Spoiler! Extremely spoilery: Buffy #34 Soliciations.

white avenger agrees: I think that there will be quite a few fans who will buy the issues just on the hopes that somehow everything is gonna work out okay, and they don't wanta miss it when it does. Which it almost certainly will.

I've been racking my brains trying to think up some scenario under which this could turn out to be a satisfying story. And I can't think of one.

Either Angel has bizarrely made the decision to embrace evil after all this time, or he is ONCE AGAIN the pawn of forces beyond his control, and will be forgiven for everything in the end because it wasn't his fault. Again.

And I don't want to hear about how he thought he was "making hard decisions for the greater good." I mean, look at the things he's done. Greater good? Are we supposed to believe that Angel has the moral comprehension of a sociopathic eight-year-old? And he's done it all without the slightest hint of a moral qualm... even as he's stood there and watched brave young girls slaughtered by the dozens by his minions.

I can't envision a scenario under which Angel isn't destroyed as a character by this. And if those #34 covers are any indication, Buffy will be right there beside him, "giving him a happy."

I think I'm going to be sick.
 
I've been racking my brains trying to think up some scenario under which this could turn out to be a satisfying story. And I can't think of one.

Either Angel has bizarrely made the decision to embrace evil after all this time, or he is ONCE AGAIN the pawn of forces beyond his control, and will be forgiven for everything in the end because it wasn't his fault. Again.

And I don't want to hear about how he thought he was "making hard decisions for the greater good." I mean, look at the things he's done. Greater good? Are we supposed to believe that Angel has the moral comprehension of a sociopathic eight-year-old? And he's done it all without the slightest hint of a moral qualm... even as he's stood there and watched brave young girls slaughtered by the dozens by his minions.

I can't envision a scenario under which Angel isn't destroyed as a character by this. And if those #34 covers are any indication, Buffy will be right there beside him, "giving him a happy."

I think I'm going to be sick.

I agree, Andrew. I've been racking my brains too to how Joss could explain this whole thing and make it believable.

The only thing that seems plausible to me if that it's Angelus. In the interview, Allie refuses to answer when the girl asks if it's Angelus or if Angel is human. So, these are possibilities. Unless he's messing with us. He seems to stick by his guns when he says that lots will be revealed in the coming issues, and everything will "come together."

I'm not so sure. Say Twilight is Angelus. When, might I ask, did Angel and Angelus become separate beings? Ange's been in L.A. with Spike and the gang....while Angelus has been terrorizing Buffy and her pals? Huh? Explain that.

Option #2: Like you said, Angel's under a spell/being controlled by forces greater then him. *yawns* Come on, Joss! Can't you think of something different for once.

Option 3: Covers are a total red herring, as in they're just dreams.
EVEN MORE LAME!

Option 4: Angel is Twilight. Bad, bad, bad. How did he pull it off? Who knows? Why? Who knows? If this is the case, Angel is dead to me. I vote someone stakes him.

And in response to those who think we shouldn't be surprised that it is Angel; Well, we thought it would be future Angel/us. Big diff.

The fact that it could have been Angel all along....is just too much for me to wrap my head around. How didn't people know? Like Spike for instance, as WA mentioned?

Gotta go watch DH...
 
...I've been racking my brains too to how Joss could explain this whole thing and make it believable.

The only thing that seems plausible to me if that it's Angelus. In the interview, Allie refuses to answer when the girl asks if it's Angelus or if Angel is human. So, these are possibilities. Unless he's messing with us. He seems to stick by his guns when he says that lots will be revealed in the coming issues, and everything will "come together."

I'm not so sure. Say Twilight is Angelus. When, might I ask, did Angel and Angelus become separate beings? Ange's been in L.A. with Spike and the gang....while Angelus has been terrorizing Buffy and her pals? Huh? Explain that.

Option 4: Angel is Twilight. Bad, bad, bad. How did he pull it off? Who knows? Why? Who knows? If this is the case, Angel is dead to me. I vote someone stakes him.

And in response to those who think we shouldn't be surprised that it is Angel; Well, we thought it would be future Angel/us. Big diff.

The fact that it could have been Angel all along....is just too much for me to wrap my head around. How didn't people know? Like Spike for instance, as WA mentioned?

Gotta go watch DH...

I had guessed that W&H pulled Angelus out of Angel, but that's impossible now, as Angel has had his demon back for a long time.

But Joan, remember that Angel, right now is taking place during 2004/2005, where Buffy is probably at least 2007+, so it wouldn't have to jive with The Crown Prince Syndrome.
As you know Andrew, I'm one of Armstrong's Aftermath's biggest critics, but the only way to justify an ambiguously good Buffy & Angel orchestrating this war would have to follow the principle of the Aftermath arc (lifted from other stories such as the film Minority Report).

It would have to be the two culling off those who would pose a threat to the Good Fight in the future, just like the Armstrong!PTB-Angels were doing.

I'm not saying that's what I believe, but I think that if Buffy + Angel set this all up, that's amongst the most reasonable explanations.
I've been racking my brains trying to think up some scenario under which this could turn out to be a satisfying story. And I can't think of one.

Either Angel has bizarrely made the decision to embrace evil after all this time, or he is ONCE AGAIN the pawn of forces beyond his control, and will be forgiven for everything in the end because it wasn't his fault. Again.

And I don't want to hear about how he thought he was "making hard decisions for the greater good." I mean, look at the things he's done. Greater good? Are we supposed to believe that Angel has the moral comprehension of a sociopathic eight-year-old? And he's done it all without the slightest hint of a moral qualm... even as he's stood there and watched brave young girls slaughtered by the dozens by his minions.

I can't envision a scenario under which Angel isn't destroyed as a character by this. And if those #34 covers are any indication, Buffy will be right there beside him, "giving him a happy."

I think I'm going to be sick.

So you're on the "Twilight's Angel" Bandwagon too now Andrew?

Personally, I won't be upset at all if Twilight is Angel. I am however, quite confused. My confusion was actually exacerbated by Allie's interview...

Why the four year secrecy in the first place, if the big reveal was made off-screen (or off-page in this case)? How did guys as professional and competent as Whedon, Allie, and Jeanty allow THREE HIGH-RESOLUTION COVERS TO LEAK?!?

I just find it pretty confusing, since Twilight could have been out-of-mask 90% of the time. I guess Riley was the only reason Angel never revealed himself?

And I'm still of the belief that Joss won't make Angel evil. Assuming this is legit, I'm sure it's either Angelus, or Angel's working towards some big altruistic mission orchestrated by Buffy or Cordy/TPTB.
 
Kean
Kean
Your last point is what I believe too.
Please, people, let's try to get a little perspective here. I'm always quite shocked at how strongly people can react. You don't cut a tree because one piece of fruit seems rotten. We don't know what happens. So please let's wait and see before we declare everything's ruined. And I'm saying that as a Bangel shipper. Yes it looks scary, and I really hope everything gets explained and it's all amazing. But all I personally know is that, every time I started doubting Joss, he proved me wrong. That is all I have to say.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
I hope you're right.
M
Megalita
[No message]
Have you read this, guys? It was posted on the Darkhorse comics forum.

Behind Buffy's Twilight Reveal

* by Kiel Phegley, News Editor

Sure, last month Dark Horse Comics pulled a tongue-in-cheek fakeout as to the identity of "Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 8" villain Twilight when the publisher teased the Big Bad's true identity would hit in March's issue #33 before revealing a mock cover showing President Obama as Twilight. But when today's April Dark Horse solicitations landed on CBR, a different identity was floated for the black-clad bad guy, and this time it's all too real.

Twilight is none other than Buffy's former love, the vampire known as Angel.

"We knew from the get go. It was back in January of four years ago when I found out that Angel was Twilight," "Buffy" editor Scott Allie explained to CBR in an exclusive first interview. "It sounds funny saying that. I've kept that secret for four years, so it feels funny saying out loud to a reporter from CBR that Angel is Twilight. I've tried so hard not to let those words slip!"

And while one day in the reveal certainly has Buffy fans worked up across message boards and on Twitter under the hashtag [HASHTAG]#twilightisangel[/HASHTAG], Allie is more than happy to breath a sigh of relief that he doesn't have to sit on the secret any longer. "At the Baltimore convention this past year, I had driven there overnight and hadn't slept in like 36 hours. Then I did a panel with [artists] Jo [Chen] and Georges [Jeanty,] and somebody asked a question about Twilight. I replied by saying, 'Yeah, well An...' and then I caught myself! Instead of saying 'Angel' I said 'Another' and just started vamping and trying to come up with a sentence to cover the fact that I just spilled that Angel was Twilight. But I covered and was able to conceal the secret. Georges looked at me like he was going to kill me. That was the closest I came to blowing it."

Though the editor was quick to note that while the secret was out there, plenty more twists and turns lie ahead for superstar novelist and comic writer Brad Meltzer's superhero-centric arc on the series (starting in February's #32) and right on into Buffy creator Joss Whedon's return to the series after that. In fact, Allie stressed that assuming a flat out battle between Buffy and Angel was the next step in the story would be wrong. "'The Big Bad' is a phrase that originated from Joss in 'Buffy' – this idea that in a season you might have a whole lot of people to fight, but there's one Big Bad, one major villain that you have to defeat at the end. But this is not like that," he explained. "Right now it feels to everybody on the outside like, 'Oh, the cat's out of the bag! Twilight is Angel!' but the question [of how the end game rolls out that] all the fans are asking is not really the right question. If this was any other book and Twilight was any other villain, that would be the question to ask. But the question right now is 'How does Buffy react to the fact that Twilight is Angel?' It's not as simple anymore as 'Now we've got to deal with the bad guy.'

"In the early days of my working with Joss, there was something he said to me about working in this field, and that is 'It's all about relationships.' I remembered that, and it's been a guiding principal in my career. That line jumped back at me this morning thinking about this spoiler being out there. Because it is all about relationships – if it was any other villain, it'd just be a question of who kills who, but it's a much bigger question than that. Who's going to ally themselves with Angel and Twilight? There are still some big surprises in store. It's not as clear as it appears to be with those covers slipped out."

One immediate concern fans may have over the news that Angel and Twilight are one and the same is exactly what that means for the character's own canonical comic book series, which just recently wrapped its "After The Fall" continuation of his spinoff TV series for IDW Publishing. While IDW continue to tell stories with the character under the pen of writer Bill Willingham, Allie promised that Whedon had plans to reconcile both versions to make a cohesive Buffyverse. "I talked to Chris [Ryall] at IDW last night, and I'm going to talk to him today to reassure him that it all connects and it's all going to jibe. That's one thing we wanted to reassure him of and to make clear. This isn't going to be some big conflict with the IDW continuity. It's all going to be made to work."

And "making it work" appears to have become the theme for Dark Horse and the entire "Buffy Season 8" project as the continued story of the vampire slayer, her gathering of pals and her new army of slayers has changed and adapted in many ways while still retaining Whedon's master plan. "There was a lot of pliability. As I've said before, when 'Season 8' first got handed to me, for years Joss and I had already been talking about doing 'Season 8' and what we would do. The big question was who was going to write it, or how it was going to be managed. We never, ever imagined that he'd be involved as he wound up being. We thought we'd give Jane Espenson an outline, and she'd go to town with it, or we'd get someone like her to run the project. Then what happened is one day Joss just e-mailed me a script for 'Buffy' #1 and said, 'We're going to do Season 8. I'm going to write the first four. We'll see what happens after that.'"

Four years ago, Whedon wrote out a "Buffy Manifesto" which included the identity of Twilight and was circulated under strictest confidence to Dark Horse editorial and the various comic and TV writers who would be contributing to the series. Still, the outline didn't specify exactly how each piece of the story would roll out, much like Whedon runs a TV series. "There was a lot of room for the writers to do their own thing and contribute their own ideas, but it was always being managed by Joss to keep it steered towards the ultimate goal," Allie said. "He knew all the major points and all the major bits, but he wanted to give each writer some individual freedom on their arcs. Like, when Drew Goddard wrote the third arc, Joss would say, 'Here are the big things we're going to hit, but what do you feel like doing?' And Drew said, 'I'd love to do Japan, and I like Godzilla.' So the fact that Buffy went to Japan in the third arc was Drew's idea, but the major points in the story were from Joss' outline. Then they'd get together and figure out how to use Japan to further the story of Twilight and the building of the Slayer army and all of that."

The final pieces of the Angel as Twilight reveal came into play as writer Jane Espenson broke out her "Retreat" arc while Whedon decided what pieces would carry over to Meltzer's own story. "At the end of Jane's arc, Buffy gets superpowers. That was set up to play to Brad's strengths as a big superhero buff. When it came time for him to start writing, Brad said, 'I really want to play with this Superman stuff, and I can do that through Xander who's also a superhero buff.' And it was through their initial conversations we knew how much of focus we were going to place on Buffy as a superhero," Allie revealed.

"We never had everything about it planned out too far in advance, and until a couple of weeks ago, there were questions about how far Brad's arc would go. Because this reveal of Twilight as Angel is a pretty big shift in what's going on, but what that means and what happens next readers still don't know. And there's a bunch of landmarks and reveals between his revelation and the end of the series. Up until a week ago, we weren't sure how many of those would be in Brad's arc and what would be left for Joss. But now we're pretty clear on what happens in Brad's final issue."
Source:Behind Buffys Twilight Reveal - Comic Book Resources

---------- Post added at 10:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 AM ----------

Oooh...ok. I thought it was something different, lol. Well, here's the full text anyway.
 
Kean
Kean
Yeah this is the CBR interview from yesterday.
i still haven't found the original cover that georges' is based on.

one of infantino's most famous covers is "the flash of two worlds"...it introduces the concept of parallel earths into dc comics continuity...just coming in from left field we might be dealing with an angel from a parallel universe?
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
..or from the future?
And I'm still of the belief that Joss won't make Angel evil. Assuming this is legit, I'm sure it's either Angelus, or Angel's working towards some big altruistic mission orchestrated by Buffy or Cordy/TPTB.

Couldn't be much simpler like: the empowerment spell did a great imbalance between good and evil, therefore deciding that Angel will fight for the bad guys in the final apocalypse.

TPTB, Beljoxa's Eye, whatever/whomever Joss will decide will tell Angel about that, so in order to avoid winning the apocalypse for the bad guys, Angel wants to exterminate the slayers to restore the balance.

Somehow this will connect the DH and IDW verses.

Nobody mentions anything about how Faith is going to react to this reveal, Faith who didn't give up on Angel when he was Angelus.

We've already seen Buffy absorbing power from Willow and the slayers in Tibet (through those goddesses) Maybe they'll find a way to absorb the power of the rest of the magic and slayers around the world and then poof, one slayer takes Angel and goes sealing the portal thingy as we saw in Fray. That one slayer being Faith, of course.

And Buffy could continue with Season 9.

I'm not very good at speculating things, so I hope you'll excuse my ramblings if it sounds stupid.
 
When I first found out Angel was Twilight I was mad then in denial and now I'm trying to get to the acceptance stage...I re-read all the comics and have a whole list of possible reasoning and some quotes that just really sound ooc. I think that if it was Angelus it would be too easy to explain away everything so I do think it is Angel and although I have some reservations I do trust Joss and company and if he's been planning it for 4 years then he must have good reasoning and a good explination behind it all...and if not I will be very mad! God I wish we had #33 and #34 in our hands right now!
 
B
bunchofmulch111
took the words out of my mouth! Or head, as the case may be
UUGGHH. I wish I could teleport the issue into my hand right now. On BF, they're talking about all the possible "hints" we've given as to that Twilight has been Angel. Where have I been? Guess I missed most of those hints. If I didn't have all this homework to do all the time, I'd go ahead and re-read all of Season 8 RIGHT NOW.
 
Kean
Kean
I'm doing just that now and we so got hints, but I don't think we could have said they led to Angel with any sort of conviction without the reveal.
One such 'hint' was in 'A Beautiful Sunset' when Buffy and Twilght were fighting, and she tried for the same move she'd used to kill Caleb in 'Chosen.' However, Twilight deflected the move, and said something like "I know that move" meaning he'd seen her use it before, and since that was the only time she'd used that method of killing, and the only people in the room at the time of her killing Caleb were Buffy herself, Caleb, Angel, Spike and The First, it makes sense that it would have been one of them. Although, if my memory serves, Angel was knocked out at the actual time the killing, or at the very least dazed.
 
One such 'hint' was in 'A Beautiful Sunset' when Buffy and Twilght were fighting, and she tried for the same move she'd used to kill Caleb in 'Chosen.' However, Twilight deflected the move, and said something like "I know that move" meaning he'd seen her use it before, and since that was the only time she'd used that method of killing, and the only people in the room at the time of her killing Caleb were Buffy herself, Caleb, Angel, Spike and The First, it makes sense that it would have been one of them. Although, if my memory serves, Angel was knocked out at the actual time the killing, or at the very least dazed.

You are correct, Lyri. Angel was knocked out at the time the move was used. Buffy had just sliced Caleb in two from the crotch up just as Angel revives from being hit on the head by Caleb.

Angel: Okay, now I'm pissed! Where is he?
Buffy: He had to split.

So, are we supposed to believe that Angel was NOT knocked out at that time, and just faking it? Or that Spike told him?

Also, if my memory is correct, wasn't there an instance where we saw Twilight standing in direct sunlight? How would that work if he was/is Angel?
 
Also, if my memory is correct, wasn't there an instance where we saw Twilight standing in direct sunlight? How would that work if he was/is Angel?

The same wat that he cam now fly. Somehow, his vampiric powers have been enhanced and added to, while his weaknesses and vulnerabilities have been reduced or eliminated altogether.
 
The same wat that he cam now fly. Somehow, his vampiric powers have been enhanced and added to, while his weaknesses and vulnerabilities have been reduced or eliminated altogether.

As far as I can see he has been superheroed up, just like Buffy. Nothing about him has been explicitly vampirish. I suppose it wouldn't though, considering it would give all away.
 
As far as I can see he has been superheroed up, just like Buffy. Nothing about him has been explicitly vampirish. I suppose it wouldn't though, considering it would give all away.

You're right, of course. I was just going on the assumption that both he and Buffy were simply what they had always been, but more powerful at it with a few add-ons, like the ability to fly and to be more resistant to or immune to sunlight combustion. What we apparently have here are two entirely new sets of powers.
 
The same wat that he cam now fly. Somehow, his vampiric powers have been enhanced and added to, while his weaknesses and vulnerabilities have been reduced or eliminated altogether.

For a guy who wants to eliminate magic, he seems to be using quite a bit of it to personally enhance himself.

So, Angel is now the Super Vamp? Kind of like Super Echo?
 
white avenger
white avenger
That assumes that the source of Angel's new powers is, in fact, supernatural and not something like a souped up verson of the chip that device that the Initiative soldiers had in Seasons 4 and 5.
Here's the one scenario I've been able to come up with that would save us from having to consign Angel to villainhood, and Buffy to idiothood for kissing him:

Twilight is actually a future version of Angel... maybe from Fray's time, and maybe having something to do with Future Dark Willow. That would explain why he hates Buffy (something happens in the future); why his personality and way of speaking have changed so much; where he got the fancy tech that allows him to fly, etc., and how he seems to know some things before they happen.

Present Angel comes to help Buffy defeat his future self, which is why she's so friendly with him on the covers. In order to sabotage Twilight, Angel puts on a Twilight suit and pretends to be him, which is why he's dressed that way in Jeanty's cover.

Of course, Angel will want to know what happened in the future to bring him to that point. Trying to find that out will lead to the big apocalypse at the end of the season that banishes magic and vampires (unless they change the future and avert it somehow).
 
M
Megalita
[No message]
W
Wesley
He also could be immune to sunlight or whatever because future Angels shanshu has come to pass and he's not a human using magic.
F
Fredsicle
[No message]
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