Eliminating "Seeing Red"

[white avenger]

Flannen agrees: Unfortunately this is all implied and suggested. If Angel/us had been seen doing this in the same way as Spike did then it would be the same. But it's easier to be less affected by what is implied and not shown.

So Angelus gets a pass for what was only implied, but almost certainly, knowing his character, took place, while Spike can never be forgiven by the fans for what he attempted once, but didn't succeed. Luckily Buffy was more understanding than the fans, or Season 7 would have had to be completely rewritten. Maybe the First could have triggered Andrew.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I dont know if this would change anything for me, it might have.

And I don't know if there is a way to argue this becasue Angel and Angelous were 2 completely separate personalities, very defined line, even having 2 separate names.

Spike wasn't like that. And people have said that he should be forgiven becasue he had no soul at the time, but when it comes to talking above how Spike can love Buffy, the same people will say He's a vampire anomaly, and he was different there wasn't really a change between souled spike and unsouled spike, so I think the same of this situation, where as other choose to see this as totally out of character, I think they needed to define Spike more between the 2 versions of himself.

So on the one hand I could see that being a changer of my view of Spuffy, but on the other I preferred Spike's character before S5 so Im not sure.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I have my own unique way of interpreting things. Spike is his own person. He's not a character to me, most of the time. The things he does make sense. The AR did not make sense. It was a plot device. IMO it was stupid and unrealistic. So I blame the writers. Spike didn't actually DO that, the writers did. I know, it makes no sense. But that's how my brain works!

 

[Flannen]

So Angelus gets a pass for what was only implied, but almost certainly, knowing his character, took place, while Spike can never be forgiven by the fans for what he attempted once, but didn't succeed. Luckily Buffy was more understanding than the fans, or Season 7 would have had to be completely rewritten. Maybe the First could have triggered Andrew.

Where exactly did I say that Angelus gets a free pass? I didn't. What I said was not an attack on you're argument about Angelus. It was simply offering up a reason as to why not everyone sees them as being the same thing. It is much more difficult to reconcile positive feelings towards something that is physically shown as opposed to implied or suggested as it is with Angelus. Reading into what dialogue might say about his character does not make what Spike attempted to do any easier to swallow. And, honestly, 'Angelus did it too' is really not a good argument to make what Spike did sound better.

As has been pointed out, this is an extremely sensitive issue and some people, soul or no soul, do not wish to accept ANY excuse for what Spike tried to do. Nor would they accept it if it was in fact Angelus in his place. This is a fictional world, where having a soul or not can act as some kind of 'justification' (for want of a better word) for disgusting actions but with an issue as fragile as this, it's not always so easy to separate them from its affects in the real world.

So, don't take someone not being able to deal with the issues or the consequences of this as an attack on Spike, or any Spike fans. We all deal with these sensitive issues in different ways.

But as for the opening question and whether it would change the way I feel about Spike? Probably not that much. It was more about his whole journey that turned me off him, as opposed to the individual incidences that made up that journey. I have a bigger issue with 'Seeing Red' as a whole and the messages that episode actually conveyed than the characters involved.

 

[white avenger]

I think they needed to define Spike more between the 2 versions of himself.

I most definitely agree with this. As I have said before, if we had had a "Spike-us" pre-soul and "Spike" post soul, defining the character would be much easier. Unfortunately, there had been too much time and effort spent in developing the character of Spike as he evolved from monster to hero to Champion to allow for as drastic a change as there had been with Angelus/Angel. Spike had too many fans to simply reboot him between seasons like a Buffyverse version of Brosnan/Craig James Bond. In this one thing, if in no other, Angel has gotten a free ride that Spike has never had. Angel has, in effect, an evil twin brother who did a bunch of really bad things. Spike has always been Spike except for a few weeks in Season 7, then Buffy herself demanded the "old Spike, the Spike that tried to kill me when we first met," back. In a similar circumstance, she would never want Angelus to return.

 

[Wesley]

Flannen agrees: Unfortunately this is all implied and suggested. If Angel/us had been seen doing this in the same way as Spike did then it would be the same. But it's easier to be less affected by what is implied and not shown.

So Angelus gets a pass for what was only implied, but almost certainly, knowing his character, took place, while Spike can never be forgiven by the fans for what he attempted once, but didn't succeed. Luckily Buffy was more understanding than the fans, or Season 7 would have had to be completely rewritten. Maybe the First could have triggered Andrew.

white avenger agrees: I was basing my opinion of the two vampires on what we actually saw on screen, not what others reported about them, which is also why I have doubts about the "railroad spike through the head" origin of Spike's name.

Seems you pick/choose when and where to apply hearsay in your arguments, WA!

It's hard to compare Angel/Angelus and Spike/Spike because of the whole massive trauma of his guilt caused Angels personality to split situation. Angel ultimately at the end of the day is not the same 'person' that committed those terrible acts, at least not the same personality. There is a difference.


Would removing 'Seeing Red' change my opinion of Spike or Spuffy? I would say no... because I'm not sure that it changes my view one way or the other in regards to either Buffy or Spike.

I think Buffy is a bad girlfriend and was emotionally abusive to Spike much of S6. This of course doesn't excuse Spikes terrible actions. However I didn't think that Spike was a noble lover or powerful force of good in S6, no he was as was said 'a sociopath following the rules in prison to his own benefit.' Buffy was alternatively having sex with and then denying a sociopath, that's not a good plan.... you're playing with gasoline around an open flame.

Ultimately rape is a terrible thing and is never condonable, but keep in mind that Spike was a Wild Animal. You may be able to pet, and keep it, and train it, but someday it will attack you, because it's wild, that's what it does. It was his nature, like when the bengal tiger attacked Roy of Siegfried and Roy. You can't play with wild animals without eventually one of them trying to bite your face off.

Because people like 'bad boys' and Spike is very good looking and charming and seemed to care sometimes, many people began to think that he was a good match for Buffy and that they were in love and should be together. Will he was all those thing, but he was also a blood thirsty murderer. That's what people forget.

So... no it wouldn't change my mind about him or them.

 

[Professor Walsh]

I just don't understand why fans can't forgive Spike for what he did without a soul, yet they have no trouble forgiving Angel for what he did as Angelus. Angelus did some awful things, but those don't ruin his character for me at all. Just like Spike's AR doesn't make me feel less for him. I just don't get it! I don't mean to single you out here NIX, but why does the AR make you like Spike less because of it? What about Angel? Do you like Angel less because his alter-ego killed Jenny? Somehow I think not.

I haven't read the whole thread. And I don't dislike Spike. I'll brave an answer anyway, though. To me, the imagery of the attempted rape brought the callousness of the vampire much closer than any of Angelus avantgardist antics ever did. Like Tara's death by a stray bullet, rape is something I can relate to. It brought the evil too close for comfort.

 

[white avenger]

Originally Posted by white avenger View Post
white avenger agrees: I was basing my opinion of the two vampires on what we actually saw on screen, not what others reported about them, which is also why I have doubts about the "railroad spike through the head" origin of Spike's name.

Seems you pick/choose when and where to apply hearsay in your arguments, WA!

The key words in my comment were "not what others reported about them." Spike never said that he stuck railroad spikes in people's heads, Giles did, and in the same statement said that Spike was "not quite 200," though actually Spike was considerably younger than that. Obviously, the Watchers' Chronicles had the story wrong.

Angelus himself said that he "repeated" on Holtz's wife, and he is shown on screen forcing himself on a serving girl. If we choose to discount those two scenes as meaning rape, then we have to also discount Spike's attack on Buffy as being attempted rape because he kept his fly buttoned.

 

[Flannen]

The key words in my comment were "not what others reported about them." Spike never said that he stuck railroad spikes in people's heads, Giles did, and in the same statement said that Spike was "not quite 200," though actually Spike was considerably younger than that. Obviously, the Watchers' Chronicles had the story wrong.

Angelus himself said that he "repeated" on Holtz's wife, and he is shown on screen forcing himself on a serving girl. If we choose to discount those two scenes as meaning rape, then we have to also discount Spike's attack on Buffy as being attempted rape because he kept his fly buttoned.

You know how ridiculous that sounds? But if that's your story, then stick to it. All it is doing is belittling what happened on screen. Those two things about Angelus and what Spike did are not the same. They weren't shown in the same way. This brings me back to my original point, that due to the nature of the way in which those two things were presented, only one of them tends to affect people in the way that it does hence the change in feelings towards Spike.

And, I'm sorry, but considering the nature of what is being discussed here that last comment was rather tactless.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I most definitely agree with this. As I have said before, if we had had a "Spike-us" pre-soul and "Spike" post soul, defining the character would be much easier. Unfortunately, there had been too much time and effort spent in developing the character of Spike as he evolved from monster to hero to Champion to allow for as drastic a change as there had been with Angelus/Angel. Spike had too many fans to simply reboot him between seasons like a Buffyverse version of Brosnan/Craig James Bond. In this one thing, if in no other, Angel has gotten a free ride that Spike has never had. Angel has, in effect, an evil twin brother who did a bunch of really bad things. Spike has always been Spike except for a few weeks in Season 7, then Buffy herself demanded the "old Spike, the Spike that tried to kill me when we first met," back. In a similar circumstance, she would never want Angelus to return.

So basically you want us to seperate what we saw on screen as part of the story and what the writers could or couldn't do. Well thats not possible if they wanted to reboot Spike they could have, they didn't so it means the Spike that tried to Rape Buffy and the one after he gets his soul back are pretty much the same thing.

But you are right on her not wanting Angelus back, but when Angel got his soul he didn't become a hollow shallow cardboard cut out of what he was before. Spike did, he was seriously watered down, all we got of the old Spike was 1 scene where he beat up a demon and then back to wade in his shallow waters.

Originally Posted by white avenger View Post
white avenger agrees: I was basing my opinion of the two vampires on what we actually saw on screen, not what others reported about them, which is also why I have doubts about the "railroad spike through the head" origin of Spike's name.

The key words in my comment were "not what others reported about them." Spike never said that he stuck railroad spikes in people's heads, Giles did, and in the same statement said that Spike was "not quite 200," though actually Spike was considerably younger than that. Obviously, the Watchers' Chronicles had the story wrong.

Angelus himself said that he "repeated" on Holtz's wife, and he is shown on screen forcing himself on a serving girl. If we choose to discount those two scenes as meaning rape, then we have to also discount Spike's attack on Buffy as being attempted rape because he kept his fly buttoned.

since when does repeated mean rape (I'm actually asking this, I don't mean it in a rhetorical way to get my point across) but does repeated mean rape in another way that Im not aware of, you keep ""ing it and it looks like it means rape?

Either way there is a huge difference between something being hinted at and actually seeing something. Thats just part of life, seeing something makes it more real.

 

[white avenger]

This brings me back to my original point, that due to the nature of the way in which those two things were presented, only one of them tends to affect people in the way that it does hence the change in feelings towards Spike.

.

Which is what I said in the first place. For whatever reason, Angel gets a free ride on whatever Angelus did, but post soul Spike is still judged for and responsible for, whatever pre soul Spike did.

And I agree, my comment about Spike's fly might have been tactless, but it made my point.

And that IS my opinion, and I will keep it.

This discussion started with Nix's statement,

Originally Posted by Nix View Post

If Joss had made Angelus step up and try to rape someone I would have lost the same amount of feelings towards him as I did for Spike.

to which I was pointing out that Joss did, in fact show Angelus as a rapist, even if the actual act took place off screen.

And that's my interpretation of Joss' story. If you choose not to believe it, or to interpret it some other way, then that's your right.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Kelsey disagrees: We got a fully humanized Spike, not a watered-down version.

No we didn't, we got watered down Spike. Angel had a soul and was able to keep fighting.

Gunn, Xander, Wesley, all fully human but would still fight. Spike got a soul and didn't become humanized he became watered down, which is exactly why Buffy asked of him what she did.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Which is what I said in the first place. For whatever reason, Angel gets a free ride on whatever Angelus did, but post soul Spike is still judged for and responsible for, whatever pre soul Spike did.

And I agree, my comment about Spike's fly might have been tactless, but it made my point.

And that IS my opinion, and I will keep it.

This discussion started with Nix's statement,

Originally Posted by Nix View Post

If Joss had made Angelus step up and try to rape someone I would have lost the same amount of feelings towards him as I did for Spike.

to which I was pointing out that Joss did, in fact show Angelus as a rapist, even if the actual act took place off screen.

And that's my interpretation of Joss' story. If you choose not to believe it, or to interpret it some other way, then that's your right.

In that case, in order to see Souled Spike and unSouled Spike as totally different we have to forget everything about his relationship with Buffy in Season 6, because that was a totally different person, you ok with that from now on then?

 

[white avenger]

In that case, in order to see Souled Spike and unSouled Spike as totally different we have to forget everything about his relationship with Buffy in Season 6, because that was a totally different person, you ok with that from now on then?

If we accept Angelus as being a different person from Angel, and therefore not accountable for what he did, then I have no problem with accepting the same standards as applying to Spike. Just as long as Buffy and Spike's relationship in Season 6 is compared with Buffy's relationship with Angelus in Season 2.

Now what sort of cleverly laid trap are you attempting to lead me into?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

If we accept Angelus as being a different person from Angel, and therefore not accountable for what he did, then I have no problem with accepting the same standards as applying to Spike. Just as long as Buffy and Spike's relationship in Season 6 is compared with Buffy's relationship with Angelus in Season 2.

Now what sort of cleverly laid trap are you attempting to lead me into?

Trap, what trap, I see no trap.

It's funny then, she never even kissed (that we saw on screen and can be 100% confirmed, without having to leave it to viewer discretion) souled Spike, just made out with the Evil him.

 

[Kelsey]

No we didn't, we got watered down Spike. Angel had a soul and was able to keep fighting.

Gunn, Xander, Wesley, all fully human but would still fight. Spike got a soul and didn't become humanized he became watered down, which is exactly why Buffy asked of him what she did.

No, we didn't, we got a humanized Spike. Angel spent 100 years eating rats and brooding in a pile of garbage before he turned into a hero. Spike didn't have that luxury, and it's biased and unfair to call him weak or watered-down when he was coping with the same dehabilitating guilt that Angel was, plus being the First's plaything. But he did get the fight in him back, and he did help Buffy save the world, just like Xander and just like Gunn and Wesley helped Angel.

And on a completely off-topic note, I always hated Buffy's "I want the Spike that's dangerous! The Spike that tried to kill me when we first met!" I understand the reason behind it; she needed a fighter and Spike needed to find that in himself again. But really, how dare she say that to a man who had gone to hell and back to completely change himself? I can only imagine how that made Spike feel. She didn't want anything to do with him when he was soulless, and now she turns around and says that soulled Spike isn't good enough either. And I know, Black Eye Guy, that you'll probably have lots of slightly sarcastic ways to disagree with me, but it frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

No, we didn't, we got a humanized Spike. Angel spent 100 years eating rats and brooding in a pile of garbage before he turned into a hero. Spike didn't have that luxury, and it's biased and unfair to call him weak or watered-down when he was coping with the same dehabilitating guilt that Angel was, plus being the First's plaything. But he did get the fight in him back, and he did help Buffy save the world, just like Xander and just like Gunn and Wesley helped Angel.

But the Angel that spent 100 years eating rats, was guilt ridden and didn't know what to do with himself.

As soon as Whistler showed him Buffy and told him he could help her fight he wanted to help her.

Spike got the soul felt guilt while in the basement and then got better but didn't wouldn't fight. He even ran away from that demon in the alley with Anya!

And not once was guilt a reason for something, or ever hinted at after the start of Season 7, it was all about him just being there and not doing anything.

And on a completely off-topic note, I always hated Buffy's "I want the Spike that's dangerous! The Spike that tried to kill me when we first met!" I understand the reason behind it; she needed a fighter and Spike needed to find that in himself again. But really, how dare she say that to a man who had gone to hell and back to completely change himself? I can only imagine how that made Spike feel. She didn't want anything to do with him when he was soulless, and now she turns around and says that soulled Spike isn't good enough either. And I know, Black Eye Guy, that you'll probably have lots of slightly sarcastic ways to disagree with me, but it frustrates the hell out of me.

I actually agree with you on that. That wasn't fair of her.
(But I'd just see that as further proof of her not loving him, but thats not what we're discussing here, so I wont go there)

 

[white avenger]

Trap, what trap, I see no trap.

It's funny then, she never even kissed (that we saw on screen and can be 100% confirmed, without having to leave it to viewer discretion) souled Spike, just made out with the Evil him.

No, but she never told Season 6 Spike that she loved him, either. And as to what we saw on screen and can be confirmed in Season 7, I can confirm that she DID tell Spike that she loved him, whether he believed it or not. And I consider Joss' statement to both Sarah and James to play it as though they loved each other in the hellmouth as confirmation that they did love each other. And I can confirm that Joss left what happened in the basement that final night up to my own imagination, and I just can't imagine Buffy and Spike spending the night playing checkers.

And I can confirm that Season 6 Spike tried to kill Buffy and her friends a whole lot fewer times that Season 2 Angelus did.

 

[Wesley]

The problem is people are trying to apply human morality to Spike. At the end of the day Spike was a wild animal, a sociopath, whatever metaphor you want to use. He can act very cuddly and friendly and be attractive and charming but at the core of his being he was an animal and to apply human morality to him is faulty to begin with.


When Angelus was locked behind a cage and couldn't reach out to grab anyone he was pleasant enough. Just making casual conversation and biting observations. Spike had a cage in his brain (the chip) keeping him locked up.

If you let a wild animal live in your house, eventually he's going to try to rip your face off, he can't help it, it's his nature. When I say this I am not 'blaming the victim' when it comes to Buffy let a murderous killer into her house and it bit her. That's gonna happen.

It's not that they all came to some kind of understanding in later seasons but at that time, it was just a wolf being a wolf.

 

[Lyri]

It should never be disregarded, but I don't think you can blame that on the fans as much as the writers. The AR was a cheap plot device, and they used it to suit their purposes. But beyond showing how guilty and horrified Spike felt about it, they didn't seem to want to address the issue again.

See, this right here is what I have a major problem with, people calling the AR a cheap plot device. That's like saying Tara's death was a cheap plot device to make Willow go dark, or Dawn being the key was a cheap plot device to kill Buffy. Everything those characters did was thoroughly thought out by Joss and Co. and they knew what they were doing. The AR WAS talked about again, just not directly, in 'Beneath You' and I think there was one other mention of it in S7.

Apologies if anyone else has addressed this, I didn't read the other posts. 😛