Empty Places...Were the Scoobies right?

[ubi4soft]

The hypocrisy of the Scoobies is beyond limit. They pulled Buffy out of Heaven because they missed her and now reject her. She died for her sister and now Dawn kicks Buffy out of her house.

The truth is the scene stinks of miss-communication, could be dealt better, OOC lines from both parts, bad writing many core four fans detest the episode, horrible

 

[ukkid09]

The hypocrisy of the Scoobies is beyond limit. They pulled Buffy out of Heaven because they missed her and now reject her. She died for her sister and now Dawn kicks Buffy out of her house.

The truth is the scene stinks of miss-communication, could be dealt better, OOC lines from both parts, bad writing many core four fans detest the episode, horrible

Thats want i hate when Buffy willingly jumped of a divne board to save her and the WORLD,Her friends should listen to her and respect her thoughts, i do agree if you dont agree speak up but that scene was harsh.If their were victorious and Xander didnt have his eye out i think their have different thought and opinion about Buffy solutions.

And i love how Faith was wrong and Buffy was right lol.

 

[Wesley]

I am double posting my thoughts because it probably pertains here too. I have to say I am completely with the Scoobies on this one. How is it that Buffy thinks it's a good idea to act on her own thoughts alone? The whole point of Buffy The Vampire Slayer is that the only reason she is unique and better than other Slayers is that she is not a loner who does whatever it takes, she is a person with friends and without them she would have been dead long ago. For instance:

S1 - Xander gives her mouth to mouth or she dies.
S2 - Willow re-ensouls Angel.
S3 - Cordelia and Angel lead the students, Giles and Xander nuke the Mayor.
S4 - Willow, Xander, and Giles all give her their power to defeat ADAM.
S5 - Willow, Spike, Anya, Giles, Xander, Tara all charge Glory to help her.
S6 - Buffy fails, Xander succeeds.

So all of a sudden in Season 7 now Buffy is the ONLY one capable of making the 'tough decisions'? I call serious foul on that one. She was in over her head, she was angry at herself for being taken in by the First Evil, she was acting out of emotion.

I'm not saying she should have taken a vote, but she has at her disposal, three (or more) people who are honest to God heroes. Xander, Willow and Giles are just as much apart of this as she was and for her to not consult them or even to ask their opinion was a sign of her immense recklessness and emotionality.

She was in the wrong, I firmly believe that. Not only that but Xander, the one most loyal person ever in her entire life who has never and will never leave her, betray her, or do anything but love her believed it. That's how you know she was wrong.

 

[Flannen]

Basically Buffy was right, i will trust her..lol 😉! But her friends didnt lol 😉!

Buffy's not always right you know, not as far as everyone is concerned. I don't think she was, I think she completely deserved to be knocked down a peg or two and I'm glad they did.

Her friends didn't trust her for very, very good reasons. It would take so much for those guys not to go with Buffy, they didn't do it to be horrible, they had their reasons whether or not you agree with them is another matter.

 

[ukkid09]

Buffy's not always right you know, not as far as everyone is concerned. I don't think she was, I think she completely deserved to be knocked down a peg or two and I'm glad they did.

Her friends didn't trust her for very, very good reasons. It would take so much for those guys not to go with Buffy, they didn't do it to be horrible, they had their reasons whether or not you agree with them is another matter.

Like i mentioned before why now ???Giles brought the Potentials to Buffy. She did not ask for them,And all this time she alway excuted the plan from day one you carnt argue the fact here..And by the way i didnt say Buffy was always right but she was this time lol 🙂,I agree Buffy was abit fast with the plan but give her time i think their would resolve thier solutions..😉! Do you agree..😉!"

 

[Flannen]

Like i mentioned before why now ???Giles brought the Potentials to Buffy. She did not ask for them,And all this time she alway excuted the plan from day one you carnt argue the fact here..And by the way i didnt say Buffy was always right but she was this time lol 🙂,I agree Buffy was abit fast with the plan but give her time i think their would resolve thier solutions..😉! Do you agree..😉!"

I can argue the fact, if I disagree 😉

Like Wesley said above, Buffy didn't always execute the plan. The Scoobies, together, or even individually, 'executed the plan'.

Why now? Because the Scoobies seem to feel the same way about Buffy at this point that I do. She couldn't give a monkeys what they thought, she didn't want their opinion, she wanted them to lay their lives on the line for her AGAIN but all she was interested in was Spike's opinion. The Core Four were totally pushed out this season, by the writers, and by Buffy. Why should they stick by her when she acts like she's got where she has on her own and throws back all that they have done in the past, in their faces?

And personally, I would have LOVED for it to have been the other way round and for Faith to be right and Buffy wrong. 😛

 

[ukkid09]

Buffy was doing what she needed to do,. Her job. The Scooby’s always stood up for her and now they're ambushing her like that..They would perfer a slayer going threw redemption , a Killer to be the leader then Buffy a true hero.And she was willingly to do tactics with the scoobies but they didnt even listen to her,but they listen to her how to defeaft the Turok Han in the battle site and who mentioned the plan ...Buffy,
If I had been Buffy, I would have cursed them all out and then kicked them out and let them fend for themselves. Giles brought the Potentials to Buffy. She did not ask for them. Finally, I would have let the Scoobies know that out friendship is over. You don't turn on someone who has has been right 99% of the time after one defeat.

Yeah but Faith was wrong and buffy was right , she didnt them backing her up she powerful enought to do it herselff its just proved it ..😉 Go Buffy.

 

[Flannen]

She might have been powerful enough this time to do it by herself, but if it wasn't for those friends. She'd have been dead in 'Prophecy Girl'. Sometimes, I think she forgets that. Although her friends don't and that's why they behaved they way they did.

And unfortunately yes Buffy was right, but Faith deserved to be.

 

[ukkid09]

She might have been powerful enough this time to do it by herself, but if it wasn't for those friends. She'd have been dead in 'Prophecy Girl'. Sometimes, I think she forgets that. Although her friends don't and that's why they behaved they way they did.

And unfortunately yes Buffy was right, but Faith deserved to be.

But why did Xander quoted "XANDER,
I've been through more battles with Buffy than you all can ever imagine. She's stopped everything that's ever come up against her. She's laid down her life—literally—to protect the people around her. This girl has died two times, and she's still standing. You're scared? That's smart. You got questions? You should. But you doubt her motives, you think Buffy's all about the kill, then you take the little bus to battle. I've seen her heart, and this time—not literally. And I'm telling you, right now, she cares more about your lives than you will ever know. You gotta trust her. She's earned it."
So why now lol He was compliments her for the past years so i didnt get it when suddenly out of now where he was not following her motives and plans. ......And Buffy was right about her motives.Faith was wasnt wrong because she didnt know it was a trpp like Buffy said it could easily happened to her,But Buffy didnt plan that unsecessful plan.She plan to attack where the power was ..

 

[sosa lola]

So why now?

Because now they don't agree with her. Things had gone ugly because Buffy was stubborn and the others were so scared. She should have approached them in a better way, seeing as she'd failed in their last battle.

 

[ubi4soft]

Because now they don't agree with her. Things had gone ugly because Buffy was stubborn and the others were so scared. She should have approached them in a better way, seeing as she'd failed in their last battle.

Sosa, I agree that Buffy (and scoobies) should have approached the hole discussion in a better way, but the way you said it implies that her friends will tag along only if they're winning and that's not friendship (a friend in need is a friend indeed)

As I understand the point of the scene should have been that due to her superiority/inferiority complex Buffy walks away because she's not in command. The way it was written/edited resulted a big argument over who is right and Buffy is kicked out of her own home. And afterward Buffy learns that in order to win she has to share (the Chosen spell)

 

[ukkid09]

Sosa, I agree that Buffy (and scoobies) should have approached the hole discussion in a better way, but the way you said it implies that her friends will tag along only if they're winning and that's not friendship (a friend in need is a friend indeed)

As I understand the point of the scene should have been that due to her superiority/inferiority complex Buffy walks away because she's not in command. The way it was written/edited resulted a big argument over who is right and Buffy is kicked out of her own home. And afterward Buffy learns that in order to win she has to share (the Chosen spell)

Excellent point ....🙂

 

[Flannen]

Sosa, I agree that Buffy (and scoobies) should have approached the hole discussion in a better way, but the way you said it implies that her friends will tag along only if they're winning and that's not friendship (a friend in need is a friend indeed)

I think it's really unfair to describe the scoobies as only tagging along when they were winning. They all sacrificed SO MUCH to help Buffy. And you're right, that's not friendship. Friendship is consulting your friends on the same level and not acting like you know better, especially when her last decision based on knowing better than the others led to one of her best friends losing an eye.

Buffy didn't want to be in need. She had been pushing and pushing her friends away and they finally decided they weren't going to take it any more. They had always been there for Buffy in her time of need, but once a friend throws back in your face, you are no longer obliged to do it.

@ukkid - the fact that Xander had said all that stuff and then chosen to fall on the side of the fence that he did, shows just how much he was hurt by Buffy's attitude. And one thing, for me, is that ALL of them agreed on this. It doesn't matter whether Buffy was right in the end or not, but after the way things went, I'm not surprised they weren't willing to put their lives on the line for once again. They all felt this way, the same way I kinda felt watching it and that helps me to fall on the same side of Scoobies and not blindly follow Buffy just cos she's the Slayer.

 

[sosa lola]

Sosa, I agree that Buffy (and scoobies) should have approached the hole discussion in a better way, but the way you said it implies that her friends will tag along only if they're winning and that's not friendship (a friend in need is a friend indeed)

A friend should also acknowledge her friends' constant helping for years. Buffy had flat out told Giles that Spike was the only one watching her back exactly at the time Xander was in the hospital half blinded because he'd been watching her back. Giles had thrown Buffy's words in her face in front of Xander and Willow, they heard that Buffy didn't trust them and she didn't deny it. In the original script, there was a shot of Xander and Willow looking hurt, I don't understand why that shot was deleted; the scene was badly written and edited anyway.

I think both Buffy and the Scoobies handled things wrong, and I sympathize with both. Sometimes I come out defensive because almost everybody argue that Buffy is blameless in the scene, when she wasn't.

 

[ubi4soft]

A friend should also acknowledge her friends' constant helping for years. Buffy had flat out told Giles that Spike was the only one watching her back exactly at the time Xander was in the hospital half blinded because he'd been watching her back. Giles had thrown Buffy's words in her face in front of Xander and Willow, they heard that Buffy didn't trust them and she didn't deny it.

The worst part has yet to come, because without her they fall into Caleb's/First trap and Buffy saves the day with a new shining weapon, confirming that she was right and they were wrong and never talk about again

 

[sosa lola]

The worst part has yet to come, because without her they fall into Caleb's/First trap and Buffy saves the day with a new shining weapon, confirming that she was right and they were wrong and never talk about again

With her, they already fell into Caleb's/First trap. Everybody had told Buffy that it was a trap, but she didn't listen to them, and they were right. They'd followed her and lost. This time the stood for themselves and didn't follow her, they didn't want to repeat the previous mistake, and this time she was right about Caleb hiding something, but marching there wouldn't probably have been the best of ideas.

 

[ukkid09]

With her, they already fell into Caleb's/First trap. Everybody had told Buffy that it was a trap, but she didn't listen to them, and they were right. They'd followed her and lost. This time the stood for themselves and didn't follow her, they didn't want to repeat the previous mistake, and this time she was right about Caleb hiding something, but marching there wouldn't probably have been the best of ideas.

After 1 defeat in 7 years, I think Buffy had the right mind to give them experiences of battle. The Brutal and horrifying of battle, to give them a sense of what battles are really like. They were all trying to become a little army to fight the first evil. Their had a taste of battle and then suddenly their didn’t like it and took it out on Buffy,
I hate that they were ambushing Buffy about her tactics and solutions, and all that time they went to battle with Faith the second round in “Touched”, so what’s the difference of going to battle with Buffy. They were scared of getting killed or injured but they did anyways with they new leader Faith. All that disagreement they were injured and some potential got killed by a Turok hans.So they went to battle anyways ..😉!

 

[sosa lola]

After 1 defeat in 7 years, I think Buffy had the right mind to give them experiences of battle.

It wasn't the first defeat. Buffy had fell into traps before, on top of my head When She Was Bad and Becoming Part 1.

They had the right to choose their battle as well. They chose Faith, and she made a wrong call, just like Buffy did in Dirty Girls, no one is better than the other.

The potentials wanted a leader they can trust, and both Buffy and Faith were lousy leaders who couldn't handle the pressure. When Buffy came back, she was a much better and wiser leader, she started to ask for suggestions, ask for their opinions. She needed to be kicked out to become a better leader. And the others needed to try another leader to regain their faith in Buffy.

 

[BillyidolwannaB]

I personally would have trusted Buffy on this one. Even though she got it wrong in the first time they went to Calebs, i think she knew it would be different this time. I dont think she'd ask them to go in again if she seriously thought it would be a repeat of the first Caleb fight.

 

[sosa lola]

ubi4soft agrees: the scene's worst message: first time when they stood for themselves and they're wrong

LOL! You're right. It's like they're saying, "Hey, kids, never have opinions, never stand for your belief, just follow like blind puppets."