Empty Places...Were the Scoobies right?

[TheCheese]

They were out of order acting like that to Buffy. Like who does Anya think she is, Telling Buffy she thinks shes better than everyone. I never thought Buffy thought that. Willow and Dawn were way wrong too. At least Spike ends up putting them in their place.

Buffy admits that she thinks that. In "Conversations with Dead People," to the vamp she chats with. It seems that both sides had valid points. I can see her friends, especially Xander, freaking out, given that she HAS made bad decisions, and it's not like they hadn't questioned interfered with her choices before when they thought they could make better ones. She had no official authority, no one seems to indicate that the Slayer has supernatural planning skills, and I think it is philosophically dangerous using a crisis to justify dictatorship. At the same time, those who disagreed with Buffy should have LEFT rather than throwing her out.

 

[GrrArghx]

I hated it. It pissed me off to end. I was sitting there like 'Are you SERIOUS right now?! After all she's done... how the hell can she be selfish?' and what Anya said about her not 'earning' being the Slayer. It annoyed me. She may not have earned it BEFORE she became the Slayer, but I personally believe that when Slayers are chosen, they choose girls who deep down have the strength inside to be one. Besides, like Spike told them, she died for them... TWICE. If she was a selfish as they claim, she wouldn't be a Slayer at all. She didn't ask for this, and we all know she'd rather be a normal girl... but for them to ambush her like that it was so wrong of them. Especially during an APOCALYPSE, the worst one yet. They NEED Buffy, she needs them too yes, but they'd be nothing without her.

 

[owa]

When Buffy came back, she was a much better and wiser leader, she started to ask for suggestions, ask for their opinions.

Really?

I mean, she comes back as leader in End of Days, and that's the second last episode. No planning takes place in this episode, aside from trying to find out what the Scythe does... Which is the last part of the episode (Buffy talking to the elder and then fighting Caleb).

Buffy doesn't even talk about a plan with anyone for the first 10-15 minutes of Chosen. She wakes up one morning with her plan and tells everyone in the living room, where Giles explains that it's "Bloody brilliant" and then Willow gets concerned that she can't do it, but Buffy tells her she can.

She certainly comes back re-focused, but most of that comes from her encounter with The First in the middle of the night, and once she develops the plan, she tells everyone their roles and it goes on. I don't think she was any different then when she left, except she had a break and was more focused now that she had the Scythe (which she had established would be key to winning).

Had they gone through with the plan to begin with, she'd have gotten the Scythe then and they'd be in the same spot that they were in anyway.

 

[sosa lola]

Really?

When she was telling them the plan in Chosen, she was asking for their opinion, and Giles had said, "If you want my opinion." She answered, "I do."

That's a far cry from "I'm the law, you my robots, follow me!"

As you said, she came back focused. In the original script, Willow had been saying that Buffy needed to rest, and she was right. Even Xander says in an earlier episode that Buffy should get some sleep.

 

[owa]

When she was telling them the plan in Chosen, she was asking for their opinion, and Giles had said, "If you want my opinion." She answered, "I do."

That's a far cry from "I'm the law, you my robots, follow me!"

As you said, she came back focused. In the original script, Willow had been saying that Buffy needed to rest, and she was right. Even Xander says in an earlier episode that Buffy should get some sleep.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you have to recall that when Buffy originally planned to take down Caleb's hideout and see what he was protecting, she also asked for input, it was something like, "The plan is this, but I'm ready to talk strategy and tactics." IE: We are going to take it down, but I'm willing to talk about what you guys think is the best way to do it.

I guess my point is that she didn't come back a "much better and wiser leader" as you said. If she did, that one scene wasn't enough to prove it because she did the same thing before, just this time they had the Scythe and they all knew they had the key to victory. She may be a better leader after that, and I haven't read any of Season 8, but I can't speak for that. I can really only speak for Season 7.

 

[everclaire]

I must admit, I was surprised when everyone turned on her, especially Willow. It was disappointing but did give her time to reflect and go back to make better decisions. Faith was never going to be as good a leader because Faith has always been out for herself, she tries but seems to fail.

 

[Grey Ghost]

It is not the first time that the Scoobies have turned their back on Buffy, what's it more annoying is that they choose Faith! Unless it's her twin sister, is this the same Faith that killed a human and blamed Buffy?, Joined the Mayor?, Take her place in a body swap? I have never understood why Buffy still kept coming back for more, then you realise that she is a real friend!

 

[white avenger]

It is not the first time that the Scoobies have turned their back on Buffy, what's it more annoying is that they choose Faith! Unless it's her twin sister, is this the same Faith that killed a human and blamed Buffy?, Joined the Mayor?, Take her place in a body swap? I have never understood why Buffy still kept coming back for more, then you realise that she is a real friend!

In defense of Faith, even if she was the one whose objections actually started the mutiny, when Buffy left, she was the next logical one to take charge. As for what Faith had done in the past, great effort has been gone to, both on the Angel Series and on Buffy, to show that Faith is not the girl who did those things before. Her story in that respect is quite parallel to Spike's, though I'm going to try very hard not to head off on that tangent at this point or in this thread. Both have undergone self imposed trials to become better people, and they have both succeeded. In Faith's case, it is shown in the fact that she is now willing to work with the team, not play lone wolf so much, and that when, and only when, the real leader of the team is missing, be it Angel or Buffy, she is able to step into that role and do a good job as leader in her own right. Also significant is that, in both the case of Angel AND Buffy, when the real leader returns, she gives them her full support. Okay, granted, she left LA almost as soon as Angel was restored, and she was somewhat incapacitated when Buffy returned, but still, she could have caused some real trouble and confusion in either place if she had chosen to do so, but she didn't do it.

 

[Wesley]

It is not the first time that the Scoobies have turned their back on Buffy, what's it more annoying is that they choose Faith! Unless it's her twin sister, is this the same Faith that killed a human and blamed Buffy?, Joined the Mayor?, Take her place in a body swap? I have never understood why Buffy still kept coming back for more, then you realise that she is a real friend!

It's important to remember that for all the wannabe Slayers, Andrew, Wood, Anya etc. all those things that Faith did are just stories about her. They never experienced them like the Original scoobies, or we the audience did. To them, Faith just showed up with Willow, hung around, acted cool, did some Tai Chi, took them all to the Bronze and beat the living hell out of a cop or 7. Faith was definitely the cool Aunt to Buffys stern and uncool Mother figure. The kids always want the cool Aunt to be in charge, until nothing in the house is clean, no one makes meals, and everything generally goes crazy, then they realize Mom was good for a few things and maybe being stern isn't so bad after all.

 

[chrcol]

Interesting arguments to both sides. Also need we not forget buffy also died in the alternate world where the master was on the surface alive with xander and willow as vamps, it was giles which saved her by destroying that gem.

I can see why the scoobies were angry but the way dawn kicked her out wasnt acceptable, she should have been as loyal as spike.

I would have done the scene with dawn backing buffy up but been outvoted.

 

[Eleftheria]

Ok I just watched this and I think that if I don't express my opinion I will explode or something. : erm :

Buffy led them to the vineyard. It was time for them to have a fight.Xander lost his eye. Buffy doesn't feel good about it. It is obvious. She doesn't wanna talk about this. kennedy making a comment about how Caleb defeated the Slayer with a punch actually makes me wanna punch her!

But WHAT THE HELL are they doing? Who do they think they are???Standing up for themselves? They ,who have no experience and absolutely no clue about what a Slayer means. What it reallys means after 7 years of fighting extreme monsters,including a goddess from Hell, and dying TWO TIMES. Being a Potential is nothing compared to being the Slayer,doing what Buffy has done.

Rona?Kennedy? who gives them the right? what kind of attitude is this?They live to her house,she protects them, yeah she made a mistake in the end. But it's not her fault.It was a trap. No respect at all to the person who is trying to do what's best for them. Who could expect what happened in the vineyard?And I don't really mind about those brats, the Potentials. I come to the real thing here.

Anya, the ex-demon talks about Buffy being "luckier"? And Willow, the magic addict,former Dark Willow-I-wanna-destroy-the-world and killer, defys her judgement???COME ON!!! I really don't know why Buffy didn't talk. She didn't really stand up for herself cause it's not in her character to be judgemental about her friends.

And last but not least,when exactly Dawn became leader of the house,huh??? She doesn't even respect the fact that Buffy DIED for her! She dares say"I love you". Yeah,right!Some love!Buffy had to work to gain money and keep the house safe. I don't know people but their attitude was more than annoying. If it's time to hate the Scoobies, now it's the right time for me. And Giles...I don't know what to say about him.

The only ones I don't mind is Xander, maybe, mostly because in the previous episode he gave that wonderful talk about Buffy. And Faith. Faith may have expressed a few disagreements, but hey this is Buffy and Faith. Not always agreeing. And besides Faith is a Slayer. She has participated in a few important battles.