Empty Places...Were the Scoobies right?

[Sunnydale Siren]

When they voted for Faith to be in charge, along with Dawn asking Buffy to leave.

Granted I thought "huh?" when she took the Potentials to face Caleb, but the full on mutiny suprised me.

 

[Revolver]

I hate that scene. It really makes no sense. I can see the Potentials freaking out, but Buffy's friends have been through hell before, and sending away their strongest warrior just makes no sense. I can sort of forgive Xander, given what had just happened with him, but Willow had no legitimate reason to turn on Buffy, Giles was just acting petty, and Dawn was unbelievably ungrateful for all her sister had done for her.

 

[Rayne]

I completely agree. It was total BS what they did. Someone had to stand up and be leader and hold everyone together...sure she could be harsh and bossy but she had to be. I couldn't believe the audacity they all had ganging up on her and sending her away...

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

They were out of order acting like that to Buffy. Like who does Anya think she is, Telling Buffy she thinks shes better than everyone. I never thought Buffy thought that. Willow and Dawn were way wrong too. At least Spike ends up putting them in their place.

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

I hate that scene. It really makes no sense. I can see the Potentials freaking out, but Buffy's friends have been through hell before, and sending away their strongest warrior just makes no sense. I can sort of forgive Xander, given what had just happened with him, but Willow had no legitimate reason to turn on Buffy, Giles was just acting petty, and Dawn was unbelievably ungrateful for all her sister had done for her.

watching "Touched" right now, Spike called Rupert out about his pettiness. Loved how he told them off.

Plus it's been kinda chaotic since She left.

 

[white avenger]

We've had this discussion before, it's almost become as popular as Spuffy vs Bangel in some circles, but I'll state my opinion on it once more.

The entire mutiny situation was brought about by poor planning on Buffy's part and poor judgment on Faith's and the Scoobies' part. As the Commander of the force, Buffy had the authority to issue orders, even if it meant sending young girls to their deaths. And let us be clear from the first. It WAS a war, Buffy WAS the general, and the others had the options of either following her orders or leaving.

Now, here were the mistakes as I saw them:

1) Before Buffy made any announcement about launching a second assault on the vineyard, she should have taken Giles, Faith, Willow, and Xander someplace private and discussed with them what she had in mind. THat would have been the time for counter suggestions, questions, or arguments. Faith's initial suggestion, "Or, how about...we don't," could have been addressed at that time and the debate settled, even if it had to come down to Buffy's reminding any or all of them that the front door was open and there were plenty of vacant houses where they could find shelter, but if they remained in her house, they were under her command. An army is a monarchy, not a democracy.

After the plan had been proposed and strategies worked out, THEN Buffy, with the support of her lieutenants, should have announced her plan, with as much detail as she deemed necessary, to the troops, once more with the reminder about the open door and the available vacant houses for anyone not ready to take orders.

Did you notice that I left Dawn, Anya, and Wood out of that inner circle of advisers with whom Buffy worked out her plans? For a simple reason. None of them had anything constructive to contribute, and, in Wood's case, was completely untrustworthy. She should have told Spike to go ahead and kill him right after she slammed the door in Giles' face.

If the situation had gone down that way, the entire next episode could have been rewritten or discarded completely.

 

[Sunnydale Siren]

We've had this discussion before, it's almost become as popular as Spuffy vs Bangel in some circles, but I'll state my opinion on it once more.

The entire mutiny situation was brought about by poor planning on Buffy's part and poor judgment on Faith's and the Scoobies' part. As the Commander of the force, Buffy had the authority to issue orders, even if it meant sending young girls to their deaths. And let us be clear from the first. It WAS a war, Buffy WAS the general, and the others had the options of either following her orders or leaving.

Now, here were the mistakes as I saw them:

1) Before Buffy made any announcement about launching a second assault on the vineyard, she should have taken Giles, Faith, Willow, and Xander someplace private and discussed with them what she had in mind. THat would have been the time for counter suggestions, questions, or arguments. Faith's initial suggestion, "Or, how about...we don't," could have been addressed at that time and the debate settled, even if it had to come down to Buffy's reminding any or all of them that the front door was open and there were plenty of vacant houses where they could find shelter, but if they remained in her house, they were under her command. An army is a monarchy, not a democracy.

After the plan had been proposed and strategies worked out, THEN Buffy, with the support of her lieutenants, should have announced her plan, with as much detail as she deemed necessary, to the troops, once more with the reminder about the open door and the available vacant houses for anyone not ready to take orders.

Did you notice that I left Dawn, Anya, and Wood out of that inner circle of advisers with whom Buffy worked out her plans? For a simple reason. None of them had anything constructive to contribute, and, in Wood's case, was completely untrustworthy. She should have told Spike to go ahead and kill him right after she slammed the door in Giles' face.

If the situation had gone down that way, the entire next episode could have been rewritten or discarded completely.

Well said, even though I like Robin Wood.

 

[Buff4ever]

We've had this discussion before, it's almost become as popular as Spuffy vs Bangel in some circles, but I'll state my opinion on it once more.

The entire mutiny situation was brought about by poor planning on Buffy's part and poor judgment on Faith's and the Scoobies' part. As the Commander of the force, Buffy had the authority to issue orders, even if it meant sending young girls to their deaths. And let us be clear from the first. It WAS a war, Buffy WAS the general, and the others had the options of either following her orders or leaving.

Now, here were the mistakes as I saw them:

1) Before Buffy made any announcement about launching a second assault on the vineyard, she should have taken Giles, Faith, Willow, and Xander someplace private and discussed with them what she had in mind. THat would have been the time for counter suggestions, questions, or arguments. Faith's initial suggestion, "Or, how about...we don't," could have been addressed at that time and the debate settled, even if it had to come down to Buffy's reminding any or all of them that the front door was open and there were plenty of vacant houses where they could find shelter, but if they remained in her house, they were under her command. An army is a monarchy, not a democracy.

After the plan had been proposed and strategies worked out, THEN Buffy, with the support of her lieutenants, should have announced her plan, with as much detail as she deemed necessary, to the troops, once more with the reminder about the open door and the available vacant houses for anyone not ready to take orders.

Did you notice that I left Dawn, Anya, and Wood out of that inner circle of advisers with whom Buffy worked out her plans? For a simple reason. None of them had anything constructive to contribute, and, in Wood's case, was completely untrustworthy. She should have told Spike to go ahead and kill him right after she slammed the door in Giles' face.

If the situation had gone down that way, the entire next episode could have been rewritten or discarded completely.

Brilliant analysis, lad!

 

[Sunshine]

The fight was for the slayer and potential slayers. I don't think Buffy had anyone to answer to.

 

[charmingslayer]

The only ones who had good points were Faith and Anya but Buffy was sorta right.

 

[Your Creamy Coolness]

I think this scene is actually pretty sad but somewhat necessary. It really helped paved the way for Spike and Buffy to get their scene in which he "gave her the strength" to do what had to be done. I do strongly agree with with WA in that it all boiled down to terrible planning!

Even though Buffy was treated like "dirt" her grace in passing the baton right onto Faith (to me) showed how much she had grown through the years. Buffy of the past would have told her off. I liked seeing that side of Buffy but truly felt sorry for her. "She's died for you!" The truth!

Oh by the way, "Got any tab?"

 

[sosa lola]

I think this scene is actually pretty sad but somewhat necessary. It really helped paved the way for Spike and Buffy to get their scene in which he "gave her the strength" to do what had to be done.

Why can't Spike be Buffy's strength without trashing every single character? I hate that this whole scene was about Buffy and Spike finding each other or whatever, what about the other characters? We don't see what they're thinking about, we don't see them redeeming themselves, we don't even see them talking... it's like Xander, Giles, Willow, Dawn and Anya are just background characters, shadows that don't matter anymore. Not characters who had been there from the beginning, the so called main/regular characters.

That's my complaint. I don't mind Buffy admitting to Spike that he's the one, as long as the other characters are in character. It's like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old where all the Scoobies are big meanies to Buffy and Spike is the knight in shining armor, the only one who cares about her. Meh.

 

[Kean]

Why can't Spike be Buffy's strength without trashing every single character? I hate that this whole scene was about Buffy and Spike finding each other or whatever, what about the other characters? We don't see what they're thinking about, we don't see them redeeming themselves, we don't even see them talking... it's like Xander, Giles, Willow, Dawn and Anya are just background characters, shadows that don't matter anymore. Not characters who had been there from the beginning, the so called main/regular characters.

That's my complaint. I don't mind Buffy admitting to Spike that he's the one, as long as the other characters are in character. It's like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old where all the Scoobies are big meanies to Buffy and Spike is the knight in shining armor, the only one who cares about her. Meh.

We've had this discussion a thousand times so you know where I stand. I see the whole thing as mutiny, simple as that.

However, I have to agree with you about the lack of insight into what the other characters were going through. I bitch alot about how the Scoobies treated Buffy in seasons 6 and 7 but I'm wondering now, does their actions, when compared with previous seasons strike anyone else as completely out of character? Is this simply down to Joss pulling back in those seasons or is it something else? SMG desribed Buffy's journey in season 6 as "losing the hero" in the Slayer, she felt this so strongly that she went to Joss and Marti to implore them to bring Buffy as we knew her back. Is that what season 7 was? Buffy becoming the the hero once more and the Scoobies being her villains?

 

[sosa lola]

I just can't see the Scoobies sending Buffy away and barely caring. Yes, they fought and disagreed with each other before but it never came to this. Even OMWF had Xander and Anya being angry at Giles and telling him that they shouldn't leave Buffy alone, they went to help her eventually. Now here, the Scoobies had no emotions, no thoughts, didn't even talk about Buffy, just stood there being nothing but silent walls. That's OOC -or in better words, the writers losing interest in the Scoobies. Lousy writing.

---------- Post added at 07:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 AM ----------

Sorry for the double post, but regarding what WA said,

We've had this discussion before, it's almost become as popular as Spuffy vs Bangel in some circles, but I'll state my opinion on it once more.

The entire mutiny situation was brought about by poor planning on Buffy's part and poor judgment on Faith's and the Scoobies' part. As the Commander of the force, Buffy had the authority to issue orders, even if it meant sending young girls to their deaths. And let us be clear from the first. It WAS a war, Buffy WAS the general, and the others had the options of either following her orders or leaving.

Now, here were the mistakes as I saw them:

1) Before Buffy made any announcement about launching a second assault on the vineyard, she should have taken Giles, Faith, Willow, and Xander someplace private and discussed with them what she had in mind. THat would have been the time for counter suggestions, questions, or arguments. Faith's initial suggestion, "Or, how about...we don't," could have been addressed at that time and the debate settled, even if it had to come down to Buffy's reminding any or all of them that the front door was open and there were plenty of vacant houses where they could find shelter, but if they remained in her house, they were under her command. An army is a monarchy, not a democracy.

After the plan had been proposed and strategies worked out, THEN Buffy, with the support of her lieutenants, should have announced her plan, with as much detail as she deemed necessary, to the troops, once more with the reminder about the open door and the available vacant houses for anyone not ready to take orders.

Did you notice that I left Dawn, Anya, and Wood out of that inner circle of advisers with whom Buffy worked out her plans? For a simple reason. None of them had anything constructive to contribute, and, in Wood's case, was completely untrustworthy. She should have told Spike to go ahead and kill him right after she slammed the door in Giles' face.

If the situation had gone down that way, the entire next episode could have been rewritten or discarded completely.

I've just read a fic about Empty Places that treated the scene with your suggestions and I have to say, things wouldn't have gone badly if Buffy talked privately to the Scoobies:

The fic in question

 

[Willowsgirl]

I actually agreed with the Scoobies here. Buffy was out of line with her whole "you do as I say or you're against me" thing she had going on. Buffy has always been helped by Willow, Xander and Giles and because of that, they deserved to have some say in what happens. Buffy couldn't do this alone and I felt she needed them to yell at her in order for her to see that. She can't just expect to boss people around, get some of the killed, and just expect them to follow orders like good little underlings. That is NOT a good way to get allies in a war. Tends to annoy people to the point where they don't want to help you anymore, even if it is petty at times.

On that note, I think of this whole situation as how George W. Bush did his "war on terror." Giving orders, not seeking help, not explaining his reasoning to them just expecting them to follow orders, and thus losing allies that he really needed. Again, that is not a good way to run a war. Bush didn't understand this fact even after the world yelled at him, luckily Buffy did in the end. /Anti Bush rant over.

 

[The_Final_Cylon]

I agree with Willowsgirl.
Buffy may have always been 'The' slayer but it's always been about the group. I think Buffy should have been a lot less bossy over everyone. I understand her feeling like she has authoritie over the potentials but not her friends and family who are very much not new to this.

 

[Rayne]

It's true that they kind of dropped the other characters into the background a bit. However I don't think it was about Buffy and Spike. Like Spike had said, it had nothing to do with him. The show is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. We did lose her for awhile there and it was about her regaining her strength and finding it in her to do what needed to be done. It was important for her character to gain the power to move forward and grow. Become the slayer she was meant to be...and she had to lose everything to do this. I don't think the scoobies were really the villains so much as they had a war to fight and some, understandably, were letting emotions get in the way. I don't feel they were uncaring they just had to look forward and plan. They did try to find her and they did worry about her. It just wasn't about them at that point. Plus, they cancelled the show and didn't have a lot of time to get everything squared away which sucks.

 

[fly on the wall]

Why can't Spike be Buffy's strength without trashing every single character? I hate that this whole scene was about Buffy and Spike finding each other or whatever, what about the other characters? We don't see what they're thinking about, we don't see them redeeming themselves, we don't even see them talking... it's like Xander, Giles, Willow, Dawn and Anya are just background characters, shadows that don't matter anymore. Not characters who had been there from the beginning, the so called main/regular characters.

That's my complaint. I don't mind Buffy admitting to Spike that he's the one, as long as the other characters are in character. It's like reading a Spuffy fic written by a 13 year old where all the Scoobies are big meanies to Buffy and Spike is the knight in shining armor, the only one who cares about her. Meh.

You know, that's my biggest complaint about S7. I don't mind Spuffyness, but unfortunately, a lot of Spuffyness in S7 came at the expense of the other characters and their development, and that's what really bugs me.

As for what Anya said...well, she was totally right. Buffy even knew she was right. In "Conversations with Dead People," she SAYS she thinks she's better than people. She has reasons, of course...being The Slayer is a huge weight and of course it has its effects on her...but I thought Anya's point was brilliant. Buffy wasn't better, she was luckier. We don't really know how Potentials are chosen...pretty much, it seems to be a random draw.

Also...Buffy wasn't acting like a team player this season, but that's because she WASN'T a team player. This wasn't a nest of vampires they were dusting, this was a war, a war that Buffy herself had declared. They needed a leader. They'd always needed a leader, truth be told, but now more so than ever. Buffy was a general. I don't think she was wrong in being a general, either. Yes, she had to make tough decisions. Yes, her decisions put peoples' lives on the line, and yes, she made some mistakes. She even tried to get other peoples' input, but at the end of the day, there couldn't be a vote on everything. For better or worse, Buffy WAS in charge.

 

[Kean]

As for what Anya said...well, she was totally right. Buffy even knew she was right. In "Conversations with Dead People," she SAYS she thinks she's better than people. She has reasons, of course...being The Slayer is a huge weight and of course it has its effects on her...but I thought Anya's point was brilliant. Buffy wasn't better, she was luckier. We don't really know how Potentials are chosen...pretty much, it seems to be a random draw.

This point has always pissed me off. First off, I don't know how anyone could call Buffy lucky for the position she found herself in. Yes she had power but what joy or benefits had it brought her? What had she gained from it? Look at the seven years of the series and any joy Buffy got in her life usually had nothing to do with slaying or being the Slayer, infact, being the Slayer normally ruined any semblence of happiness in her life. Buffy was everything BUT lucky.

Second of all, being lucky implies an openess and unrestricted future. That what happens to you is up to chance and you just happen to be blessed to have goodness come your way, to be lucky. However, we have been told time and time again that Buffy had a destiny, that she was fated to live the life she lived, she was Chosen. There is no luck in that, destiny is a plan. It is not necessarily a fixed plan but there is a solid guideline to what will happen. We haven't been given a clear reason why certain girls are called but I would venture to say it is anything but random, the use of the word "Chosen" goes against that suggestion. Those girls were picked for a reason, what that is I don't know but it sure is hell wasn't luck.

 

[fly on the wall]

Honestly...I believe Buffy was a lot luckier than she felt most of the time. Of course being a Slayer was a tough gig. But it was also an incredibly rewarding one.

So many people - literally and figuratively, in Sunnydale and all over the world - have demons they are not strong enough to fight. But Buffy is. She can fight back against the horrors that exist.

She gained nothing from it? Really?
She gained a lot of meaningful relationships because of her powers, actually. Willow and Xander, Angel, Giles, Spike, Dawn...essentially everyone she met and bonded with was because of her Slayerness. That's pretty damn lucky, if you ask me.

She was able to HELP people. I think if you're given a gift that allows you to avert Apolocalypses...well, that's pretty great. It's dangerous, and I'm sure a lot of the time Buffy wished it was someone else's responsibility...but while most of the world sits idle, she's able to do something. She has the knowledge and ability to help and save lives.

To say she's gained nothing from being a Slayer...well, I strongly disagree. And to say she isn't lucky...Luck isn't black and white. It comes in many forms, and just because you're lucky enough to get something, doesn't mean there are NO drawbacks. There are positives and negatives to everything in life.
I don't think that "being Chosen" necessarily means it's less random. I look at it in the same way that numbers are chosen for a powerball. The person who wins is lucky. They might have a horrible home life that money can't fix, but they're still lucky in other ways. Does that make sense?