Spoiler! Extremely spoilery: Buffy #34 Soliciations.

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Here's the one scenario I've been able to come up with that would save us from having to consign Angel to villainhood, and Buffy to idiothood for kissing him:

Twilight is actually a future version of Angel... maybe from Fray's time, and maybe having something to do with Future Dark Willow. That would explain why he hates Buffy (something happens in the future); why his personality and way of speaking have changed so much; where he got the fancy tech that allows him to fly, etc., and how he seems to know some things before they happen.

Present Angel comes to help Buffy defeat his future self, which is why she's so friendly with him on the covers. In order to sabotage Twilight, Angel puts on a Twilight suit and pretends to be him, which is why he's dressed that way in Jeanty's cover.

Of course, Angel will want to know what happened in the future to bring him to that point. Trying to find that out will lead to the big apocalypse at the end of the season that banishes magic and vampires (unless they change the future and avert it somehow).

Wow, nice theory Andrew. I'm impressed. I sure hope it pans out that way.

*crosses fingers*

 

[Kean]

Here's the one scenario I've been able to come up with that would save us from having to consign Angel to villainhood, and Buffy to idiothood for kissing him:

Twilight is actually a future version of Angel... maybe from Fray's time, and maybe having something to do with Future Dark Willow. That would explain why he hates Buffy (something happens in the future); why his personality and way of speaking have changed so much; where he got the fancy tech that allows him to fly, etc., and how he seems to know some things before they happen.

Present Angel comes to help Buffy defeat his future self, which is why she's so friendly with him on the covers. In order to sabotage Twilight, Angel puts on a Twilight suit and pretends to be him, which is why he's dressed that way in Jeanty's cover.

Of course, Angel will want to know what happened in the future to bring him to that point. Trying to find that out will lead to the big apocalypse at the end of the season that banishes magic and vampires (unless they change the future and avert it somehow).

This is pretty much what I have been thinking too. I think it is the manner in which Twilight speaks, it just isn't Angel in any way at all, at least not Angel as we know him. His speech is very detached, specifically when he is talking to Buffy, almost like he is referring to someone he has read about rather than knew.

Your theory also explains how Buffy goes from what appears to be devastation on Chen's cover of 33 to what looks like an almost desperate relief in Chen's cover in 34.

However they do it I'm fairly certain that the Angel that has been terrorising Buffy in S8 is not the same Angel that has been fighting the good fight in L.A.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Wesley agrees: He also could be immune to sunlight or whatever because future Angels shanshu has come to pass and he's not a human using magic.

Or he's still a vampire, and he needed the suit and mask to protect him from the sunlight.

 

[crimsonsai89]

maybe Twilight IS Angel from the future and he came back to change things or something. And maybe they're s a future Buffy too who sent him back as Twilight to prepare her past self or whatever for whats to come. And like the whole goddess thing was orchestrated by the two of them so that Buffy would become strong enough to do whatever future Buffy needs her to do. The only reason I say this is cos isn't the main big bad of season 8 supposed to be Buffy herself. Plus it makes sense that time travel wud feature in the comic again otherwise what point was there in the Fray arc (other than awesomeness of course)

But with all that said. I still think everyone should relax about the whole kiss thing. I mean the cover cud just be a homage to Valentine's day or something it doesn't necessarily mean Buffy's evil or working with Twilight or whatever. theres tons of possibilities for what (if any) the meaning of that kiss is.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

white avenger agrees: That assumes that the source of Angel's new powers is, in fact, supernatural and not something like a souped up verson of the chip that device that the Initiative soldiers had in Seasons 4 and 5.

True, that is assuming that. Normally, when someone exhibts some sort of unusual ability or power in this 'verse, it's usually due to magic.

I guess we'll see. Eventually.

 

[white avenger]

That would explain why he hates Buffy (something happens in the future); why his personality and way of speaking have changed so much; where he got the fancy tech that allows him to fly, etc., and how he seems to know some things before they happen.

Obviously, Angel gets so ticked off in the future because Buffy rejected him for Spike that he would want revenge. Since he has, indeed, been awarded the Shanshu, he no longer has the power to defeat Spike, so he figuratively, and possibly literally) sells his soul to the devil of Technology, getting a few dozen various implants and super steroid boosts that make him, essentially, an Iron Man-like superhero. (Maybe the Twilight suit is what actually gives him his power)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Here's the one scenario I've been able to come up with that would save us from having to consign Angel to villainhood, and Buffy to idiothood for kissing him:

Twilight is actually a future version of Angel... maybe from Fray's time, and maybe having something to do with Future Dark Willow. That would explain why he hates Buffy (something happens in the future); why his personality and way of speaking have changed so much; where he got the fancy tech that allows him to fly, etc., and how he seems to know some things before they happen.

Present Angel comes to help Buffy defeat his future self, which is why she's so friendly with him on the covers. In order to sabotage Twilight, Angel puts on a Twilight suit and pretends to be him, which is why he's dressed that way in Jeanty's cover.

Of course, Angel will want to know what happened in the future to bring him to that point. Trying to find that out will lead to the big apocalypse at the end of the season that banishes magic and vampires (unless they change the future and avert it somehow).

I agree, more or less. Based on the most recent interview with the high emphasis on Superhero Comics, I think we'll find a comic booky solution.

I think our Buffyverse is Earth Prime, the "real" one. And we've seen two secondary worlds spun off from ours. The Wishverse, was the first alt!reality and Fray's is also an alt!reality.

At this point, I'd guess that Twilight is the Frayverse Angel, just like Dead Dark Willow is their different Willow.

If this is right, at the end of the day, I think Frayverse!Angel is more of an Antihero than a villain.

Perhaps in his early days he fought by Buffy's side and they banished evil together, quite possibly losing her and Connor in the process. That drove him a little crazy and threw him into one of his reclusive states. And finally, seeing how bad Fray's world became, it was the last straw that made him decide to rewrite history, murdering thousands to save hundreds of billions, like TPTB would want.

 

[missbrunettgirl]

I think you guys are definatly on the right track with the sun proof suite thing. I was watching season 5 episode 'Origin' of ANgel and Conner was commenting on the sun not effecting Angel and Angel tells him its special glass and Conner tells him 'you should make a suite out of it like the Pope.' I thought that was really funny that I would stumble on that line now of all tiimes. =)

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I think you guys are definatly on the right track with the sun proof suite thing. I was watching season 5 episode 'Origin' of ANgel and Conner was commenting on the sun not effecting Angel and Angel tells him its special glass and Conner tells him 'you should make a suite out of it like the Pope.' I thought that was really funny that I would stumble on that line now of all tiimes. =)

I thought of that line too 😀

Personally, if those of us who are guessing that Twilight is Frayverse!Angel coming from the future, he'll have hundreds of years to figure out a way to survive the sun. Heck, existing magicks & bobbles have been shown to be powerful enough to get Angel to Twilight-level prowess: (Lindsey's mojo, Gem of Amara, Warren's Magic Balls, etc.). In his 200 year quest, it's not hard to believe that he either found or created comparable items through magic & technology.

 

[Krj2501]

Okay - first off - people keep acting as though everything has been cut & dry or rather there's been a perfect line between good & evil so far in Season 8.

Yet when you reread the entire season(so far) you can find examples of good characters that have acted less than honorable or heroic.

Here's a thought - maybe the reason for Joss having Angel be Twilight is to help show Buffy, the Slayers, and the Scoobies that they haven't been acting like heroes or champions, but instead like a bunch of organized thugs.

Because - for me - I've been feeling for most of the season that Buffy has not be acting like the same Buffy of the TV series - i.e. Heroic, just, and rightous.

Still like many others - I too worry that some how Joss will end up destroying another wonderful & beloved character - After all - the thought that Willow ultimately turns evil again - and ends up being killed by Buffy, in the future - is very depressing.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Here's a thought - maybe the reason for Joss having Angel be Twilight is to help show Buffy, the Slayers, and the Scoobies that they haven't been acting like heroes or champions, but instead like a bunch of organized thugs.

Check out AndrewC's comments... that just doesn't make a whole lot of sense...

 

[Krj2501]

I did check out AndrewC's comments.

For the record I'm not buying the whole idea that just because Angel is Twilight - that automatically means he's evil again.

Nor to I believe that Twilight (Angel) has been truthful about to his "minions" of what his real intentions toward Buffy are.
I believe that's one of the "Red Herrings" that Scott Allie refers to.

Another thing - are we absolutely certain that Twilight(Angel) is the Season 8 "Big Bad"? Because I'm not - I believe there's more to the story that we haven't been told yet.

Still there's also the fact that Joss seems to delight in tormenting his main characters - especially Buffy. And this is right up that alley.

 

[crimsonsai89]

Because - for me - I've been feeling for most of the season that Buffy has not be acting like the same Buffy of the TV series - i.e. Heroic, just, and rightous.

I think it's unfair to say Buffy's not acting righteous or heroic anymore. I mean all of a sudden she's in charge of hundreds of young girls and responsible for protecting and training them. How righteous can she act? and is the fact that she DID take all these girls in and try to protect them rather than give up her calling and let someone take over as head slayer not heroic enough.

I understand that everyone is a little thrown by how different Buffy is in Season 8 but a lot has changed for her. Joss is a character writer and his characters are always believable. If Buffy was the same old Buffy that wouldn't be believable considering how much of her world has changed.

And as for the often complained about theft. She is still human after all.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

I did check out AndrewC's comments.

For the record I'm not buying the whole idea that just because Angel is Twilight - that automatically means he's evil again.

Then you have a very different definition of "evil" than I do.

And the fact is that Buffy and her Slayers haven't been acting like thugs. They've been killing vampires and demons, just like they're supposed to. They haven't been harming humans or trying to establish world domination.

But Twilight seems to think they're going to... which is one of the big reasons I suspect Twilight is a future Angel. Buffy and her Slayers haven't done anything to warrant the kind of attack Twilight has made on them... but it's possible they're destined to do so in the future, and the result is Buffy and Angel becoming mortal enemies. The shock and pain of that might have robbed Angel of his compassion and humanity and turned him into the heartless killer that is Twilight, and he's now travelled back in time to try and short-circuit that future.

The problem is that his attacks haven't just been against Buffy and the Slayers. Those "Vampy Cats" would have turned thousands of innocent children into walking dead, and the manipulations of the "vampires are cool" meme has left all of humanity basically at the mercy of vampires.

I'm sure Twilight/Angel has a reason for doing what he's doing, and that he probably considers justice to be on his side... all evil people convince themselves of that. But evil is as evil does, and it's impossible to see Twilight's actions (and attitude) as anything but evil.

 

[nerd4hire]

Even recently we see Twilight being villainous. That one guy discovered some sort of vague metaphysical spike that leads them to Mongolia looking for Buffy's hideout. When Buffy isn't there Twilight orders that the guy who found the spike be killed.

Then later when the Gods start wiping out Twilight's soldiers, his general advises retreat, or all his men will all be killed. Twilight says something like "Nah, I wanna watch".

Conversely Buffy orders all her wounded be rounded up, and they retreat which kind of shows a clear separation between "Buffy's way", and "Twilight's way".

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Still like many others - I too worry that some how Joss will end up destroying another wonderful & beloved character - After all - the thought that Willow ultimately turns evil again - and ends up being killed by Buffy, in the future - is very depressing.

This is excatly my concern. I really hope that Joss doesn't make Angel evil. I'm hoping that it turns out that PresentAngel is trying to kill FutureAngel and that Buffy will have a hand in bringing him down.

 

[white avenger]

This is excatly my concern. I really hope that Joss doesn't make Angel evil. I'm hoping that it turns out that PresentAngel is trying to kill FutureAngel and that Buffy will have a hand in bringing him down.

Either way, it's gonna be a "been there, done that" scenario, and, honestly, that just seems kinda lazy on Joss' part. It's like he doesn't want to devote the time to coming up with a new, original Big Bad. He's already done that once in Season 7, by souping up a minor character from a previous season and making it the villain, and then again by bringing back Dark Willow this season.

 

[Kean]

Either way, it's gonna be a "been there, done that" scenario, and, honestly, that just seems kinda lazy on Joss' part. It's like he doesn't want to devote the time to coming up with a new, original Big Bad. He's already done that once in Season 7, by souping up a minor character from a previous season and making it the villain, and then again by bringing back Dark Willow this season.

On the other hand if what is going on ties in directly to THE apocalypse and the Frayverse (which I think it does) then what Joss is doing is actually tackling the major questions of the verse. This season isn't the usualy run of the mill Big Bad. It's something totally different that we don't even know yet.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Well, I don't remember Joss ever having two different Angels from two different times fight each other... so that would be new.

It would also satisfy the prophecy of Angel trying to destroy the world (or succeeding, depending on how this turns out) without OUR Angel having to sacrifice his heroism. He might have to sacrifice the Shanshu, though.

Angel/Twilight could parallel Willow/Future Dark Willow, and the actions of T and FDW could be closely interconnected... though whether as allies or enemies, I don't know.

 

[Kean]

It would also satisfy the prophecy of Angel trying to destroy the world (or succeeding, depending on how this turns out) without OUR Angel having to sacrifice his heroism. He might have to sacrifice the Shanshu, though.

I agree, once I calmed down the first thing I thought of was how this alligns the prophecy of Angel being a major player in the apocalypse and also why it has always been vague as to which side he would be on.

On the Shanshu point, why do you think he would have to sacrifice it?

I think the events of ATF have proven that he can't sacrifice it, even when he tries to.