Empty Places...Were the Scoobies right?

[Kean]

Ok, I think I was a little too black and white with what I said up above but I still believe wholeheartedly that being the Slayer has nothing to do with luck and Buffy was anything but lucky.

Honestly...I believe Buffy was a lot luckier than she felt most of the time. Of course being a Slayer was a tough gig. But it was also an incredibly rewarding one.

I think this is a bit too idealistic or romantic a look at what being the Slayer really meant and continues to mean in Season 8. Yes Buffy gets to help people and that in itself is rewarding BUT being branded a truant, troublemaker and even a terrorist for it isn't very rewarding at all. The Prom and Graduation was the only real time that Buffy and her work was acknowledged by her peers. In 9 years of service is that really the only reward she gets? I mean Angel, after everything his demon has done gets a reward, he has Shanshu as his beacon of hope...Buffy has nothing of the sort. She has saved countless people, the human race even, but she has also dug the graves of the girls she failed to save. She has climbed out of her own grave.

Fleeting moments of joy in a world of war, death and decisions no-one can bear to make does not make her lucky.

So many people - literally and figuratively, in Sunnydale and all over the world - have demons they are not strong enough to fight. But Buffy is. She can fight back against the horrors that exist.

She was able to HELP people. I think if you're given a gift that allows you to avert Apolocalypses...well, that's pretty great. It's dangerous, and I'm sure a lot of the time Buffy wished it was someone else's responsibility...but while most of the world sits idle, she's able to do something. She has the knowledge and ability to help and save lives.

It's not that people can't fight back, they choose not to.

Giles, Jenny, Willow, Xander, Oz, Cordelia, Anya, Tara, Dawn, Gunn, Wesley, Fred, Andrew, The Potentials, the Initiative, Wood...the list goes on.

All human, all fighting back...because that was the choice they made.

She gained nothing from it? Really?
She gained a lot of meaningful relationships because of her powers, actually. Willow and Xander, Angel, Giles, Spike, Dawn...essentially everyone she met and bonded with was because of her Slayerness. That's pretty damn lucky, if you ask me.

I don't think there was luck playing in any of this. I genuinely believe that destiny played its part here. I think the Scoobies were supposed to meet as they did. The fact that the people who surrouned her were exactly the type of people she needed...imagine if she had been given Wesley as her Watcher in Sunnydale first? Or someone else? Or what about Angel? Born over 200 years ago and yet he falls in love, for the first time with the Slayer of all people? and she loves him back? That is not luck, or Willow? No way was her befriending Buffy just chance...she was supposed to meet her to awaken the magic she held within herself.

Maybe we can never prove one way or another but I would never say that any of the relationships forged by Buffy in Sunnydale were done out of luck or let up to chance.

To say she's gained nothing from being a Slayer...well, I strongly disagree. And to say she isn't lucky...Luck isn't black and white. It comes in many forms, and just because you're lucky enough to get something, doesn't mean there are NO drawbacks. There are positives and negatives to everything in life.

I can't help but feel that when luck really could have played a part in her life it didn't. The man she loves is the one person she cannot have. She finally got the chance to be a regular girl and she finds herself with more responsibilty than she ever had before.

There just doesn't seem to be a let up...anytime there is a glimmer of hope for respite it is snuffed out. That's why I think she isn't lucky.

Maybe where you see luck I see desinty and fate but I just cannot, for the life of me, see Buffy or any slayer for that matter as lucky.

 

[Buffanator]

Of course the Scoobies were not "right". They kicked B outta her own house! - as did DAWN with her little "it's my house, too" speech. Buffy could easily have said "Fine- go on then, you don't want to fall in line? Then all of you can GET OUT OF MY HOUSE." She could have told THEM to leave. Which of them would literally throw her out? She was stronger than any of them; so SHE CHOSE to leave because they didn't see it "her way".

I think Buffy was just plain ol' tired. Tired of the fight, tired of being "The One" and tired of being responsible for everyone around that she cared for. She wanted to "get away" from it all, & this was her "out".

But when you look at it in a broad spectrum... not just at Season 7... but at the series as a whole... Buffy never defeated any super villian without her friends to help her. (And certainly none of the Scoobies could defeat anything without her.) Not The Master, nor Angel, nor the Mayor, Adam (especially Adam!!!), Glory, Dark Willow... and certainly not The First. And yet, without Buffy, the Scoobies would never have been able to defeat anything.

Spike was the only one who 100% supported Buffy. Ever wonder WHY? Was it "his love" for her? I don't think so. I think it was because "she believed in him" - so he, in return, believed in her. And because he DID understand her power. His little speech about her being "The One" wasn't just to cheer her or convince her to keep fighting - he was telling her exactly how he saw her - through HIS EYES. The Scoobies began to doubt her, out of their own fear, I imagine - it's not that they had forgotten all the things she'd done for them... all the times she saved them from certain death. But they were really afraid that THIS TIME was "THE END" of them all. The potentials were all terrified, Giles & Wood were focused on Spike & afraid he would be "the undoing" of Buffy. They didn't trust Buffy's gut instinct on the way to handle this - especially after (Caleb) had kicked their proverbial asses in the vineyard. So it's not that they weren't thinking of all the times in the past that Buffy was doing "exactly this" -they were just scared, and fear tends to make a person's vision very narrow.

So in theory -While I hated that the Scoobies "kicked" her out of her own home, I also realize that she chose to leave. Had she in fact, TOLD THEM to get out - go on your merry way, then! - they had NO WHERE to go. She knew it. And she knew that she could take care of herself if need be.

And that's just the way I see it.

 

[fly on the wall]

Ok, I think I was a little too black and white with what I said up above but I still believe wholeheartedly that being the Slayer has nothing to do with luck and Buffy was anything but lucky.



I think this is a bit too idealistic or romantic a look at what being the Slayer really meant and continues to mean in Season 8. Yes Buffy gets to help people and that in itself is rewarding BUT being branded a truant, troublemaker and even a terrorist for it isn't very rewarding at all. The Prom and Graduation was the only real time that Buffy and her work was acknowledged by her peers. In 9 years of service is that really the only reward she gets? I mean Angel, after everything his demon has done gets a reward, he has Shanshu as his beacon of hope...Buffy has nothing of the sort. She has saved countless people, the human race even, but she has also dug the graves of the girls she failed to save. She has climbed out of her own grave.

Fleeting moments of joy in a world of war, death and decisions no-one can bear to make does not make her lucky.







It's not that people can't fight back, they choose not to.

Giles, Jenny, Willow, Xander, Oz, Cordelia, Anya, Tara, Dawn, Gunn, Wesley, Fred, Andrew, The Potentials, the Initiative, Wood...the list goes on.

All human, all fighting back...because that was the choice they made.



I don't think there was luck playing in any of this. I genuinely believe that destiny played its part here. I think the Scoobies were supposed to meet as they did. The fact that the people who surrouned her were exactly the type of people she needed...imagine if she had been given Wesley as her Watcher in Sunnydale first? Or someone else? Or what about Angel? Born over 200 years ago and yet he falls in love, for the first time with the Slayer of all people? and she loves him back? That is not luck, or Willow? No way was her befriending Buffy just chance...she was supposed to meet her to awaken the magic she held within herself.

Maybe we can never prove one way or another but I would never say that any of the relationships forged by Buffy in Sunnydale were done out of luck or let up to chance.





I can't help but feel that when luck really could have played a part in her life it didn't. The man she loves is the one person she cannot have. She finally got the chance to be a regular girl and she finds herself with more responsibilty than she ever had before.

There just doesn't seem to be a let up...anytime there is a glimmer of hope for respite it is snuffed out. That's why I think she isn't lucky.

Maybe where you see luck I see desinty and fate but I just cannot, for the life of me, see Buffy or any slayer for that matter as lucky.

Well, I've only read the first comic, so I can't make any points about S8.

Maybe my opinion is the way it is because I don't believe in fate/destiny. I do believe in luck. I DO think things happened to Buffy by chance, for better or for worse.

I think the whole "It's my destiny" concept of being the Slayer was meant to be taken loosely. Buffy was chosen (in a, I believe, relatively random fashion) and so yes, it was then her job, or destiny, to fight evil. But she could still GO AGAINST that destiny, as Faith did when she went rogue. In fact, Faith is a prime example of why I think this way. If being a Slayer = destiny...Faith was destined to reject her Slayer duties? That doesn't make much sense. I think life is a series of random events, and life in the Buffyverse isn't an exception to this belief.

And no, I don't think I'm being overly romantic about the Slayer gig. I've admitted that at times, it was horrible. At times, I'm sure Buffy wanted to give it up. But had she actually been given that choice, I don't think she ever would have. And there's a reason for that. A pretty romantic reason, if you ask me. She wants to help people. Being the Slayer allows her to help people. What is it that she said to Angel? "Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's everyday." She was both willing AND able to be strong. Which again, since I don't believe in fate, was pretty lucky.

I also disagree that everyone that couldn't fight CHOSE not to fight. Lots of people killed in alleys by vampires just hadn't known they existed. You can't tell me that random people dragged into the dark and bitten COULD have fought back, if they really wanted to. Not everyone had the knowledge, or the physical strength at the time of gaining knowledge that it took to fight back.

Life is hard. Life is a war. And yes, fleeting moments of joy do make you lucky. Some people don't have the comforts, relationships, and security in the midst of craziness that Buffy has. I guess that I look at her life as a metaphor for most peoples' lives.

 

[Kean]

Well, I've only read the first comic, so I can't make any points about S8.

Maybe my opinion is the way it is because I don't believe in fate/destiny. I do believe in luck. I DO think things happened to Buffy by chance, for better or for worse.

I think the whole "It's my destiny" concept of being the Slayer was meant to be taken loosely. Buffy was chosen (in a, I believe, relatively random fashion) and so yes, it was then her job, or destiny, to fight evil. But she could still GO AGAINST that destiny, as Faith did when she went rogue. In fact, Faith is a prime example of why I think this way. If being a Slayer = destiny...Faith was destined to reject her Slayer duties? That doesn't make much sense. I think life is a series of random events, and life in the Buffyverse isn't an exception to this belief.

And no, I don't think I'm being overly romantic about the Slayer gig. I've admitted that at times, it was horrible. At times, I'm sure Buffy wanted to give it up. But had she actually been given that choice, I don't think she ever would have. And there's a reason for that. A pretty romantic reason, if you ask me. She wants to help people. Being the Slayer allows her to help people. What is it that she said to Angel? "Strong is fighting. It's hard and it's painful and it's everyday." She was both willing AND able to be strong. Which again, since I don't believe in fate, was pretty lucky.

I also disagree that everyone that couldn't fight CHOSE not to fight. Lots of people killed in alleys by vampires just hadn't known they existed. You can't tell me that random people dragged into the dark and bitten COULD have fought back, if they really wanted to. Not everyone had the knowledge, or the physical strength at the time of gaining knowledge that it took to fight back.

Life is hard. Life is a war. And yes, fleeting moments of joy do make you lucky. Some people don't have the comforts, relationships, and security in the midst of craziness that Buffy has. I guess that I look at her life as a metaphor for most peoples' lives.

I think that really is where we clash because I do believe in karma and fate and a higher purpose. I don't think your life is a fixed point but I do think that there are things that happen to you that were meant to be and you kinda work of that. Whether they are good or bad.

I also see Buffy and her life as a methaphor for life in general. Where as you see a girl using her luck as best she can, I see a girl doing her best without luck on her side.

Those fundamental differences in our beliefs aren't gona change but I think we basically believe the same thing but for drastically different reasons lol

🙂

 

[fly on the wall]

^ Yeah 🙂 It also makes sense that Anya shares this "Buffy was lucky" belief. After Xander left her, she was feeling pretty cynical. She probably couldn't see things having a bigger meaning...everything probably seemed really random and meaningless to her. Not to say that believing in luck over fate is cynical, but it's definitely less optimistic than the other way around.

 

[Zombierella]

The scoobies, and the potentials listened to eachother and voted to kick Buffy out of her own home. Which is dead wrong. If it weren't for Buffy helping to keep the potentials safe, They all would have been dead.

Secondly, Look where it got them. They voted that Faith take over the mission. Look what happened. Faith and the potentials got ambushed by Ubervamps and the bomb went off and more potentials died. Faiths plan was even more wreckless than Buffy's. In the end, It was Buffy who ended up beating Caleb to the Scythe. Without the Scythe Willow wouldn't have been able to use her powers to give the potentials the power of the slayer. Buffy's power.

This episode just proves like we've known all along that no matter how many friends she has, The slayer is always alone. Buffy is one person. One girl. She was able to complete the task without being harmed. Yet Faith and the potentials completed what? - Nothing. The only thing they accomplished was getting more potentials killed.

I think the scoobies and the potentials acted irrationally and ungratefully. Buffy put HER life on the line to save them. I was especially pissed off at Dawn. Buffy died for Dawn and this is how she repays her. What a way to show your graditute!

I was also pissed at Giles,Xander,and Willow. How many times has Buffy saved their lives? How many times has she put her life on the line for them? More than they can count. They turned their backs on her..and they didn't even think twice about it.

I agree what was said earlier in this discussion. Buffy should have talked to the scoobies and Faith in private and they should have come to a decision together. Not until then should she have told the potentials what the plan was.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I think everyone is that room was weaker then Buffy. They were thinking emotionally but she was thinking more logically. In that situation Buffy was right and they just cant face the truth. Maybe we shouldnt blame them too. They were just potentials and everyting was too much for them. And for the gang, probably it was the most difficult apocalypse for years. They are scared too.

 

[ukkid09]

But Buffy was right all the long 🙂

 

[neoolong]

Why does that matter? Buffy was right the first time too, and look where that ended up. If Caleb and the Bringers had been packing better weapons, Buffy wouldn't have been able to get the Scythe. Her assault plan was heavily flawed, both times. Being right doesn't mean that what she ended up doing was right.

Buffy was in no way prepared to actually be a leader in the military sense. That Faith was also not in no way invalidates that Buffy was also not qualified. They should have called for help, but I suppose the writers wanted some thematic thing about girl power so calling in people that could help would have gone against that.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think the whole "It's my destiny" concept of being the Slayer was meant to be taken loosely. Buffy was chosen (in a, I believe, relatively random fashion) and so yes, it was then her job, or destiny, to fight evil.

Buffy was "chosen", due to a spell cast by three shamans over a thousand years ago. I don't see how that can be construed as "destiny". Nor do I believe that because a thousand year-old spell gave her the power and strength to fight demons, mean that it was her job to do so. That sounds like crap to me, and I cannot believe that Joss Whedon pushed this nonsense.


As for the Scoobies decision to kick Buffy out of the house . . . they were both right and wrong. They had every right to reject Buffy's authority. There was no law that stated they had to do everything she said. If she was able to reject the Watcher's Council, because she found their authority questionable, then the Scoobies and the Potentials and the right to do the same to Buffy, since they found her authority questionable.

However . . . they had no right to kick her out of the house. It was her house. If they didn't want to follow Buffy, they should have left. And Buffy should not have allowed them to kick her out of her own home.

 

[Crashing Doors]

I don't even know if I can understand Xander's decision. I mean, I guess it makes sense since he lost his eye, but then again he knew he was physically powerless against Caleb, he probably shouldn't have went into battle... It's hard to blame Buffy for that.

This scene is hard to watch though, especially when Dawn (who I don't really like, but still) tells Buffy to go--and for Faith, who tried to murder Joyce. You gotta assume that in Dawn's memory, Dawn was with Joyce when Faith escaped and went crazy in season 4.

Anyway I agree with some of what white avenger said. Buffy shouldn't have just came out in to the entire group and made the plans, without consulting the Scooby Gang first. The way Buffy did it, she just set herself up for humiliation.

Still it's hard to judge a leader in this kind of a situation. You don't make the decision, you're potentially screwed. You make the decision, you're potentially screwed. Tough shoes to fill, but I hate the scene regardless.

 

[neoolong]

Buffy's the one that told Xander to get the potentials out of there. It didn't seem to bother he so much when Spike told her that they were leaving, leaving behind the rest of the group. So, if he shouldn't have been there to begin with, despite having more combat experience than the potentials, she shouldn't have told him to be the one to make sure everyone else got out okay, given the odds and everything.

Of course, Buffy's plans were tactically flawed to begin with, and they only succeeded because The First's minions happened to be oddly ill-equipped to handle them in a decisive way. Funny thing is isn't that she doesn't make decisions, it's that she consistently made poor ones, it's pure writer's fiat that things actually turned out okay.

 

[caitaintdead]

However . . . they had no right to kick her out of the house. It was her house. If they didn't want to follow Buffy, they should have left. And Buffy should not have allowed them to kick her out of her own home.

Especially when you consider that it was the same friends that wouldn't help her pay the household bills just months before!

Buffy had to work at doublemeat palace to afford to pay the mortgage and no one helped her out(except Giles). Seems completely messed up they should throw her out.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I don't even know if I can understand Xander's decision. I mean, I guess it makes sense since he lost his eye, but then again he knew he was physically powerless against Caleb, he probably shouldn't have went into battle... It's hard to blame Buffy for that.

How would Xander or anyone else would have known that? No one knew that the First Evil gave Caleb super strength, before they had attacked the vineyard. And I cannot see how they could have found out before confronting him.

 

[Crashing Doors]

Good point--I got my timeline mixed up. They knew about the Bringers though, so that should have tipped them off a little bit.

Even still, it wasn't entirely Buffy's fault, at least not to the point the gang had the right to kick her out. Perhaps she could have done some recon, but wouldn't the potentials and the Scoobies have had the right to choose not to go into the unknown? I still feel like they took advantage of Buffy and just discarded her when something bad (albeit really bad) happened. There was poor judgment maybe on Buffy's part, but kicking her out was just as bad a decision.

Especially giving the reins to Faith of all people. She's a slayer, sure, but what leadership skills does she have? If they had at least given Giles the "general" role, or even Wood, with Faith being their #1 soldier or whatever... but to oust Buffy and let a newly escaped prisoner have control of girls who have no real experience? Sheeesh.

 

[Tasha]

Dawn is a wee bitch in this ep, i wanted to slap her when she told Buffy she wasn't wanted.
"Then you can't stay here. Buffy, I love you, but you were right. We have to be together on this. You can't be a part of it. So I need you to leave. I'm sorry, but this is my house, too."

poor Buff, she should of just kicked thm out tha house herself!:tongue2:

 

[Crashing Doors]

Yeah, as much as Dawn could annoy me at times, as much as I didn't want to care about her opinion, that was a really low blow. I really felt terrible for Buffy when her own sister would say something like that.

 

[white avenger]

The thing that I have always thought was missing in this entire section of the season, from the advent of Caleb's character through his ultimate defeat, is that there was never a scene in which the Scoobies and the Potentials formally came to Buffy, admitted that they had been wrong, and asked her to resume her rightful role as leader of the group. The closest we ever got was one Potential asking, "Are you back, or what?" and Faith finally admitting, to herself as well as Buffy, that she had always envied and been jealous of everything that she had, and that, finally, she understood the load that Buffy had been carrying for so long. (That scene gave me real hope that Buffy and Faith would finally bury the hatchet and become the kind of friends that they always should have been).

Buffy had been betrayed by the people who she trusted most in the world, her closest friends and even her own sister. She had been literally thrown out of her own home, and for no reason whatsoever other than doing the job that she had been born to do. Granted, some of the Potentials had been injured or killed. Xander had lost an eye. Did not one person there stop to consider the fact that, without her almost single handed protection, they would all, Potentials, Scoobies, Watcher, even the so-called "free lance demon fighter," have been dead long before that point? Couldn't they have had just one little "We were wrong, you were right, please forgive us, please be our leader again." moment? Buffy deserved that, at the very least. She deserved the opportunity, although she would never actually do such a thing, of telling them that they could all line up and, one by one, kiss her rosy red a**, after which she and Spike would climb on his motorcycle and head for the hills. (Just imagine Angel coming rolling into town, looking to play the big hero, and instead getting stuck having to help Faith sort out the mess. Now, THAT would have been an interesting episode!)

 

[satam55]

I just watched this episode for the 1st time ever hours ago. I really wanted to slap the hell outta those 2 wannabe slayers, Kennedy and Rona. Both them are just amateurs with no experience who will probably never become slayers and should have no say what so ever. I have to applaud Buffy for not slapping the hell out of both of them.


I find it ridiculous that the Scoobies, with everything they been through over the years would suddenly turn on Buffy now. If the Scoobies wanted to turn on Buffy, the should have sided with Giles in "The Gift" about killing Dawn. I wondered what would have happened if Spike was there?

 

[neoolong]

Uh, Buffy made the wrong tactical decisions? That's why the Scoobies turned on her. It's a separate situation than the one about Dawn, which was more of a "if absolutely necessary" contingency than how to structure a battleplan. The fact that Buffy was right in that Caleb had something of hers that was important would be a moot point if Buffy's battleplan got everyone killed, which is about halfway what happened anyway.

If Caleb and his forces had been a little more prepared/armed then Buffy and the team she led down there would all be dead. But, there's no way for Buffy to have known that prior.