I didn't mean the Big Band of S6 when I said that, I meant, Big Bad as in the name Spike uses when he's referring to himself.
I more or less understood that. I just wanted to point out that all of the Scoobies had done terrible things and hurt the people they loved. I would argue that Willow's abuse of Tara was almost as bad as Spike's abuse of Buffy. But we don't have a firm grasp magic and mind-raping because it's not real. The scene with Buffy and Spike could have just as easily been a real-life scenario.
That was sarcasm, when I said that. Back when S6 was on the air, Spike was my favorite character, and I wanted him to have that perfect ever after with Buffy. I was sure that things would work out between them, and they'd get that happily ever after. Spike is no longer my favorite character (ignore the AV) but he is still in my top 5, but I can say that is was a combination of this ep, plus watching the whole series back to back within a matter of weeks that made me realize what I'd missed back then.
Hah, my bad! Sarcasm does make more sense. Regarding the fact that you rewatched it and "caught what you missed," though, that makes me sad. I've rewatched numerous times and still see what I always saw. Glad he still managed to claw out a place in top 5, though!
To me, it doesn't matter if he would have went through with it or not, the point is he TRIED. The first thing he thought he should do when he thought the chip was broken was to kill. Doesn't matter that he had to psyche himself up, that could be put down to the fact that he'd gone more than two years without killing a human and he needed to remind himself that who he was. Yes, he's a vampire, yes, it's in his nature, but if everyone is making the argument that he was different, that loving Buffy made him a better man, then shouldn't he have known that doing this would be the best way to make sure Buffy would NEVER truly love him?
Of course you're right. He did try, and he may have succeeded if he'd been able. I completely understand how that can be viewed the other way. But the way I look at it is, if you tell a man he's a monster long enough, what's he going to try to be but a monster? Spike has always had a problem with his identity, most especially with Buffy and the chip. Loving Buffy did make him a better man. Even by S6 he was better than he had been before. However, I never said that made him a
good man. But comparatively, from mass-murdering without thought to having to jazz himself up for the kill, that's already a vast improvement.
If you look at Spike with a strict moral code, you'll never like him. You just can't, because the fact is, he did start as a murderer. If you look at him as an evolving character, though, then you'll find him one of the most interesting in the "˜verse. Or at least I did.
He did choose to attack Buffy, though, in that abandoned house. He said himself, he went in with the purpose of not hurting her 'much' which means he wanted to hurt her 'some'. Buffy didn't return his affections, so he attacked her. In 'Seeing Red' she didn't return his affections, so he attacked her again.
Yes, he attacked her, but he wouldn't kill her. That was my point. Violence was in his nature, just like it was in hers. If there's any way they ever connected in S6, it was through that. And don't forget, Buffy wanted to hurt him too, and more than that, she wanted him to hurt her.
As far as I can remember, Spike didn't stop his attack, Buffy MADE him stop. It was only then that he realized what he'd done, and was horrified by his actions. If Buffy hadn't been able to stop him, I really don't think, at that precise moment, that Spike would have been able to stop himself. And we wouldn't be talking AR here, it would have been just plain R.
Yes, that's true. It was clear that he had completely checked out in that scene, and that in itself was terrifying to watch. Once he came back to himself and realized what he'd done, he was horrified, but I don't think Spike would have been able to stop himself either. It's what makes me hate that scene so much more.
'Seeing Red' reminded all of us, Spike and Buffy included, that Spike was still a soulless vampire, capable of killing Buffy if she breathed wrong. Or attempting to, anyway. It forced everyone to come to terms with their actions, forced Buffy to be a better mother, Xander to be a better friend, and Spike to be a better man, which he ultimately became.
Again, disagree to an extent. It reminded all of us that he had a fundamental error and needed a serious, serious change. But do I think he was capable of actually killing Buffy? I don't think so. The attack was from a completely different place, and in Spike's twisted mind, he wasn't doing it to hurt her. He was doing it out of a selfish need to have her accept him, and also out of a so-called need to make her accept herself"”although that last part I just take as an excuse.
I agree that it forced all of them to come to terms with everything, and in that sense it helped all of their character developments. But I don't think it "proved" Spike was a bad man, or at least one beyond redemption. It was a realization that if he didn't change, he would never complete the metamorphosis he had begun upon falling in love with Buffy.
I don't hold Spike to any standards. Yes, he got himself a soul because he wanted to be the man he thought Buffy deserved, but I don't think 'Seeing Red' or the AR should be disregarded when people are talking about Spike and the Spuffy relationship, which so many people seem to do. Spike fans like to point out that Spike didn't have a soul when 'Seeing Red' took place, so he shouldn't be held accountable for his actions. But then in the same breath they're saying that Spike was a changed man by the time S6 rolled around, he was considered able to look after Dawn alone, he fought with the Scoobies, he found a way to be good. They can't have it both ways.
It should never be disregarded, but I don't think you can blame that on the fans as much as the writers. The AR was a cheap plot device, and they used it to suit their purposes. But beyond showing how guilty and horrified Spike felt about it, they didn't seem to want to address the issue again.
I don't excuse Spike for the things he's done, and I wouldn't want anyone to. I always viewed him as a better man than he was generally thought to be, and I always believed in him. He was a changed man in S6. But that doesn't mean he still didn't have a lot more changes to make.
