Eliminating "Seeing Red"

[white avenger]

See, this right here is what I have a major problem with, people calling the AR a cheap plot device. That's like saying Tara's death was a cheap plot device to make Willow go dark, or Dawn being the key was a cheap plot device to kill Buffy. Everything those characters did was thoroughly thought out by Joss and Co. and they knew what they were doing. The AR WAS talked about again, just not directly, in 'Beneath You' and I think there was one other mention of it in S7.

Apologies if anyone else has addressed this, I didn't read the other posts. 😛

I don't believe that the attempted rape was as much a "cheap plot device" as it was just plain laziness on the writers' part. Spike HAD to have some sort of catalyst powerful enough to make the decision to get his soul back, I would just have rather they had done something a bit more original. We already had Angel doing the "trying to atone for my sins" thing. Spike should have had a reason all his own.

 

[BuffyElevated]

It's hard for me to say. On one hand, rape is NEVER OK, and as someone who has been through it, it was painful to watch that scene. But on the other hand, my heart ached in a weird way for Spike 'cause he was driven insane by his want for Buffy and it was horrible to see the desperation in his eyes. It was a really weird scene for me and to this day I'm not really sure exactly how I feel about Spike for doing that, and about Buffy for letting him back into her life afterward.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

But the Angel that spent 100 years eating rats, was guilt ridden and didn't know what to do with himself.

As soon as Whistler showed him Buffy and told him he could help her fight he wanted to help her.

Spike got the soul felt guilt while in the basement and then got better but didn't wouldn't fight. He even ran away from that demon in the alley with Anya!

And not once was guilt a reason for something, or ever hinted at after the start of Season 7, it was all about him just being there and not doing anything.




I actually agree with you on that. That wasn't fair of her.
(But I'd just see that as further proof of her not loving him, but thats not what we're discussing here, so I wont go there)

Angel had 100+ YEARS to adjust before he found out Buffy needed him (supposedly; I still wonder about that!). Spike had a couple of weeks and was expected to toss off all the guilt and go into battle. It's not a fair comparison at all.

 

[Kelsey]

But the Angel that spent 100 years eating rats, was guilt ridden and didn't know what to do with himself.

As soon as Whistler showed him Buffy and told him he could help her fight he wanted to help her.

Spike got the soul felt guilt while in the basement and then got better but didn't wouldn't fight. He even ran away from that demon in the alley with Anya!

And not once was guilt a reason for something, or ever hinted at after the start of Season 7, it was all about him just being there and not doing anything.




I actually agree with you on that. That wasn't fair of her.
(But I'd just see that as further proof of her not loving him, but thats not what we're discussing here, so I wont go there)

That's still completely unfair. Spike was coping, and unfortunately he didn't have the time or the luxury to do it. But that does not make him weak, or whatever else you're accusing him of. If there's one thing I hate more than anything else, it's when people give Angel allowances that they don't give Spike. Regardless of whether or not Buffy was able to give Angel purpose, he spent 100 years not helping anyone. And Spike only took a few months to get back into the swing of things, and if you recall, he saved the world.

As for you agreeing with me... I'm kinda shocked. And I'll wisely ignore your (incorrect) sentence in parenthesis. =P

Just read the post about me calling the AR a cheap plot device, so I'll respond:

I'm not one of those people disregarding it, I swear. My argument is not, "I don't believe in it, so it didn't happen." But it was a cheap plot device n that they didn't use it well. I don't agree with their use of rape there at all, in any sense. I don't like that they used it to push Spike into getting his soul, I don't like that they made a helpless victim out of Buffy, and I don't like that they barely addressed it afterwards besides Spike feeling guilty in early S7. Also, on a most basic level, it sent a terrible message because Buffy essentially forgave her attacker. I know I've said this before and people have disagreed, but I still believe it. If you take away souls and everything else, she forgave someone who attempted to assault her. And it was sloppy writing on top of it all, because it was extremely forced and contrived. Buffy has been seriously wounded before and never lost her strength. The AR was a disservice to both characters and a shining example of poor writing.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Angel had 100+ YEARS to adjust before he found out Buffy needed him (supposedly; I still wonder about that!). Spike had a couple of weeks and was expected to toss off all the guilt and go into battle. It's not a fair comparison at all.

That's still completely unfair. Spike was coping, and unfortunately he didn't have the time or the luxury to do it. But that does not make him weak, or whatever else you're accusing him of. If there's one thing I hate more than anything else, it's when people give Angel allowances that they don't give Spike. Regardless of whether or not Buffy was able to give Angel purpose, he spent 100 years not helping anyone. And Spike only took a few months to get back into the swing of things, and if you recall, he saved the world.

As for you agreeing with me... I'm kinda shocked. And I'll wisely ignore your (incorrect) sentence in parenthesis. =P

But you can't compare Angel and Spikes bad phases, Angel was the first souled vampire (as far as we know) he didn't know what he was suposed to do, Spike did. And He adjusted and he got uncrazy and he started to become one of the group, we're never shown him showing any remorse or guilt over his victims (with the exceptions of his mummy issues)


As far as Im concerned Spike didn't have guilt and guilt wasn't holding him back, he said to Wood:

I don't give a piss about your mum. She was a slayer. I was a vampire. (Spike kicks Robin) That's the way the game is played.

Angel actually felt bad for what Angelus did, Spike was able to separate himself from the unsouled him, so how was it guilt that was stopping him. You guys are taking what Angel felt and applying that to Spike, when he didn't show that.

 

[Kelsey]

But you can't compare Angel and Spikes bad phases, Angel was the first souled vampire (as far as we know) he didn't know what he was suposed to do, Spike did. And He adjusted and he got uncrazy and he started to become one of the group, we're never shown him showing any remorse or guilt over his victims (with the exceptions of his mummy issues)


As far as Im concerned Spike didn't have guilt and guilt wasn't holding him back, he said to Wood:



Angel actually felt bad for what Angelus did, Spike was able to separate himself from the unsouled him, so how was it guilt that was stopping him. You guys are taking what Angel felt and applying that to Spike, when he didn't show that.

Wow. Usually I can try to understand where people are coming from even when they disagree with me, but I'm just not comprehending your points at all. They all show such an extreme bias towards Spike.

I could cite a hundred examples in S7 where Spike felt guilty and ashamed, but I have a feeling you'll just find a way around them like you've been doing so far. And it's actually the complete opposite; Angel separated himself from Angelus. He made a new name, for God's sake. Spike has always been considered an ongoing character, with a bridge between soulled and unsoulled. Angel has always had Angelus to fall back on and blame.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Wow. Usually I can try to understand where people are coming from even when they disagree with me, but I'm just not comprehending your points at all. They all show such an extreme bias towards Spike.

I could cite a hundred examples in S7 where Spike felt guilty and ashamed, but I have a feeling you'll just find a way around them like you've been doing so far. And it's actually the complete opposite; Angel separated himself from Angelus. He made a new name, for God's sake. Spike has always been considered an ongoing character, with a bridge between soulled and unsoulled. Angel has always had Angelus to fall back on and blame.

I'd love for you to point out some examples of where Spike felt guilt for one of the many people he killed, after he stopped being crazy.

How can you not see where I'm coming from, the show didn't point us towards a guilt ridden Spike, your just jumping to the conclusion. Another example: When the first came to Angel he showed him people he'd killed, it didn't do that to Spike becasue that wasn't Spikes thing, he wasn't getting the guilt.

For your last point, you do realize that you just agreed with me WA was saying Angel gets a free pass, but Spike doesn't. We said Spike doesn't get a free pass because there isn't that much of a difference between unsouled Spike and Souled Spike, if there wasn't a bridged gap between souled/unsouled it would make a world of difference.

And it's not that Angel has an excuse, he actually has a completely separate evil version of him, Spike had pretty much the same evil version of him.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Ok guys, as for Angelus, in Angel S4 he threatened to rape Fred to death, and by his tone he would have no problem doing so, which suggests that he's raped people before.

As for Spike... I dunno, some very important things happened in that (badly written) episode, but the AR scene was just horrible, Spike was acting crazy , although I guess I understand it. Still, rape is unexcusable, and nobody in any case EVER deserves to be raped, attempted or not...

 

[white avenger]

Angel had 100+ YEARS to adjust before he found out Buffy needed him (supposedly; I still wonder about that!). Spike had a couple of weeks and was expected to toss off all the guilt and go into battle. It's not a fair comparison at all.

Spike was able to adjust so quickly because of the encouragement and support that Buffy gave him within weeks of gaining his soul.

Angel was a brooding recluse for over a century because of the rejection and ridicule from Darla.

Both men owe their redemption to the same woman, Angel was just unlucky in that it took him 100 years to find her. She was there for Spike almost immediately.

 

[Kelsey]

I'd love for you to point out some examples of where Spike felt guilt for one of the many people he killed, after he stopped being crazy.

How can you not see where I'm coming from, the show didn't point us towards a guilt ridden Spike, your just jumping to the conclusion. Another example: When the first came to Angel he showed him people he'd killed, it didn't do that to Spike becasue that wasn't Spikes thing, he wasn't getting the guilt.

For your last point, you do realize that you just agreed with me WA was saying Angel gets a free pass, but Spike doesn't. We said Spike doesn't get a free pass because there isn't that much of a difference between unsouled Spike and Souled Spike, if there wasn't a bridged gap between souled/unsouled it would make a world of difference.

And it's not that Angel has an excuse, he actually has a completely separate evil version of him, Spike had pretty much the same evil version of him.

I didn't necessarily agree with you; I pointed out what happens. Spike is viewed as one consistent character, and Angel and Angelus are viewed as two separate ones. Personally, I want it to be that way, because I loved Spike pre-soul and don't want to disregard everything before S7. But you said Spike "separates himself" which rang completely untrue to me. If anyone separates himself, it's Angel.


The show definitely showed a regretful Spike. He was completely guilt-ridden for what he did, as his babbling and insanity attests to. Yes, that was also The First, but what was The First doing? Torturing him with images of Buffy and Drusilla, which affected him because of his soul. There's also the fact that he said he "hates himself" and that he didn't relish in the violence anymore. He was also willing to let Buffy kill him when he was hurting people. Sorry, but to say they never showed a guilty Spike is to say that you viewed the show through a completely anti-Spike lense. He didn't roll around in the dirt moaning about what he did, but there were definite, concrete instances of guilt. As for jumping to conclusions, to quote Buffy, "I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

And besides, "the same evil version of himself"? So was sacrificing himself for the world evil?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I didn't necessarily agree with you; I pointed out what happens. Spike is viewed as one consistent character, and Angel and Angelus are viewed as two separate ones. Personally, I want it to be that way, because I loved Spike pre-soul and don't want to disregard everything before S7. But you said Spike "separates himself" which rang completely untrue to me. If anyone separates himself, it's Angel.

But that's exactly what he does, he tells wood he was a vampire his mom was a slayer and thats just how it worked. How can you tell me he felt guilt for the people he killed when he can view it like that, he has to have separated himself.

And I know Spike was consistent, but thats what makes the attempted rape in this episode a bigger deal, because, you can't just say when it comes to the rape they can be separated out but everything else we have to look at another way (I'm not saying you specifically, but that was what was coming across in the thread)

The show definitely showed a regretful Spike. He was completely guilt-ridden for what he did, as his babbling and insanity attests to. Yes, that was also The First, but what was The First doing? Torturing him with images of Buffy and Drusilla, which affected him because of his soul. There's also the fact that he said he "hates himself" and that he didn't relish in the violence anymore. He was also willing to let Buffy kill him when he was hurting people. Sorry, but to say they never showed a guilty Spike is to say that you viewed the show through a completely anti-Spike lense. He didn't roll around in the dirt moaning about what he did, but there were definite, concrete instances of guilt. As for jumping to conclusions, to quote Buffy, "I took a step and there conclusions were."

I agreed that when Spike first came back Spike was a guilt ridden mess, but as WA said with Buffy's help he got better, by the time he's running away from demons with Anya all that guilt stuff isn't an issue, there's no mention of it. Which was the point I was making that it just came across as a more watered down version of Spike, Angel had the same thing but was still willing to fight.

And besides, "the same evil version of himself"? So was sacrificing himself for the world evil?

Of course not, Im not really sure where this came from as I'm for the separation of pre and post soul Spike, your the one who said you like the continuation of the character from pre soul to post soul, so how to you explain that with the attempted rape and then sacrificing himself to save the world?

 

[white avenger]

Every time that a discussion about Spike and his relationship with Buffy prior to Season 7, or just Spike in general, this episode comes up. So here's the question. If that episode had never happened, would it make a difference in how you feel about Spike? (This is about Spike as a character, not as Buffy's romantic interest)

Nobody here is any more guilty than I am of losing track of the topic (I'm probably the worst, in fact) but just in case someone might want to go back to the original question...

 

[frankie]

Personally if it was removed from continuity it would not change my opinion of Spike. I've mentioned before that I had a problem with how demons and vamps were humanized as the show progressed. I always referred back to season 1
Giles: You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him.
That's how I always seen the vamps on the show. No matter how friendly, funny, quirky or cool they might be. They were demons. I liked Spike and Harmony, but I wouldn't trust them for a second. Spike's attempted rape was horrible to watch, but it did not surprise me. It didn't effect my views of him, I always thought he was bad, and the chip was just holding him back. If he could get it removed, he would have killed again.
For me a soul is the thing that changes what a character is. It gives them the potential for good. Season 7 Spike was a hero, I don't judge him on his past as Spike. That was not William, just the demon inside him.

 

[Kelsey]

I.... just typed up a reply to you, Black Eye Guy (despite my karma post, hah), and lost every single bit of it because my internet failed. I'm so mad I want to throw my computer across the room. Now I think I'll just lay the topic to rest because I don't have the patience to write it again. UGH.

 

[Tranquillity]

But the Angel that spent 100 years eating rats, was guilt ridden and didn't know what to do with himself.

As soon as Whistler showed him Buffy and told him he could help her fight he wanted to help her.

Spike got the soul felt guilt while in the basement and then got better but didn't wouldn't fight. He even ran away from that demon in the alley with Anya!

And not once was guilt a reason for something, or ever hinted at after the start of Season 7, it was all about him just being there and not doing anything.

But Angle did know there was more that he could be doing than brooding under the burden of infinite guilt! What about his mission in WWII (Why we fight)? What about his little brush with helping the helpless in the 50s (Are you now or have you ever been?)? Surely these experiences would have made Angel see that there was more that he could be doing, but they don’t. He goes right back to brooding and isn’t spurred to act until he sees Buffy. Now don’t get me wrong – I’m not begrudging Angel his period of adjustment, but I do think that it’s a tad unfair to condemn Spike for taking a little time after he got his soul back and allowing Angel 100 years of grace.

And I think there is plenty of evidence that Spike was feeling very guilty after the soul was restored – He said all his victims voices were in his head, he said he wasn’t keen to add to the body count, he said he wasn’t really feeling the thrill of the fight anymore –all products of his guilt. But the biggest is his own self-loathing and the fact that he cannot accept that anyone, least of all Buffy, could possibly love him.

But to the topic of this thread – Did the AR change my feelings for Spike? Well no. I hate the AR, I invariably look away from the screen every time I get to that part but I would never remove it from the show. Without it I really don’t think they could have justified Spike choosing to go and get his soul. And the choice is the important part. Spike had to do something completely dreadful and completely dreadful to Buffy, to force him make that connection between his human side and his vampire side. To make him see that he could proclaim himself ‘good’ until he was blue in the face but it wouldn’t make it so. That he could never be the kind of man he wanted to be unless he reconciled the human with the vampire and the only way to do this in the Buffyverse is via a soul. So no, the AR didn’t change my feelings for Spike – I loved him before and I loved him afterwards, probably even more – but that was not because of the AR, but because of the choices and decisions he made after the AR.

RE: Angel/Angelus and Spike/Spikeus

I’m glad that Spike is not a divided character in the sense that Angel/Angelus is. For me, it makes Spike more rounded, more mature as a character. He’s capable of good and bad and doesn’t get any easy outs. He did what he did in the past and If he does anything ‘bad’ or ‘evil’ in the future, it would be because he chooses to do it and not because he has this unreconciled part of him that he can blame for his actions. Not that I think that Spike is going to suddenly go bad anytime soon… I suppose what I’m trying to say is that with Spike, you get Spike and all his baggage and all his bad vampire crap and all his contradictions and all the good things he’s done in one messy, confused package and you have to deal with it all , whereas with Angel you slice and dice him, put part of him in column A and part of him column B and he ends up being diminished because he never seems to learn anything as a character – he repeats the same mistakes over and over and he’s got this unresolved question mark over him which I have to wonder is not the reason for certain developments in the comic which I won’t go into here.

 

[Kelsey]

I'm glad that Spike is not a divided character in the sense that Angel/Angelus is. For me, it makes Spike more rounded, more mature as a character. He's capable of good and bad and doesn't get any easy outs. He did what he did in the past and If he does anything "˜bad' or "˜evil' in the future, it would be because he chooses to do it and not because he has this unreconciled part of him that he can blame for his actions. Not that I think that Spike is going to suddenly go bad anytime soon"¦ I suppose what I'm trying to say is that with Spike, you get Spike and all his baggage and all his bad vampire crap and all his contradictions and all the good things he's done in one messy, confused package and you have to deal with it all , whereas with Angel you slice and dice him, put part of him in column A and part of him column B and he ends up being diminished because he never seems to learn anything as a character "“ he repeats the same mistakes over and over and he's got this unresolved question mark over him which I have to wonder is not the reason for certain developments in the comic which I won't go into here.

I know I already gave you karma, but this was just such a great paragraph! I agree, and I think that's why I connected so much more to Spike than I ever did with Angel.

 

[Kana]

As for Black Eye Guy's point about Spike's not relishing the kill...you're right it's not about guilt in general and he does briefly disassociate himself from his demon self. Not in terms of responsibility but he deliberately changes his personality because he believes Buffy would want that, that's why he doesn't go all out when fighting because he wants to seperate himself from the soulless Spike who used to love that. When Buffy tells him she wants the old Spike back, he obliges, again, because it's what Buffy wants.

Yes I don't think it's fair to compare Angel and Spike's journey because their circumstances and personalities are very different.

Just on Angel though he does explain why he didn't help people. It wasn't all guilt, it was partly cynicism.

Angel: (smiles) You and me, Faith, (straightens up) we're a lot alike. Time was, I thought humans existed just to hurt each other. (sits next to her) But then I came here. And I found out that there are other types of people. People who genuinely wanted to do right. (looks at her) And they make mistakes. And they fall down. You know, but they keep caring.

I'm not excusing or villfying Angel but I actually like the fact that helping people wasn't an automatic reflex nor did he not help people because he was simply a jerk, brooding or being lazy.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

SR never changed my opinion of Spike, i always found him interesting. Basically a (chipped unsouled) vampire tried rape, not that surprising tbh. I dont see why SR would change anyones opinion on Spike considering how much he loved to kill in s2/3 and talked about killing in s4 when the chip was new and he had hope he'd get it out. Its not like he was a nice guy that suddenly attempted rape.

 

[white avenger]

he tells wood he was a vampire his mom was a slayer and thats just how it worked. How can you tell me he felt guilt for the people he killed when he can view it like that, he has to have separated himself.

After the initial shock of receiving his soul, the thing that Spike seemed to regret the most was the attempted rape, or at least that's the way it appeared in the chapel when Buffy finally found out about his soul. The first time that he actually admitted to feeling much in the way of guilt over the countless lives that he had taken was the next year on Angel's show in "Damaged." During all of the time that the First Evil was playing with head, it never appeared as one of his victims, only people who he had associated with in some way. I really think that, at the time that Spike told Wood that about his mother, he had rationalized to himself that he had been a predator and humans had been his natural prey. Just as the lion doesn't feel guilt about killing the gazelle, Spike didn't feel any real guilt about the lives that he had taken. It wasn't until he was actually confronted with the tangible memory of the two Slayers who he had killed via Dana's channeling Nikki Wood and the Chinese Slayer that he realized that, rather than being any sort of "game," what he had been doing had been murder.

(And I'm not sure whether that supports your argument, mine, neither, or both, but it's just something that occurred to me, it's just something that I remembered very late last night)

 

[ubi4soft]

Not quite. In Sleeper, when Buffy was questioning him if he killed a girl previous night, Spike said "You honestly think I'd go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then"” (sighs, shakes head) Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it. If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy."

And that was way before the Damage episode (don't know why people forget to mention it)

In Lessons was that morphing Warren, Glory, Adam, The Mayor, Drusilla, The Master, Buffy taunting him. After that, The First settled to appear to/control Spike with what he discovered to be the most important persons in his life: Buffy, Drusilla and his mother (the song as the trigger).