Eliminating "Seeing Red"

[Kelsey]

I think shes referring to when Xander was possessed by the Spirit of a hyena and the time Xander and Faith almost had sex (When Xander though he could help her)

Although I don't agree with either of those, as Xander was possessed and I'd say Faiths attempt was more towards murder then rape, she was closer to killing him then raping him.

Got it. Yeah, I don't think you can really count Xander since he was possessed. If we start blaming all the characters for the things they did while they were affected by demons or possessed, we'd get a much, much longer list of condemnable actions. Take Buffy trying to kill all of her friends in Normal Again.

Like I said though, I agree with the rest somewhat. But that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Got it. Yeah, I don't think you can really count Xander since he was possessed. If we start blaming all the characters for the things they did while they were affected by demons or possessed, we'd get a much, much longer list of condemnable actions. Take Buffy trying to kill all of her friends in Normal Again.

If you're going to excuse Xander's rape attempt on the basis of him being possesed, you might as well excuse Spike on the basis that he was a souless vampire.

Angel's done a lot of redeeming of his own, and he's admirable.

Yet, at the same time, Angel did a lot of questionable and awful stuff on his show - while he had a soul.

Although I don't agree with either of those, as Xander was possessed and I'd say Faiths attempt was more towards murder then rape, she was closer to killing him then raping him.

But Faith was trying to rape him, as well.


Regardless . . . everyone always talk about Spike's rape attempt and barely talk about what the other characters - especially those who are human - have done or tried to do.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Regardless . . . everyone always talk about Spike's rape attempt and barely talk about what the other characters - especially those who are human - have done or tried to do.

This isn't necessarily true. I recall some threads recently where Xander's AR of Buffy when he was possessed was brought up, and we talk about what Willow did to Tara in TB A LOT, and believe me, a day doesn't go by where SOMEONE isn't arguing about 'Seeing Red.' As for the scene in 'Gone' with Buffy and Spike, many on here DO argue that was rape because he asked her to leave and she refused. Whatever. Basically, what I'm saying is that we DO talk about other forms of "rape" on the show, not just the one in 'Seeing Red.' In some other thread we were just talking about Angelus and how he "violated" Holtz's wife.

But like I've said before, for some reason, Spike will never get "off the hook" for what he did. His Get out of Jail Free card doesn't apply to some fans, only to Buffy. 😉

 

[white avenger]

But to condemn Spike for having trouble with his soul by citing that Angel could still fight with it was completely unfair.

Spike never had any trouble actually fighting after he got hos soul. In his own words, he could just no longer "relish the kill" as much as he had before, and I always saw that as a parallel to Willow's reluctance to unleash her full magical power. Both knew what they could be capable of if they allowed their own personal demons to tale full control once more, and they were both afraid that, once unleashed again, their power would take complete control.

And once again, it was Buffy who convinced them both that they were strong enough to remain in control.

It's a shame that she couldn't have done the same thing for Faith back in Season 3.

 

[LadyLavinia]

And once again, it was Buffy who convinced them both that they were strong enough to remain in control.

It's a shame that she couldn't have done the same thing for Faith back in Season 3.

I don't think that Buffy was mature enough to come to that realization back in Season 3. Remember, even as far back as early to mid Season 6, she was among the others who thought that Willow needed to go cold turkey on magic, instead of learning to control it and her emotions.

 

[Kelsey]

If you're going to excuse Xander's rape attempt on the basis of him being possesed, you might as well excuse Spike on the basis that he was a souless vampire.

Yet at the same time, Angel did a lot of questionable and awful stuff on his show - while he had a soul.


But Faith was trying to rape him, as well.


Regardless . . . everyone always talk about Spike's rape attempt and barely talk about what the other characters - especially those who are human - have done or tried to do.

I agree with Becky--we do talk about what the other characters have tried to do in other threads. But Spike is one of the central characters in the great shipper wars, which is why his mistakes probably get brought up the most.

As for Spike getting excused for being a soulless vampire... you know, I'm kind of torn on this issue now. On the one hand, Spike should be afforded every pardon that Angel gets, but on the other... I don't want to disregard everything Spike was before the soul, which is what people tend to do with Angel. I loved Spike then, I believed in him, and he was my favorite character. So I don't necessarily want to say, "Everything bad before the soul doesn't count," because then everything good he did wouldn't count either.

People can tell me until they're blue in the face (or until their typing fingers are sore) that Spike was only a soulless monster and that he did what he did because he was evil, but I'll always think that's a shallow, unfair view of Spike. Spike had a personality and a system of beliefs, most of which centered around Buffy. He was just as capable of good as he was of evil. He finally made the choice to go with the side of good, and that's what made the difference. But he always had that potential, even at his most wretched times.

He was a constant contradiction, because he could be as caring as he was ruthless and as loving as he was hateful. Spike fought the same battle of good against evil that Buffy fought every day, but the difference was, he fought it within himself. And in the end he won.

 

[Stakesteak]

There are definitely some very good arguments made in this thread and after thinking about it, I really don't think we can hold Spike's actions against him too much. While he certainly was capable of good while soulless and did many great things, I believe he was fundamentally incapable of interpreting right from wrong as a normal human being would and his actions didn't seem like an act of evil to him until Buffy was able to push him away. When he saw her face after that I think he understood perfectly that what he was doing was wrong and promptly set out to rectify it in the best way he could think of.

I think that we also need to take into account the fact that his relationship with Buffy throughout season 6 was extremely emotionally and often physically abusive on both sides and since Buffy wasn't able to force him off immediately like she would normally be able to, he didn't quite get the message that his advances were completely unwanted until she shoved him back.

On a side-note, I think that it's harder for people to forgive Spike for his actions in this episode than to forgive Angel for his deeds as Angellus because soulless spike is so much closer to being human than Angellus or just about any other vamp for that matter. Throughout the course of the series, Spike had displayed so many human qualities such as love, loyalty (mainly to Buffy), and friendship (Dawn and Joyce), that his actions in Seeing Red hit a lot closer to home.

 

[TheVoid68]

Yes, I think that the key difference between Angel(us) and Spike is the way their character's were presented. Angel(us) was clear and consistent - Angelus was an entirely seperate character from Angel, not just in their actions, but in their personalities, mannerisms and even dress sense. Angel isn't held accountable for anything Angelus did, because in effect they were different people (though of course he still went for redemption anyway).

Spike was completely different. He was presented as one character. Pre-soul Spike was not presented like Angelus was. Angelus was an inhuman, evil monster. Spike was evil, sure, but was established as an unusual vampire, capable of love and affection, and doing good. He was presented as a character much closer to the "Good" side of the Good/Evil spectrum than Angelus was. Then after he got his soul, he still remained essentially the same character. His personality, mannerisms and dress sense remained the same, he was just Spike+guilt. There's a reason he don't usually bother with seperate names for pre-soul and post-soul Spike.

The AR was jarring because it, for that scene, treated Spike as equal to Angelus, and it completely jarred with what had been established up until then. Another poster said that you can't have it both ways, and that's very true. Was Spike an unusually good vampire who started his road to redemption prior to getting a soul, or was he a soulless monster like Angelus who then became good after his soul. Forget that scene being demeaning to Buffy's character or whatnot, it was simply inconsistent with the Spike that had been established.

People do not excuse Spike for his pre-soul actions so easily because he was not in the same position as Angel(us). Angel and Angelus were two distinct identities, you could file all Angelus' deeds under his name, and all Angel's deeds under his. Spike was just one character the whole way through, everything that he's ever done is lumped all together and you have to take it all. That's the difference.

To answer the thread question, no, it didn't change my opinion. I already hated Spike and Spuffy, it already disgusted me on multiple levels. It was Smashed that changed my opinion, I was actually quite ready to enjoy it before that episode.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

The AR was jarring because it, for that scene, treated Spike as equal to Angelus, and it completely jarred with what had been established up until then. Another poster said that you can't have it both ways, and that's very true. Was Spike an unusually good vampire who started his road to redemption prior to getting a soul, or was he a soulless monster like Angelus who then became good after his soul. Forget that scene being demeaning to Buffy's character or whatnot, it was simply inconsistent with the Spike that had been established.

Yes, exactly. Many of us believe the AR was out of character, or as you say, inconsistent with how Spike's character had been previously established.

People do not excuse Spike for his pre-soul actions so easily because he was not in the same position as Angel(us). Angel and Angelus were two distinct identities, you could file all Angelus' deeds under his name, and all Angel's deeds under his. Spike was just one character the whole way through, everything that he's ever done is lumped all together and you have to take it all. That's the difference.

Definitely. Yet, I'd disagree that Spike was "one character the whole way through." That's not the case. Spike went through the most drastic evolution of any character in the 'verse, nothing short of the journeys Buffy and Wesley went through, arguably. Spike went from Villian to Comic Relief-bit to Antihero to love interest to Hero. No one character on the show has played more roles and been as adaptable as Spike.

To answer the thread question, no, it didn't change my opinion. I already hated Spike and Spuffy, it already disgusted me on multiple levels. It was Smashed that changed my opinion, I was actually quite ready to enjoy it before that episode.

Huh. Interesting. Why, way I ask did 'Smashed' change your mind? What about Spuffy Season 7? How do you feel about their relationship at that point?

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think that we also need to take into account the fact that his relationship with Buffy throughout season 6 was extremely emotionally and often physically abusive on both sides and since Buffy wasn't able to force him off immediately like she would normally be able to, he didn't quite get the message that his advances were completely unwanted until she shoved him back.

Aside from the atempted rape in "Seeing Red", Spike never really abused Buffy. She had initiated most of the abuse - including attempted rape in "Gone" - during Season 6.

Angel and Angelus were two distinct identities, you could file all Angelus' deeds under his name, and all Angel's deeds under his. Spike was just one character the whole way through, everything that he's ever done is lumped all together and you have to take it all. That's the difference.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that argument. Not at all. I refuse to give Angel leeway for his past actions and not do the same for Spike, because Angel had a soul enforced upon him. I find that excuse nothing but good old-fashioned hypocrisy. And considering that Angel tried to resume his old ways when he had rejoined Darla, Spike and Drusilla in China and had committed a great deal of questionable acts with a soul . . . this excuse about Angel and Angelus being two different people does not hold water in my eyes.

 

[TheVoid68]

Definitely. Yet, I'd disagree that Spike was "one character the whole way through." That's not the case. Spike went through the most drastic evolution of any character in the 'verse, nothing short of the journeys Buffy and Wesley went through, arguably. Spike went from Villian to Comic Relief-bit to Antihero to love interest to Hero. No one character on the show has played more roles and been as adaptable as Spike.

Oh, I'm not saying he was a static character, far from it. But he was the same character the whole way through, he just changed a lot. Pre-soul and post-soul Spike are jsut different stages of the same character, while Angel and Angelus are different characters.

Huh. Interesting. Why, way I ask did 'Smashed' change your mind?

Before that I was ready to enjoy Spuffy somewhat because I thought that Spike actually cared about Buffy, like when he comforted her in Fool for Love or Bargaining. But Smashed showed that he was just a ruthless bastard. As soon as he found out he could hurt her, he did it and enjoyed it. The last scene was just plain abuse on Spike's part, and instead of responding by staking him or at least kneeing him in the groin, she kissed him. It portrayed Buffy as weak and submissive, and was in my view an insult to a character I once loved. Not only did Buffy's change in personality after coming back to life destroy her character, it made Spike look like a complete and utter arsehole for taking advantage of her when she was depressed and suicidal.

What about Spuffy Season 7? How do you feel about their relationship at that point?

'Fraid I haven't seen S7 yet. I'm prepared for an improvement, it'll be a hella lot less abusive after the whole getting-a-soul thing.

 

[LadyLavinia]

But Smashed showed that he was just a ruthless bastard. As soon as he found out he could hurt her, he did it and enjoyed it. The last scene was just plain abuse on Spike's part, and instead of responding by staking him or at least kneeing him in the groin, she kissed him. It portrayed Buffy as weak and submissive, and was in my view an insult to a character I once loved. Not only did Buffy's change in personality after coming back to life destroy her character, it made Spike look like a complete and utter arsehole for taking advantage of her when she was depressed and suicidal.

Buffy was the one who initiated everything - the violence and the sex - in "Smashed". Not Spike. She hit him for saying something and in response, Spike hit her back, realizing that his chip didn't work on her.

And when he had set up their meeting at that condemned house, it was Buffy who initiated both the violence again, and later, the sex between them. Not Spike. I suggest that you watch that episode again.

This tendency to make excuses for Buffy's actions and condemn Spike for things he was not even guilty of strikes me as ridiculous.

 

[TheVoid68]

And when he had set up their meeting at that condemned house, it was Buffy who initiated both the violence again,

Yes, but he still slapped her about in a way that was scarily similar to an abusive boyfriend.

and later, the sex between them.

Because she was suicidal and self-harming. Spike took advantage of her manic depression to get what he wanted.

Not Spike.

He did initiate/pressure her into it a lot of times afterwards - taunting her, manipulating her, convincing her she "came back wrong" and "belonged in the dark". Again, he took advantage of her fragile mental state and manipluate to serve his own ends.

I suggest that you watch that episode again.

I suggest you be a little less condescending.

This tendency to make excuses for Buffy's actions and condemn Spike for things he was not even guilty of strikes me as ridiculous.

If you read my post you'd notice I was criticising both Spike and Buffy. I thought she acted selfishly and immaturely during her relationship with Spike (eg. deciding that instead of making sure Dawn didn't go hungry she'd have sex with Spike up against a tree). However, it should be noted that she was going through extreme depression, and Spike did a lot to make it worse for her. She improved a lot once Spike was out of her life.

 

[LadyLavinia]

He did initiate/pressure her into it a lot of times afterwards - taunting her, manipulating her, convincing her she "came back wrong" and "belonged in the dark". Again, he took advantage of her fragile mental state and manipluate to serve his own ends.

I recall Spike making such a speech on the balcony in "Dead Again". But Buffy was already in the dark. She had been in the dark since her resurrection. Spike didn't have to do a damn thing. Well, he did make two mistakes. One, he allowed Buffy to use him as her personal bed stud/punching bag, even if he didn't care for her treatment of him. This was brought up in Season 7. And two, he tried to assault her in "Seeing Red". However, Buffy was guilty of the same thing, when she tried to assault Spike, while invisible in "Gone".

But naturally, you will never blame Buffy for anything. She is the star of the show. And the crimes and mistakes of most leading characters are usually excused by fans. Because they don't want to admit that "heroic" characters are capable of such dark acts.

However, it should be noted that she was going through extreme depression, and Spike did a lot to make it worse for her. She improved a lot once Spike was out of her life.

I don't care how depressed Buffy was. She had no excuse to abuse Spike in that fashion. If Spike had no excuse for his mistakes, then neither did Buffy. She improved once Spike was out of her life? Really? If that was the case, then there was no need for a Season 7. And as I recall, Spike re-entered her life during that season. And as it turned out, she needed him as much as he needed her.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I don't care how depressed Buffy was. She had no excuse to abuse Spike in that fashion. If Spike had no excuse for his mistakes, then neither did Buffy. She improved once Spike was out of her life? Really? If that was the case, then there was no need for a Season 7. And as I recall, Spike re-entered her life during that season. And as it turned out, she needed him as much as he needed her.

I agree with you. Buffy used Spike in the same way he used her. She used him as her own personal sex toy and as a punching bag. She took out all her self-hate on him. In 'Dead Things' when he tried to keep her from turning herself in for Katrina's death, instead of thanking him for his concern, she beat him to bloody pulp and left him in the alley. Their relationship was dysfunctional, unhealthy, and manipulative and both parties were equally to blame. Spike loved her and did anything she wanted, regardless of her mixed signals - and she KEPT COMING BACK TO HIM. Spike is not to blame for this. Buffy is not innocent. Both "fed" off each other.

In regard to Buffy being better off without Spike in her life; one needs to take a closer look at Season 7 before making that assumption. Spike was more important to Buffy in S7 then any other character. He was there for her when everyone else abandoned her. He was her shoulder to lean on, the only person she felt she could really be herself with. Spike was everything to her; her confidante, her friend, and in my opinion - her true love. He gave her the strength to continue to fight. He taught her to love again. What he did for her and for her mission? He redeemed himself double-time. But no spoilers here,

 

[TheVoid68]

I recall Spike making such a speech on the balcony in "Dead Again". But Buffy was already in the dark. She had been in the dark since her resurrection. Spike didn't have to do a damn thing. Well, he did make two mistakes. One, he allowed Buffy to use him as her personal bed stud/punching bag, even if he didn't care for her treatment of him.

I don't think that actively following her around, constantly trying to convince her to continue their affair, manipulating her fears about having come back wrong as "not doing a damn thing".

And two, he tried to assault her in "Seeing Red". However, Buffy was guilty of the same thing, when she tried to assault Spike, while invisible in "Gone".

Codswallop. Spike didn't protest once in "Gone". Trying to equate Spike's assault/attempted rape of Buffy while she was pleading for him to stop with a little oral sex is frankly sick and offensive.

But naturally, you will never blame Buffy for anything. She is the star of the show. And the crimes and mistakes of most leading characters are usually excused by fans. Because they don't want to admit that "heroic" characters are capable of such dark acts.

Look, I'm not going to blame Buffy for something she didn't do. She didn't attempt to rape Spike in "Gone", and that's the end of it.

I don't care how depressed Buffy was. She had no excuse to abuse Spike in that fashion.

I didn't see Spike complaining much. He spent most of S6 begging Buffy to be with him. You could argue that Buffy was using Spike, but Spike didn't exactly have a problem with being used.

If Spike had no excuse for his mistakes, then neither did Buffy.

Buffy's mistakes do not equate to Spikes! Nothing questionable that Buffy did can possibly reach Spike's attempted rape.

She improved once Spike was out of her life? Really? If that was the case, then there was no need for a Season 7. And as I recall, Spike re-entered her life during that season. And as it turned out, she needed him as much as he needed her.

I was talking about the last few episodes of S6, where Buffy gets off her self-pitying ass and starts taking notice of her friends and sister. "Grave" ended with Buffy actually happy for the first time that season - without Spike.

I gotta watch S7.

 

[NY State of Mind]

No i cant agree to deleting any episode not even this very controversial one..i take it for what it is

 

[LadyLavinia]

He was a constant contradiction, because he could be as caring as he was ruthless and as loving as he was hateful. Spike fought the same battle of good against evil that Buffy fought every day, but the difference was, he fought it within himself. And in the end he won.

That constant contradiction was in all of the characters. And it is in everyone, as well. Even if many humans refuse to admit this.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

Personally, I try not to think about that scene too much. All the Tillow stuff in SR distracts me, anyway.

I've always viewed rape as one of the worst, most unpardonable acts in the world. But at this time, it's important to remember that Spike didn't have a soul. I trace his turn to good as it relates to Buffy. What I mean is, if he sees something that he knows Buffy specifically wouldn't like, he tries to stay away from it. Essentially, presoul, I think his actions are based around Buffy's morals. But I don't think that subject ever came up between them and even though he knew it was bad, maybe he didn't know how bad? I'm not entirely sure what I'm saying here, but when your evil, are there shades of evil? Could Spike distinguish between the awfulness of rape and something else? He hadn't had Buffy to guide him on this subject.

 

[JudyLovesBuffy]

Please forgive me for not reading through this whole thread, but I just wanted to give my POV on the initial question. I think the AR was a defining moment for Spike. Without it, I don't think Spike would have sought his missing soul, and we wouldn't have had the Season 7 Spike we got.

The fact that he stopped BEFORE the rape is telling for me. It shows, his face shows anyway, that he was appalled at what he did. He was angry with himself afterward. It may have seemed he was angry with Buffy in his tirade with Clem, but IMHO, he was railing at himself.

I admit I am prejudiced here because I like Spike. I don't condone rape or attempted rape, but I do think that in Spike's frenzy in the bathroom, he didn't realize just what he was doing. Their relationship, up to that point, was based on how they felt during their sexual liasons. I think he thought if he could just be with her again, in that way, she would see that she was making a mistake by leaving him. Of course he was absolutely wrong.

I also thought the fact that the ONE person Buffy felt Dawn would be safe with was Spike. Even after what he did to her in the bathroom, she sought him out and was affected by the fact that he left town.

I guess this was my convoluted way of saying, NO, I don't think the episode should have been deleted.