Eliminating "Seeing Red"

[Kana]

I really think that, at the time that Spike told Wood that about his mother, he had rationalized to himself that he had been a predator and humans had been his natural prey. Just as the lion doesn't feel guilt about killing the gazelle, Spike didn't feel any real guilt about the lives that he had taken. It wasn't until he was actually confronted with the tangible memory of the two Slayers who he had killed via Dana's channeling Nikki Wood and the Chinese Slayer that he realized that, rather than being any sort of "game," what he had been doing had been murder.

To Spike's credit, he did acknowledge at the end of LMPTM that Nikki's life meant more than the kill.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I don't think his NOT feeling guilt about the slayers he killed means he had no guilt about other people he killed. Like he said, they were slayers. They knew the game. He could still have guilt over defenseless people he'd killed, even if he let himself off the hook for the slayers.

 

[Kana]

I don't think his NOT feeling guilt about the slayers he killed means he had no guilt about other people he killed. Like he said, they were slayers. They knew the game. He could still have guilt over defenseless people he'd killed, even if he let himself off the hook for the slayers.

As I always say I'm very 'meh' when it comes to judging soulless vampires by human standards but I don't think Spike even lets himself off the hook with Slayers. He recognised with a soul that even though for example Nikki was a Slayer, she was still a person who more than just a target for his 'game'. He acknowledged this and that is why he gave Wood 'a pass'.

 

[GrrArghx]

It didn't affect my feelings on Spike. I thought it was a pretty bad thing to do but he was hurt and confused and quite frankly it didn't surprise me that a soulless vampire who just got dumped would do something like that. Remember when Dru dumped him? lol He was whiny for a bit and then decided to go torture her to make her love him again 😛

Anyway, it is clear that he felt remorse for it - he went and got a SOUL after that. That's pretty big of him to do.

That doesn't mean I condone it but really it didn't make me love him any less. He made a mistake and he's going to live with the guilt for the rest of his life along with every other mistake he's made.

 

[Kelsey]

I give Spike a little more credit than changing his personality and becoming less violent only because of Buffy. I really think he felt guilty, which affected him and made him want to dissociate from the demon he used to be, and not just because that's what Buffy "wanted." The problem is, the show didn't have a lot of time to dwell on Spike's guilt, since there were so many other things to wrap up. Also, Spike wasn't really one to dwell anyway. Yes, he felt guilty, but it was the kind of guilt that he shouldered and moved on with. He wasn't like Angel in the sense that he wanted to repent; he just took the burden and kept on trucking.

I also give him more credit than getting his soul just to be the kind of man Buffy could love. I think that's a big part of it, but I think he also wanted to make himself a better man. He always believed that he'd never hurt Buffy, and when he saw he was capable of it, I don't think he could bare it. I think he viewed his love for her as what made him a good guy, or at least not a bad one; he loved the Slayer and dedicated himself to her. But when he saw he could hurt her, even HE was shocked by it, and it made him want to change.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

No we didn't, we got watered down Spike. Angel had a soul and was able to keep fighting.

Gunn, Xander, Wesley, all fully human but would still fight. Spike got a soul and didn't become humanized he became watered down, which is exactly why Buffy asked of him what she did.

OK, I've attempted to refrain from posting in this thread but come on! Are you insinuating that after Spike got his soul he was no longer able to/willing to fight? How do you back that up?

Angel spent a hundred years wallowing the gutters eating rats feeling sorry for himself! Adversely, Spike picked himself up and fought for Buffy. He sacrificed himself to win her war.

*sigh* All this discussion has become is just yet another Spike Vs. Angel debate.

---------- Post added at 09:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

Trap, what trap, I see no trap.

It's funny then, she never even kissed (that we saw on screen and can be 100% confirmed, without having to leave it to viewer discretion) souled Spike, just made out with the Evil him.

This isn't a 'shipper war!

What does this even have to do with eliminating 'Seeing Red'?

If there's one thing I hate more than anything else, it's when people give Angel allowances that they don't give Spike.

This is the problem in a nutshell, and it drives me insane, too. Angelus raped Holtz's wife. Anyone who wants to disregard that blatant insinuation is in my opinion, simply choosing to ignore the facts. So, Angelus WAS a rapist and pre-soul Spike was an attempted rapist. Yep, no denying that.

Holtz: My god. ..... your hands that held down my beloved Caroline as she was violated and murdered?

Can you honestly tell me that does not imply rape?

BUT if fans are going to make allowances for Angelus they sure as hell should make allowances for pre-soul Spike. Otherwise, it's not fair.

 

[ubi4soft]

Joan it's not that simple. The AR was brutally filmed and showed us, the Angelus were only talked about. It's about the impact of actually seeing what was happening and I understand why people could feel differently about it.

Because I saw first Hugo Weaving as Agent Smith couldn't care for the Elrond dude.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

?i dunno, to me it was totally implyed Spike and Angelus were rapists presoul, dont really matter if we seen it or not. Do people really make allowances for Angel and not Spike?

 

[white avenger]

?i dunno, to me it was totally implyed Spike and Angelus were rapists presoul, dont really matter if we seen it or not. Do people really make allowances for Angel and not Spike?

Yes, some people really do. But it's only fair to say that there are probably just about as many of us that would be willing to overlook something that Spike did wrong and condemn Angel for doing the exact same thing. That's assuming that Spike ever does do something wrong.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

I'm just wondering, i've only read 4 issues of After the fall. But did Gunn do anything questionable as a vampire? I remember in School Hard Spike breaks a guys neck, and another vamp is standing by looking quite shocked at this. Is it just me or were Spike and Angel just sicko's? Like more evil than most vamps? I cant remember any other vamps raping or even killing just for fun!

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that it's as much Spike and Angel being more evil than any other vampire as it is that we simply know more about them. All of the other vampires on either show fall into one of two categories: the fledgelings, fresh out of the grave, who Buffy and her team dust almost immediately, or the more mature and experienced vampires, who, once more, are dusted within a single episode. Aside from the Master and a few of his minions, almost no other vampires last beyond the end credits, The only exceptions that I can think of are Mr Sweet, Darla, Dru, and Harmony.

Spike and Angelus appear to be more evil simply because we have seen them so much longer than the others and know so much more about them.

 

[Washburne]

I haven't read much of the thread so maybe what I say will be totally pointless. But if we're just seeing to Spike's part of Seeing red (I'd concentrate on something else if I had the chance as you might imagine.😉) it would have changed how I feel about Spuffy but not about Spike. Sounds weird? Well both Spike and Angel have done terrible, terrible things in their past or call it unsouled lives if you will. Either you need to forgive both as they try to redem themselves or none of them. So even if it's a horrible thing it hasn't affected how I feel about Spike much at all if anything. Which I thought it would. At that time I saw him more as a baddie forced to give up his old lifestyle and doing good things to impress a girl. In time he slowly changed but that's how it all started and the change he finally did is not a place he'd reached if he never got the chip.

But soul or no soul a rape/rape attemt destroys things when it comes to relationships for me as it does with other abuse as well. But that's a different discussion. Lets just say that it's a really touchy subject for me. But it probably "helps" that I never were the biggest Spuffy fan, but neither a Spuffy hater. But I do like the turn their relationship takes in season 7. But to be clear had Angelus tried to rape Buffy in season 2 it sure had changed how I feel about Bangel. But what makes Spike's attempt so bad is that people go on about how good he was at this point without a soul. But as soon as he did something bad they often blame it on being soulless easily enough. Like an "easy" escape and it just feels wrong to me. The important bit is "to me". I don't demand that everyone must feel the same way. It's just how I feel. But he took it the right way and made a very difficult change to make sure it never happens again. And props for that.

Angel spent a hundred years wallowing the gutters eating rats feeling sorry for himself! Adversely, Spike picked himself up and fought for Buffy. He sacrificed himself to win her war.

Angel lost his soul not wanting it gone and had to fight all his demons himself while Spike had already started his journey, willingly got his soul back and had the women he loved supporting him all the way. No difference it all.

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 AM ----------

Spike and Angelus appear to be more evil simply because we have seen them so much longer than the others and know so much more about them.

We as an audience know more about them yes. But in history (within the show) it's a bit different right? Don't remember the quotes but the times Giles have told the gang about both Angelus and Spike it's not like he described them as your average vampire. And I'm sure they aren't the only ones managing to become a few hundred years.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Spike didn't have the woman he loved supporting him all the way. Some time passed (not sure how much but a few months I think) before Buffy even knew he was back in SunnyD. Then he spent a good deal of time hiding out in the basement of the school before she sent him to Xander's, and it wasn't til further into the season than that that she really started being supportive instead of just trying to keep him out of trouble.

 

[white avenger]

Some time passed (not sure how much but a few months I think) before Buffy even knew he was back in SunnyD.

Even at that, though, a few months can hardly compare to a century basically alone and rejected the way Angel was. It does bring up the question, though, of just how Spike, in the condition he was in, managed to get back halfway around the world on his own.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Even at that, though, a few months can hardly compare to a century basically alone and rejected the way Angel was. It does bring up the question, though, of just how Spike, in the condition he was in, managed to get back halfway around the world on his own.

No, it doesn't compare, but it's also not the same as instant complete support from Buffy. I do wonder how he got back. It'd be good to know.

 

[white avenger]

. I do wonder how he got back. It'd be good to know.

One possibility would be that the First Evil had its minions get him back, considering how integral Spike was to its plans to eliminate the Slayer line. What better way to take Buffy out than to use someone she knew and more or less still trusted and cared about, despite everything that had happened between them

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I don't think that it's as much Spike and Angel being more evil than any other vampire as it is that we simply know more about them. All of the other vampires on either show fall into one of two categories: the fledgelings, fresh out of the grave, who Buffy and her team dust almost immediately, or the more mature and experienced vampires, who, once more, are dusted within a single episode. Aside from the Master and a few of his minions, almost no other vampires last beyond the end credits, The only exceptions that I can think of are Mr Sweet, Darla, Dru, and Harmony.

Spike and Angelus appear to be more evil simply because we have seen them so much longer than the others and know so much more about them.

There's also Drusilla and Dracula.

I agree with your point. Also, I'd note that Darla was pretty evil - she obviously had no qualms with killing babies. That's pretty evil in my book.

---------- Post added at 09:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 AM ----------

One possibility would be that the First Evil had its minions get him back, considering how integral Spike was to its plans to eliminate the Slayer line. What better way to take Buffy out than to use someone she knew and more or less still trusted and cared about, despite everything that had happened between them

This totally makes sense. The First said it wasn't Spike's time yet. They had plans for him. I don't know if those plans involved sacrificing himself to destroy the Hellmouth, but eh.

The PTB have more power then the First, obviously. They're the one's who provided the amulet.

 

[LadyLavinia]

You want to know what I really disliked about the rape attempt in "Seeing Red"? It was another excuse for the show's writers and some of the critics to conveniently forget that other characters were guilty of rape or attempted rape. And that include Xander, who tried to rape Buffy in S1; Faith, who tried to rape Xander in S3; Buffy, who tried to rape Spike in S6's "Gone"; and Willow, who was guilty of not only two counts of psychic rape against Tara; but took advantage of the first act of psychic rape to have sex with Tara.

Yet, many fans and critics tend to forget this and focus on Spike's attempted rape of Buffy.

 

[Kelsey]

You want to know what I really disliked about the rape attempt in "Seeing Red"? It was another excuse for the show's writers and some of the critics to conveniently forget that other characters were guilty of rape or attempted rape. And that include Xander, who tried to rape Buffy in S1; Faith, who tried to rape Xander in S3; Buffy, who tried to rape Spike in S6's "Gone"; and Willow, who was guilty of not only two counts of psychic rape against Tara; but took advantage of the first act of psychic rape to have sex with Tara.

Yet, many fans and critics tend to forget this and focus on Spike's attempted rape of Buffy.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I actually agree with your point about Willow and somewhat about Buffy in "Gone," but Xander trying to rape Buffy in S1? And Faith trying to rape Xander? Maybe my memory's faulty, but I don't recall either of those.

As for the Spike v. Angel debate, for the record, I don't think either vampire is less than the other. But to condemn Spike for having trouble with his soul by citing that Angel could still fight with it was completely unfair. I think they both coped in acceptable ways, and neither really did a better job than the other. Aside from me liking Spuffy more than Bangel, I really never try to bash Angel just because I like Spike more. Angel's done a lot of redeeming of his own, and he's admirable. I just happen to like Spike's story better. It's more personal and more romantic.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I think shes referring to when Xander was possessed by the Spirit of a hyena and the time Xander and Faith almost had sex (When Xander though he could help her)

Although I don't agree with either of those, as Xander was possessed and I'd say Faiths attempt was more towards murder then rape, she was closer to killing him then raping him.