Empty Places

[GATEGOD]

First off!! what a great episode!!

Starting with Clem and Buffy was perfect. Clem kept taking back what he says makes the scene even more hilarious!!
Faith stealing Andrews hot pocket was great too. Andrew starts ranting about how it had his name on it and Faith walks in eating it!!
One of my favorite scenes in this episode though had to be the Spike/Andrew scene on his motorcycle.
When Andrew starts talking about going to get food, first you think Spike is going to toss him off the bike....
But instead he starts talking about it too!! haha then of course "Tell anyone we had this conversation and I'll bite you" :lmao:

One scene that topped that one though had to be the Xander/Willow scene in the hospital when they start making jokes.
XANDER: Well, to go with the eye patch, to really complete the look. I think I still have that costume from Halloween.

WILLOW: Yeah, and don't underestimate the impact of a peg leg. Maybe the hospital can hook you up with a nice one. Maybe they have a 2-body-parts for the price of one kind of deal.

XANDER: Oh, you know what the best part is? No one will ever make me watch jaws 3-D again.

WILLOW: Yeah, and, (tries to smile) you'll never have to... (tries not to cry)

XANDER: (pained) Oh, Willow... please don't.

:cry: :cry: That was a very very very sad scene, almost made me cry :cry:

Then everyone turning on Buffy.... I mean wtf! Not even one of her friends stands up for her... One episode ago Xander's on the Buffy float
And now after what happens he turns on her too, everyone sucks, I mean sure she might be wrong sometimes, so you turn on her...
Of course Dawn will turn on her because Dawn needs attention and never gets any, Willow....wtf
Anya duh... she hates Buffy almost lol, Robin would turn because Buffy cares for Spike, Faith didn't turn as much as the others
Then Giles, the one who she keeps telling she doesn't need...biased much, and these stupid girls who know nothing ...
Arg!! Buffy should just let them all die if they feel so strongly about her not being fit to lead them! :cheering: :rant over:

Edit:

One small thing i do like the very next episode spike comes back and stands up for her!! Very touching episode. This small little bit in particular:

SPIKE: You listen to me. I?ve been alive a bit longer than you and dead a lot longer than that. I?ve seen things you couldn?t imagine and done things I?d prefer you didn?t. I don?t exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn?t exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes. A lot of wrong bloody calls. A hundred plus years and there?s only one thing I?ve ever been sure of. You. Hey, look at me. I?m not asking you for anything. When I say I love you, it?s not because I want you, or because I can?t have you. It has nothing to do with me. I love what you are, what you do, how you try. I?ve seen your kindness and your strength. I?ve seen the best and the worst of you and I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You are a hell of a woman. You?re the one, Buffy.

That was very sad, and very happy and very eye watery and very AMAZING! Atleast someone stands by her.

 

[sosa lola]

I guess I'm one of the few who felt bad for the Scoobies and could see their side, instead of just seeing Buffy's. 🙂 I firmly believe that Buffy came back stronger than ever after Empty Places and was a muich better and more respected leader.

 

[Wanabee-slayer]

I could see the scoobies side to the argument and even if they didn't think it was a good idea I think they could have compromised!!! I mean she has been saving their lives for the last 7 years and they kick her out? They were an ungrateful binch of *coughs*, I've ever seen. I mean really!!!!! She did everything for them!! They were her friends and family and the whole point of that is you stick by each other no matter what else happens.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Wood, Anya, The Potentials - I can totally understand there POV. Heck, i'd even be on their side.

Willow and Giles - I cannot for the life of me understand them. Buffy is the one person that they SHOULD trust implicitly and definitely not turn against in a public forum.

They should have taken her aside and not done what they did.

Xander, well even though he'd had his eye smushed and I can forgive the fear, still should have took her aside. After all these have been through and what she's sacrificed for them, they owed her that.

Faith, she did nothing wrong except be there.

Dawn, I think her intentions were honourable. She did ask Buffy to leave BUT that was because Buffy had put herself into a corner(thanks to her BEST friends) and Dawn gave her the way out.

Its not a matter of Buffy coming back stronger, none of the guys did it for Buffy's benefit, they did it for themselves, the fraidy cats.

 

[sosa lola]

They didn't kick her out because of nothing. They were arguing about her plan, which they all decided that it wasn't a good one. Only Buffy thought it was a good plan. Buffy had a theory and they all were willing to discuss it, but to go back to the same place where they had badly lost? To do that same reckless plan again? You can't expect them to be robots and just agree to that. Buffy wanted them to fall in line, which was impossible when the group wasn't convinced about the plan, here Buffy made a mistake. She should have been more open for suggestions and listened carefully to what her friends and group thought. She had the right idea, but I don’t think she had the right strategy.

When the group suggested that Faith should lead, Buffy was furious and reacted badly (which made me feel bad for her as it didn't make her look good) Buffy couldn't follow, and she clearly didn't want to follow Faith, so she said:

"I can't stay here and watch her lead you to a disaster."

To which Dawn replied, "Then you shouldn't."

I actually think Dawn's idea of Buffy leaving was wise, but she didn't do it right. She could have talked to Buffy privately about Buffy needing to rest and get her act together, instead of taking Buffy's comment to heart and asking her to leave.

Buffy came back after what had happened stronger than ever, she knew her mistakes, and was able to come back strong. Her behavior changed, from "Fall in line" to "What do you think of the plan?" to which the group started to admire her and respect her again.

I think S7 sucked because it had Buffy as a General and the others as Soldiers, the show wasn't about that. It had always been about group work and listening to each other's suggestions.

I don't think Buffy would have become that way if it wasn't for Giles who pushed her to be like that. Buffy was trying hard but with every day passing, General Buffy was losing the love and trust others had for her, even Spike was quite pissed at her in Get It Done. Then her badly phrased comment to piss Giles more about her trusting no one than Spike, made Xander, Willow and Dawn deeply hurt and unable to support her again during that argument. After everything they had done for her, after trying so hard to follow her lead in S7, they discover that she didn't trust them, why should they trust her then? (Of course, I don't think that two wrongs make a right, I'm just trying to see where the characters came from.)

Everybody there made mistakes, even Buffy, no one was perfect. Both parties were wrong and right.

Sadly we didn't get to see a scene where Buffy and the Scoobies discussed what had happened. The writers really screwed up in S7, which is why it's my least favorite season.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

They didn't kick her out because of nothing. They were arguing about her plan, which they all decided that it wasn't a good one. Only Buffy thought it was a good plan. Buffy had a theory and they all were willing to discuss it, but to go back to the same place where they had badly lost? To do that same reckless plan again? You can't expect them to be robots and just agree to that. Buffy wanted them to fall in line, which was impossible when the group wasn't convinced about the plan, here Buffy made a mistake. She should have been more open for suggestions and listened carefully to what her friends and group thought. She had the right idea, but I don't think she had the right strategy

This is the problem isn't it.
They spend the year telling Buffy that she is the LEADER the GENERAL and when she starts finally acting like one, making the decisions they turn on her.
Problem is, the underlying reason for their mutinous ways isn't the problem with the plan.

Willow is afraid she'll have to use magic.
Xander is afraid that he will die because he has no powers.
Giles is smarting because Buffy told him she doesn't need him anymore to 'train' her.

They used this moment to protect themselves or get a little bit of revenge.

Buffy had made plans in the past that were just as reckless, but it was this that made her different to other Slayers, it was this that Giles had nurtured in the passed.

What the potentials wanted was a plan thta would have everyone going in and fighting and winning without loss of life - that wouldn't happen and Giles and co knew that. The plan was sound, it was the people that were the issue.

When the group suggested that Faith should lead, Buffy was furious and reacted badly (which made me feel bad for her as it didn't make her look good) Buffy couldn't follow, and she clearly didn't want to follow Faith, so she said:

"I can't stay here and watch her lead you to a disaster."

To which Dawn replied, "Then you shouldn't."

I actually think Dawn's idea of Buffy leaving was wise, but she didn't do it right. She could have talked to Buffy privately about Buffy needing to rest and get her act together, instead of taking Buffy's comment to heart and asking her to leave.

Which is why I defended them.
I am 100% behind Dawn in this situation(and Faith) because she kept her mouth shut in the disagreement until she saw a way of getting Buffy out of it. She is also the first one to defend Buffy after Buffy has gone.

Interestingly, Faith instantly realises that Buffy HAD to make the decisions.

Buffy came back after what had happened stronger than ever, she knew her mistakes, and was able to come back strong. Her behavior changed, from "Fall in line" to "What do you think of the plan?" to which the group started to admire her and respect her again.

I think S7 sucked because it had Buffy as a General and the others as Soldiers, the show wasn't about that. It had always been about group work and listening to each other's suggestions.

NONE of them knew that Buffy would come back stronger, as far as they were concerned she'd gone for the rest of the fight.
They were the ones telling Buffy to be the one to tell people to 'Fall in line' not the other way around.
Then when Buffy comes back, she has the Scythe, Faith suffered a huge defeat and they felt guilt.

Buffy's biggest mistake was listening to the people she trusted and then allowing them to betray her.

 

[sosa lola]

So you think they wanted to hurt Buffy? I only saw resentment in Giles' tone (as well as Buffy's, she wasn't an angel in the argument) the others were being gentle, even Xander stated that he was trying to see Buffy's point, but then he lost his left eye doing that exact same plan.

When reading the original scene we read so many times about Willow trying to tell Buffy that she needed to rest because her plan sounded rushed. Do you want Willow to follow Buffy like the lapdog she always was? I was actually proud of Willow in that scene, finally standing up to Buffy. Buffy's shocked look showed that she always considered Willow her safety net, even when she's being irrational.

I explained what I thought about the characters' actions in the other thread "Get Out", we can discuss this over there if you like 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

So you think they wanted to hurt Buffy? I only saw resentment in Giles' tone (as well as Buffy's, she wasn't an angel in the argument) the others were being gentle, even Xander stated that he was trying to see Buffy's point, but then he lost his left eye doing that exact same plan.

When reading the original scene we read so many times about Willow trying to tell Buffy that she needed to rest because her plan sounded rushed. Do you want Willow to follow Buffy like the lapdog she always was? I was actually proud of Willow in that scene, finally standing up to Buffy. Buffy's shocked look showed that she always considered Willow her safety net, even when she's being irrational.

I explained what I thought about the characters' actions in the other thread "Get Out", we can discuss this over there if you like 🙂

Xander and Willow wasn't about Buffy it was about their own fears.

Willow isn't standing up to Buffy for any other reason than fear - thats not something to be proud of.

Willow was a trusted ally. Buffy needed her and expected her to be honest BUT not in front of the 'army'.

Fact is, in a real war situation, if a Sgt talks like that to a general like that, they'd warrant being shot.
Any issue they had, they owed it to Buffy to take her aside and discuss their misgivings. Its nothing at all to do with the plan, it really isn't. This is all the internal issues they have and used Buffy's plan and weak status in the group.

 

[sosa lola]

Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I don't get it, so the Scoobies were supposed to handle the situation wisely and Buffy isn't expected to? She was also lashing out and accusing and ordering the group to fall in line. I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermans.

I see where Buffy was coming from, I also see where the others were, and I don't consider their actions to be betrayals. I didn't like that Buffy had to leave the house like that, I thought it was extreme of Dawn to say such thing in front of everybody, but that doesn't mean that I expect everybody to follow Buffy's orders like mindless robots.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I don't get it, so the Scoobies were supposed to handle the situation wisely and Buffy isn't expected to? She was also lashing out and accusing and ordering the group to fall in line. I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermans

For all intent and purpose the Scoobies had been Soldiers, they had been for 6 years. They knew how Buffy worked.
Also, they made quite a deal of Xander retaining his Military Memory through out the show, he should have been able to understand why what he was doing was wrong.

Buffy became defensive when she was being attacked. Can you blame her? She was being attacked by novices and loved ones, she had no one helping her, she went to the only place she was able to. It may have been wrong, but she felt she had to. Over the years she fought with certainty that she would die, she's fought with certainty that she'd lose forever the man she loved, she'd fought with a huge possibility that her sister would die and at the end moment decided to give her life for her sister, her friends and the world and she had even fought her best friend. She knew the prices she had to constantly pay yet she still fought on. This, however, this was the first time that her friends were against her and it hurt.

As for 'robots' well again, they shouldn't be BUT they should respect Buffy, her plans and ger motivation. They didn't do that.

 

[white avenger]

Rebellion

Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermen.


No, they were a bunch of Potential SuperWOMEN. And maybe being the instructor in a martial arts class doesn't give me the same perspective as a teacher in a regular classroom, but in my class, I am the black belt, and I am the one in charge. If the ultimate argument is only, "Because I said so," then that is the end of the discussion. (Incidentally, my wife is a retired school teacher with a Master's degree in Special Ed, and she agrees with me)

 

[Kean]

Maybe Buffy needed to talk to the Scoobies first before expecting them to fall in line in front of the Slayer Jr.

I tried that method in the classroom, my students rebelled against me. You can't expect a group of people who knew nothing about military to act like soliders, especially when Buffy herself was not acting like a good General. These were a group of people with fears and weaknesses, not a bunch of supermen.


No, they were a bunch of Potential SuperWOMEN. And maybe being the instructor in a martial arts class doesn't give me the same perspective as a teacher in a regular classroom, but in my class, I am the black belt, and I am the one in charge. If the ultimate argument is only, "Because I said so," then that is the end of the discussion. (Incidentally, my wife is a retired school teacher with a Master's degree in Special Ed, and she agrees with me)

It's like a pack of wolves, there can only be one Alpha. That is Buffy. She is the law. End of story.

 

[sosa lola]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 🙂 I don't think that Buffy is the law, and I don't believe that one voice will be leading others to victory. You guys believe in that, I don't. Nothing will change that, so I guess that's why we don't understand each other.

 

[GATEGOD]

When there is a coming War Buffy is the leader and the one voice, yes she hears everyone else, but in the end everything is up to her!

 

[Kean]

And it wasn't the plan they had the problem with it was Buffy! Faith basically carried out the plan Buffy proposed...they went after the weapon and got blown up for their efforts. The scoobies used Buffy's weakening standing with the potentials to tear her down. Mutiny.

 

[GATEGOD]

And it wasn't the plan they had the problem with it was Buffy! Faith basically carried out the plan Buffy proposed...they went after the weapon and got blown up for their efforts. The scoobies used Buffy's weakening standing with the potentials to tear her down. Mutiny.

Pure blooded mutiny!!!! 🙂 Faith could have idk... not just stand there doing nothing as they elected her leader!!
But the fact that no one even believed in Buffy out of the 20-30 people there.... shows how much character they all have!! :: vampire

 

[Kean]

Pure blooded mutiny!!!! 🙂 Faith could have idk... not just stand there doing nothing as they elected her leader!!
But the fact that no one even believed in Buffy out of the 20-30 people there.... shows how much character they all have!! :: vampire

I actually feel sorry for Faith, she didn't want any of what went down to happen, it was just thrust apon her.

I wonder though do the scoobies feel responsible for those deaths caused by the bomb? those girls wouldn't have died if they hadn't thrown Buffy out? of course that was never mentioned!. The bloody double standards strike again!!!

 

[Nabila]

I don't really like watching this episode. I haven't seen it for a long time. Wasn't Faith the first to oppose Buffy's plan. I remember thinking, when I first saw this, that Faith should have spoken to Buffy in private, slayer to slayer, about her misgivings. After all this is Slayer business. When Faith openly opposed Buffy's plan, everybody started to jump in. I can understand Faith though because she's also weary and just sort of blurted it out. That happens.

This episode didn't make much sense to me. From the start, the potentials were already rude to Buffy, and none of the Scoobies or Dawn reprimands them to have some respect. It's Buffy's house. She didn't invite them. As usual, they were shoved down her throat. These are such ill-mannered girls. Where on earth did they come from? If one or two of them were rude without manners, I can understand. But all of them?

It also doesn't make sense to me why any one of them would risk making a slayer angry especially the slayer who owns the house. Buffy should have kicked them all out instead. But of course she wouldn't. She is way above them. If she feels superior, that's because she is. Not in terms of her gift but as a person. She really just can't be petty.

And the Scoobies? I really can't accept what they have done here.

I can understand about Anya because she was just furious that Xander lost his eye fighting Buffy's war. Actually, it's everybody's war but the fact that Anya lashed out at Buffy, who gave her refuge as well, proves she just wants to blame Buffy.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I don't get how people don't agree with what the gang did. Buffy was so outta line.

The potentials so had a right to stick up to her, they don't know her and she is demanding them to put their lives on the line, if I were in that position I would be right there with them, is there anyone here who could honestly say that if they were a 17 year old girl, having just come from a fight were you were probably injured, your friends died and you have no super power, that as soon as Buffy said ok we're going back in, you would be jumping at the opportunity?

Why the hell would you give complete control of your life over to someone else, without wanting a say. Don't forget Buffy says it herself, They weren't recruited they were chosen. She was so clearly wrong, and she realised this, that's why when we get to "Chosen" she gives them a choice to fight, I know we don't get to see them choose to, but she does say it so it's safe to say that since she's not barking orders at them, and actually working with them, they choose to fight.

The scoobies are different, you can have complete faith in someone, but go through a bad decision like the one Buffy made and suffer such a loss, the scoobies would have been mad to agree to this without thinking about it more!

 

[Kean]

Like I said before, this was a military situation, it was their DUTY to fall in line. They didn't choose to be potentials, well Buffy didn't chose to be a slayer, it was thrust apon her and she just had to deal. The same as every slayer before and a couple after her, this was an apocolypse, it was war, as callous as it sounds people get hurt. I'm not saying it's fair but in Buffy's own words 'it's the job we have to do'. Like you said Buffy asked them to decide when she told them her plan, she gave them a chioce that she didn't get. Not only did she have to be strong, she had to be the strongest...at 15!! By agreeing to go with Giles they were agreeing to everything that comes with being 'chosen'.