Look at the rest of Season 3. Look at Season 4. He's an outcast to everyone other to Fred. Angel never forgave him. The only time they were even REMOTELY chummy after that was in Season 5, when coincidently, Wes lost his memory of what he did.
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It wasn't coincidently...he was supposed to lose his memory...but really how do you get past that..sure you can forgive but no matter what angel does they couldn't forget
 
I know he was supposed to lose his memory. My point is that the only time they even talk AT ALL is when he doesn't remember what he did. Meaning, he never forgave himself, and Angel never forgave Wes.
 
I don't think Angel was right. Like, at all.

While it was immensely stupid of Wesley to collaborate with Holtz instead of confiding with the other guys, I'm absolutely backing his decision of taking Connor away without consulting Angel about it. With the data at hand, that's the best decision to make. It's doing the right thing for the right reason - just with very bad judgment on whom to ask for help in executing it, and this choice of help leading to disaster. And it's not like Wesley didn't pay enough of a price for his mistake; the man got his throat slit, for goodness sake!

Honestly, the first time I saw Angel trying to smother Wes with the pillow, I couldn't help but side with Holtz in the opinion of "soul or not, who cares - that guy is a monster" (especially with Angel making it clear that he's NOT Angelus at that time). I wouldn't have minded anyone staking one more vampire then and there. I have more of an issue with anyone trusting Angel ever again after this ep, not Wes. Wes earned mistrust for lack of cueing anyone else in the team in on his plan, I grant that immediately, but the way everyone treated him was considerably too harsh (Fred possibly excepted, she did seem to be avoiding him mostly because of group pressure), while everyone was way, WAY too light on Angel - who IMO justly deserved a timeout in the wet corner over that summer to think about behaving.

I grant that maybe my opinion is influenced by the fact that I am not and will never be a parent... but honestly, if being a parent would make me see Angel's behavior there as acceptable, that would be one humongous reason for me thanking God I'll never be one. Heck, I'd go so far to back him up on "I never want to see or speak to that man again"... but "I'm going to kill you now, and btw: I'm the good guy"? No, fangster, you are most definitely not.

I also fully agree with WA and PV about Angel being a master of dishing out lone decisions over other people's heads, but a sucker when it comes to be at the receiving end of it.
 
Old Master 3.0
Old Master 3.0
Well done.
And it's not like Wesley didn't pay enough of a price for his mistake; the man got his throat slit, for goodness sake!
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Price you pay for trafficking with demons... err not demons.
Bad judgment all the way around.
Double-cross within double-cross within double-cross within double-cross.

Here's an interesting question to ponder: if Angel loved his son so very much, shouldn't he have turned evil when he was born?
Not even one moment of complete happiness? There's a harsh reality for the kid to recognize later on.
I find it hard to believe that Darla's sacrifice would dampen the event so completely.

I'm pretty sure his curse wasn't about just getting his rocks off with a cheerleader as the condition.
 
S
SC7 Fan
Good point
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