Empty Places...Were the Scoobies right?

this episode always succeeds on making me sooo angry
I just think Buffy was right.
I just can't see what was going through everybody else's heads, i can sympathise with everything that happened to them (xander losing his eye, girls dying and such) but i can't see why they wouldn't think it was a good idea, or at least hear buffy out and figure something out between them.

The one thing that really gets me angry, is Dawn. Dawn is annoying. She wines and clings and does bad stuff and i don't like her. Then she kicks Buffy out, being all this is my house too. First of all, it wasn't really. If you were living with your parents as child it would technically be your parents house, just cause buffy's her sister doesn't change it. And dawn acts as if she has some say, as if her opinions important, when really, she's good for nothing, she can't help and makes stupid decisions.
Ok...sorry, that kinda turned into a rant. But i'm strongly opinionated about this, i can babble for like and hour straight no all th reasons why it's so stupid and how buffy was right.
Oh yeah, Giles is just so mean. He's supposed to support her, and if she makes bad decisions, discuss it with her or guide her or something, not kick her out!
Ok....i'll stop before this comes way too boring
Stopping now...
 
I don't think anyone was necessarily 'right' to kick Buffy out but I think it kind of needed to happen. Everything was a mess and what Buffy was asking of everyone was too soon, regardless of whether she was correct or not.
I also think that for a long time Buffy had been storming around with a severe superiority complex and everyone had just grown tired of her shit. At least, that's how I always interpreted part of the group's reasoning.
 
Just to add this, from the shooting script, to the converstaion. (this is only a segment. The whole thing can be found at http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/141_scri.html

BUFFY
I've gotten you this far.

XANDER
(quietly)
Not without a price.

BUFFY
Xander...

XANDER
We follow you without question. Even
when you have no idea what you're
doing. Even when you get mad at us
for not working hard enough at a plan
which doesn't exist, because you
don't know what you're doing. We
keep following you, even then.
(beat)
And we keep paying the price.

BUFFY
(quiet)
Xander. I've paid the price, too,
sometimes.

(That hangs in the air for a moment.)


GILES
So how high does the price have to go
before you start saying your way
isn't right?

BUFFY
I still think attacking Caleb's power
base could end this --

GILES
Yes. You. Think. But when you act
alone --

BUFFY
Is that really something you want to
get into? 'Cause we can talk about
Spike. Or Ben.

GILES
If I acted rashly, it was to protect
you. Were you trying to protect
Annabelle? Or Chloe?

BUFFY
Stop it.

GILES
(more intense)
Or Molly? Or Xander? And it goes
even further back than that, doesn't
it?

BUFFY
Giles.

GILES
(seething)
You act alone, and people get hurt,
right? People like Jenny

BUFFY
Goddamn you, stop!!

Buffy SWEEPS a vase (maybe something vaguely African, from Joyce's gallery) off the end table. It SMASHES to the floor. Giles and Buffy stare at each other for a beat.


GILES
(calmly)
Do you see? You are not in the best
place you have ever been. You're too
raw. You need to take a break.

BUFFY
I am still responsible for this
group. I am still in charge here.

RONA
And why is that, exactly?

BUFFY
Because I'm the Slayer.

RONA
And isn't Faith a Slayer, too?

(Everyone turns to Faith, who seems startled.)


FAITH
Ka-wha? Whoa, whoa, whoa, so not
what I meant, I'm not the in-charge
chick, I just think B here needs to
chill out for a bit, take a siesta
maybe, but I'm not the one you want.
But no one's turning away.


KENNEDY
Maybe we need a vote. To see who
wants Faith to have a turn in charge.
BUFFY
Listen. You don't wanna do this.
(to Willow and Xander)
Guys, tell them. This is a mistake.

Total silence.


BUFFY (cont'd)
Guys?
(Willow and Xander not answering.)


BUFFY (cont'd)
I don't... this isn't happening.

WILLOW
You need to rest.

(She looks at Xander. Maybe not able to finish this. He nods to her.)


WILLOW (cont'd)
(barely able to say
it)
So maybe we should let someone else
take the wheel until you do.

XANDER
Maybe it's not such a terrible idea.
Letting Faith handle things. Letting
her be the Slayer.

(Faith is shocked -- she didn't want this. Buffy just stares at Willow and Xander. Not sure this is real.)


BUFFY
Guys. We have a chance to end this.
All of us. I can't just stay here
and watch Faith lead you off into
some disaster.
Dawn, silent till now, approaches Buffy and tenderly KISSES her on the cheek.


DAWN
Then you can't stay here.

(Buffy -- and everyone -- is shocked.)


DAWN (cont'd)
Look, I love you, but you can't be a
part of this. You can't be here. I
don't think... I don't think you can
face this at all. This one you have
to sit out.

(Buffy is utterly devastated. The final betrayal.)


DAWN (cont'd)
I'm sorry. It's my house, too.
Either you let Faith handle things...
or you have to leave.

(Standoff. Buffy looks at Dawn, a little shocked. Looks to Willow and Xander and Giles... looks at the group. They're not backing down. Not one of them.)

Buffy turns and walks out the front door.

EXT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - FRONT PORCH - CONTINUOUS

Buffy walks out of the house, down the steps and into the street.

The town is deserted, doors left open, belongings that didn't fit in cars strewn about. Everyone's left. And she's totally, utterly alone.

She takes one last look at her house, the place that is no longer hers, then she turns and walks off into the night.

I know it's shooting script so it doesn't really count as such but i do think the edited version (what we got on in the final version on screen) really did an injustice to Dawn and the Scoobs. In this version you can see that they were acting out of care and concern for Buffy. But the edit makes them look like selfish gits.
 
I know it's shooting script so it doesn't really count as such but i do think the edited version (what we got on in the final version on screen) really did an injustice to Dawn and the Scoobs. In this version you can see that they were acting out of care and concern for Buffy. But the edit makes them look like selfish gits.

Also, in the edited version, there was a shot of Xander and Willow looking hurt when Giles confirms that Buffy doesn't trust them. That should have been shown on TV.

The whole scene is awful because it appears as if the writers wanted to force us to side with Buffy. Which makes me dislike it even more. It was bad writing and editing.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
[No message]
i HATED that scene, i still do.
there's no legitimate reasoning behind it, well in some cases, but in those special cases it's not something you would completely turn your back on your friends for, especially after she's done so much. I SO wish she had retaliated somehow, i mean, it just seems stupid to me that she just comes back and helps them again. I also wish Spike had gone further with the making them feel bad, like if he had done a massive ramble which i always do when someone brings up this topic, and made them feel really bad and make them do something to fix it, rather then it just being passed over. There should've been more reprecussions!
🙁 No i'm seriously in need of punching something. The episode never fails to make me agro!
But now i feel slightly better cause i vented 🙂
 
G
Grey Ghost
[No message]
Also, in the edited version, there was a shot of Xander and Willow looking hurt when Giles confirms that Buffy doesn't trust them. That should have been shown on TV.

The whole scene is awful because it appears as if the writers wanted to force us to side with Buffy. Which makes me dislike it even more. It was bad writing and editing.


I thought it was a well done scene and a sign of matters coming to a head between Buffy and the others. It reminded me of the time when Spike managed to temporarily break up the Scoobies back in S4.
 
I thought it was a well done scene and a sign of matters coming to a head between Buffy and the others. It reminded me of the time when Spike managed to temporarily break up the Scoobies back in S4.

I think the scene screamed too "Look at the awful Scoobies kicking Buffy out" without showing us how conflicted and torn they feel about it. It was plain Scoobies-bashing scene for my taste. I don't mind the Scoobies and Buffy having a fight, they've already done this before, but the Scoobies, or some of them, were always being shown as sympathatic. That's good writing, IMO.
 
I feel that the scoobies and the potentials were wrong to kick Buffy out of her own house. What right did they have?

Also the way it was orchestrated was out of order. Kennedy got right on my nerves, the way she kept interjecting with her Willow arse kissing. The phrase "The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence", springs to mind.

Most of them never knew Buffy,yet they felt they had the right to judge her.

Also, i was dissapointed with the core of the group.

Xander was supposed to be her confident, her loyal steed. Yet he dropped her like a bad habit when everyone else did.

Willow was her friend, her conscience, and her firepower. Yet she chose to side with those who conspired against her.

Giles was the one person she thought would be on her side. He was her safety net, and her guide. Yet he would not give her his protection when she needed it most.

Spike, as always, was there with words of encouragement. He, the monster who tried to kill her on many occasions, was the only one who stood by her.

I'm glad everyone realised the mistake they made, and that Buffy was there, as always, to save the day.
 
I feel that the scoobies and the potentials were wrong to kick Buffy out of her own house. What right did they have?

Also the way it was orchestrated was out of order. Kennedy got right on my nerves, the way she kept interjecting with her Willow arse kissing. The phrase "The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence", springs to mind.

Most of them never knew Buffy,yet they felt they had the right to judge her.

Also, i was dissapointed with the core of the group.

Xander was supposed to be her confident, her loyal steed. Yet he dropped her like a bad habit when everyone else did.

Willow was her friend, her conscience, and her firepower. Yet she chose to side with those who conspired against her.

Giles was the one person she thought would be on her side. He was her safety net, and her guide. Yet he would not give her his protection when she needed it most.

Spike, as always, was there with words of encouragement. He, the monster who tried to kill her on many occasions, was the only one who stood by her.

I'm glad everyone realised the mistake they made, and that Buffy was there, as always, to save the day.

I agree with you on Kennedy, she was pretty much annoying every time she opened her mouth.

However, after watching the other episodes leading up to this point recently, I begin more and more to understand the position of the other Scoobies. I found myself beginning to dislike the person that Buffy had become more and more and found her to be largely selfish and hypocritical, mainly from 'Dirty Girls' onwards.

To some extent, I think that there was a subconscious, maybe even at times, conscious, tension between Xander and Buffy regarding what happened to him, and I think that all of them, including Willow felt some kind of animosity towards how much attention Spike was given and how important his opinion was, over theirs.

Giles, as far as I'm concerned, owed Buffy nada at this point. she had already made her feelings towards him perfectly clear. She'd 'learnt all he had to teach her' by this point, so why should he put himself out there for someone who had shown him absolutely no respect, nor took on board any of his advice? Especially as Giles was telling her all along that Caleb was luring her into a trap by saying he had something of hers, in which he was correct...

Spike was always going to side with Buffy, I don't personally think it says much about him personally or suggests anything about loyalty and integrity, he was always going to be Buffy's lapdog, which is what I think he became by this point. By season seven, I think he lost so much of what made him a likeable character in the earlier seasons.

So, as much as it is an uncomfortable scene to watch and I obviously wouldn't go as far as to say they were right for doing it, but I think they had their reasons.
 
I agree with you on Kennedy, she was pretty much annoying every time she opened her mouth.

However, after watching the other episodes leading up to this point recently, I begin more and more to understand the position of the other Scoobies. I found myself beginning to dislike the person that Buffy had become more and more and found her to be largely selfish and hypocritical, mainly from 'Dirty Girls' onwards.

To some extent, I think that there was a subconscious, maybe even at times, conscious, tension between Xander and Buffy regarding what happened to him, and I think that all of them, including Willow felt some kind of animosity towards how much attention Spike was given and how important his opinion was, over theirs.

Giles, as far as I'm concerned, owed Buffy nada at this point. she had already made her feelings towards him perfectly clear. She'd 'learnt all he had to teach her' by this point, so why should he put himself out there for someone who had shown him absolutely no respect, nor took on board any of his advice? Especially as Giles was telling her all along that Caleb was luring her into a trap by saying he had something of hers, in which he was correct...

Spike was always going to side with Buffy, I don't personally think it says much about him personally or suggests anything about loyalty and integrity, he was always going to be Buffy's lapdog, which is what I think he became by this point. By season seven, I think he lost so much of what made him a likeable character in the earlier seasons.

So, as much as it is an uncomfortable scene to watch and I obviously wouldn't go as far as to say they were right for doing it, but I think they had their reasons.

I see where your coming from,she was getting a bit big for her boots. But they could have shown a little sympathy towards the issue.

Buffy kept saying "Guys this is the plan, i'm still the one in charge", which is a bit self important, but they handled it wrong, imo.

It also looked like the Buffy and Spike show, not Buffy The Vampire Slayer, so i agree with you on that bit, lol.
 
I see where your coming from,she was getting a bit big for her boots. But they could have shown a little sympathy towards the issue.

Buffy kept saying "Guys this is the plan, i'm still the one in charge", which is a bit self important, but they handled it wrong, imo.

It also looked like the Buffy and Spike show, not Buffy The Vampire Slayer, so i agree with you on that bit, lol.

I agree, they should have taken her to one side and discussed it with her as the Core Four, with no one else there to jump on the wagon and slate her, which is what happened in that situation.
But I do think she needed a good talking to 😛
 
I agree. I think Buffy needed it. She was becoming more superior and thinking with one head -hers- when the Scoobies were always about team work. Sometimes Xander finds the solution, sometimes Willow, sometimes Giles, it's not always Buffy who gets it right.

Also, when Dawn kicked her out, she was doing it as a tough love thing, witness her tears afterwards. It was hard on her to kick Buffy out, but knew her sister needed it.
 
F
Fredsicle
May I say, I love your name! It's very catchy.
C
captain peroxide
Sounds like a lovely, fruity drink:)Very catchy
I agree. I think Buffy needed it. She was becoming more superior and thinking with one head -hers- when the Scoobies were always about team work. Sometimes Xander finds the solution, sometimes Willow, sometimes Giles, it's not always Buffy who gets it right.

Also, when Dawn kicked her out, she was doing it as a tough love thing, witness her tears afterwards. It was hard on her to kick Buffy out, but knew her sister needed it.

I totally agree. I felt what Dawn was feeling... Buffy was getting too high and mighty and she needed a dose of reality to make her realize that these people should have a say, too... After all she wasn't the only one risking her life to save the world.
 
I thought it was extremely rude and careless of them to do something like that.
You can't kick a slayer out of her own house!
 
Expressing my opinion on the last scene of "Empty Places", and I fear that I once again, seem to be in the minority on this issue.

First of all, I don't believe that anybody "forced Buffy out" of her home...she did that on her own just fine. Her behaviour in that season and especially in this episode has done nothing, absolutely nothing to earn all the praise given to her by none other than Xander only a week or so before this episode. She had been reckless, callous, hard, cold and unfeeling towards not only the slayers in training, but towards her friends and Giles as well. She has shut everyone out thinking about nothing but the kill, and the mission.

Now maybe it's because she was afraid to grow too close to the slayers in training, lest something happen to them. Perhaps she was cracking under the pressure of having total and absolute leadership being forced upon her the moment Giles walked through the door and declared her a general. Her idea that what they needed was at the vinyard wasn't crazy. In fact, she was right. The problem wasn't her thoughts, it was not only her plan of attack now, but the previous plan that had them all injured so badly.

She was reckless last time. In this, she and Faith seemed to have switched places entirely. Before, it was always Buffy who stopped to think before acting, favouring caution over just jumping in. Now, she seems to be the one wanting to hop into the sewer, throwing caution to the wind as to how many vampires may or may not be down there and Faith ironically has learned too much in her own struggles to believe that to be a viable way to live and fight anymore and she speaks her mind on it.

I have heard others shooting Faith down for voicing her opinions and undermining Buffy's authority, but honestly I don't think she did. Buffy had been undermining her own authority for quite some time. A commander you care about is a commander you are going to fight that much harder and more willingly for. Buffy had barely bothered to learn their names, whereas Faith took the time to not only get to know them, but to help them with their concerns, their fears and to teach them to enjoy what they might be chosen to do one day.

Buffy can't get past what happened between her and Faith however. In this respect Faith is again proving the bigger person, willing to not only forget what happened between them, but to not fight back with Buffy, even when she lashed out and hit her. She denies being worried for the slayer's health and safety to Wood, but it's clear that she does. She is in fact the last one to speak up in favour of Buffy in the room, even when everyone else has basically stated they won't follow her plan. Buffy chooses to ignore this and lashes out at her, bringing up the only thing she can; her past.

Other ways she handled it badly? Tons. Bringing up the "I've done this for seven years and always won" argument is tired and frankly not very true. By saying that she has always won, she is clearly stating that she has never lost and that isn't true. She has lost before....maybe not the battle, but in some cases things far more precious. Her lover, her friends, herself.

Willow turning against her: Well she didn't really. She expressed her thoughts and her concerns quite sympathetically actually. All she said was that she wasn't sure about Buffy's judgement, which I can completely understand. She just watched her best friend since kindergarten get his eye ruthlessly ripped out by a seemingly invincible foe and the only reason it happened is because Buffy told them to 'fall in line' and they listened. Now sheis asking them to do it again and it's only natural that Willow be concerned about the clarity of her judgement. This time it was an eye.....next time it may be something even more permanent.

Xander?: Well personally I think his reason was the most justifiable. I have heard people argue "well he signed on for this and it was only an eye, what's he bitching about" and to that I say EVERYTHING. Buffy has to do this. She was chosen. It is her DUTY. Xander on the other hand offerred his help and risked himself time and time again simply because he was a good person and a good friend. He didn't have to fight for evil....he could have just run and hid. But he didn't...because he is the heart, he stayed and fought. It didn't make him just special...it made him extraordinary. He had risked his life, and so far has remained unscathed, physically at least. Why? Partially because he is a fighter, partially because good is supposed to triumph over evil, partially because of sheer luck, but MOSTLY because he trusted Buffy to lead them and she trusted them to help. That trust had been shattered...not by Caleb or any other villain, but by Buffy herself.

In terms of Xander all I was saying was that he had every, if not the most right to protest Buffy's "plan". He has freely risked his life time and time again because he believed that ultimately Buffy could be the one to protect them and save the day. He once said "no problem, you find them, slay them and we party." Xander may be part of the team, but he is also the most mortal, the most vulernable, the most human. Everyone else seemingly has "superpowers", while he remains simply a good guy trying to help. Those against Xander's actions seem to think he is obligated to follow her simply because he has volunteered his time rather than been chosen for it. He signed on and these are the consequences seem to be the popular theory...I say that's ridiculous! He signed on....yes...voluntarily he risks his life, and gets massively injured in the process because of an incompetantly thought out and executed plan by Buffy. Now she proposes doing it yet again and he is automatically expected to agree with it simply on the basis of the argument of "I've gotten you through things before?" No, THEY as a team have gotten through things before. She is cutting everyone out, relegating them to being inferior to her simply because they aren't the slayer. Her high and mighty attitude of "I have been doing this for seven years and my sacrifices have been more than yours" are totally unfounded. They have all sacrificed, and until now they have gotten through it all right.

Until now. It's on wonder that Xander is hesitant about going into it again. This is the first real injury, the first real physically crippling loss. It's more than just the loss of his eye, it's the loss of his sense of everything working out because they have Buffy on their team. In fact, I don't believe they do have Buffy anymore. All they have is the slayer and although Xander has always been willing to follow Buffy into battle, the slayer is someone he can't trust. No friends. Just the kill. The slayer is alone. Xander knows this. Do I blame him for not wanting to follow Buffy's plan? No. In fact, his side is the one I can most identify with. He gave her
his help and his life willingly and she treated it as callously as she treated the lives of the slayers in training, whose names she never even bothered to learn. Xander should stay put. He doesn't owe her a thing anymore.

Dawn?: Well Dawn acted in my opinion, the most maturely that she has acted in her entire time on the show. Nobody forced Buffy out, but when Buffy finally took her last and very weak attempt to regain her control over the situation, Dawn drove the final and irrefutable point home. If she can't be together with the others no matter who is leading them, SHE CAN'T STAY THERE. The people fighting this battle need to know they can trust and rely on one another and nobody trusts Buffy to do that. It's her fault, she did it to herself and Dawn gently, but firmly tells her that this is her house as well (ignoring the legal issues of the situation, she is entirely right) and that Buffy can't stay if she can't work with them. Leaving was Buffy's choice. It was petty and petulant of her, but it was her choice. Although it killed Dawn, she took her stand and I am incredibly proud of her for it. The last thing she wanted was for Buffy to go, and she drove that home when she turned on Rhona afterwards telling her through tears of heartbreak and fury to "shut her mouth" when she called Buffy a witch.

The final scene in the episode however, redeemed Buffy, at least a little in my eyes. While the stunt she pulled inside reeked of desperation, immaturity and petty jealousies, when Faith exited the house, Buffy was more than willing to put all that aside when she realized that she had lost her will to control the team and luckily their lives were more important to her than who was in control. Instead of screaming and ranting at Faith about how she has "taken yet another thing away from her", Buffy simply pleads with Faith for her not to be afraid to lead them. She asks her to protect them and to keep them safe, warning her that it was only going to get harder and passing the torch that she has been carrying so heavily for seven years by saying "their lives are yours". It was a glimpse back into the old Buffy, the true Buffy, the one who cared only about getting her friends through the fight with no thought for herself. It was the Buffy who sacrificed herself to save her sister and indeed the world. It was the Buffy I loved and it was the Buffy I would have followed in a heartbeat as would the others.

Unfortunately nobody witnessed this act, and Faith, knowing that convincing Buffy to stay would be pointless, opted instead to nod, accept the responsibility, and silently go back into the house. Buffy then walks away, tears running down her face, entirely alone. It's sad, but not as sad as the knowledge that she did this herself...that it was her own fault this occurred.
 
I
InsaneMystic
excellent post... ESPECIALLY the part about Dawn!
S
sosa lola
Awesome post. You said everything I wanted to say, but way, way better.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Excellent post. Kudos.
That scene is so stupid. I have to admit, a cried a little. I mean, I would never do that to her.I was surprised because of Xander and Willow. They were friends, best friends from the begining, she saved their lifes too many times, died to save the world, and now they are going to left her? So stupid.
 
Honestly, I feel like I can't really comment on this from a subjective point of view due to how much I love Buffy. See, when a character I love suffers an injustice, I automatically get all over-protective. That's how I get in this scene, everytime I watch it. Regardless if she deserved it, I feel bad for her in this scene because she's truly hurting and has been betrayed. I thought she was very gracious towards Faith when she came out to see if she was OK. Despite how much Buffy wanted to lead, she gave it up gracefully. That takes only the kind of heart that Buffy has.

So, were they right in kicking her out? Hard to say. I just wish it hadn't come to that.
 
PrincessBuffy16
PrincessBuffy16
Me too. I mean I love Buffy, and I'm for sure over-protective. I'm always on her side and I can find an excuse for all things she does :)
Basically Buffy was right, i will trust her..lol 😉! But her friends didnt lol 😉!
 
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