Spoiler! Extremely spoilery: Buffy #34 Soliciations.

[white avenger]

No, we haven't had Present Angel ever fight Future Angel, but we have had Angel as the Big Bad attempting to destroy the world ( okay, AngelUS, if you want to split hairs), and we've had Angel, good, fight Angelus, bad, even if it was a more or less dream sequence. I personally don't see a whole lot of difference.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

On the Shanshu point, why do you think he would have to sacrifice it?

In order to defeat Twilight, Present!Angel would have to derail the timeline that leads to him. If Twilight is the version of Angel who's about to bring about the Apocalypse, then he's the one within reach of the Shanshu. If Twilight is the one to fulfill the prophecy and Shanshu, then short-circuiting him might negate the prophecy altogether.

The prophecy didn't say whether Angel was destined to fight on the side of good or evil... what if he's destined to fight on both sides? Maybe Twilight will die and Angel will Shanshu. Who knows?

I fear it might come down to a question of Present!Angel sacrificing himself in order to erase his future self from existence. I don't think Joss will do that (and IDW would scream bloody murder if he did) but it might be threatened as a possibility...

Of course, this whole "two Angels" theory of mine might be just a fart in a windstorm anyway. Probably is. Joss and I don't think the same way at all, and I've never been good at predicting him.

 

[white avenger]

The prophecy didn't say whether Angel was destined to fight on the side of good or evil... what if he's destined to fight on both sides? Maybe Twilight will die and Angel will Shanshu. Who knows?

The Senior Partners told Angel in ATF (well, their representatives, anyhow, beyond that gets into a completely different spoiler area), that he would, in fact, be awarded the Shanshu for his role in the upcoming apocalypse for fighting ON THEIR SIDE. So, if they were truthful about the Shanshu even existing, then they are probably truthful about that part as well. That might, in fact, even explain why Future Angel, if that is, indeed, what he really is, would be Twilight. Somehow or other, sometime in the future, Angel will, in fact, turn evil, and he, not Angelus, will fight on the side of the Senior Partners.

If that is true, however, why would Future Angel have any reason whatsoever for traveling back into the past and trying to destroy all of the supernatural forces on earth, since in doing so, he would eliminate the very force responsible for him existing as he obviously does in the future? On the other hand, why would Present Angel, forewarned about what he would become in the future, allow such a thing to actually happen, when all that he would have to do to stop it would be to follow Buffy's example in Season 5 and Spike's example in Season 7? Of course, they both came back, so in his case, suicide/self sacrifice might very well just be a futile gesture.

The Future/Present Angels explanation just might create more problems than it solves.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

If Twilight is the version of Angel who's about to bring about the Apocalypse, then he's the one within reach of the Shanshu. If Twilight is the one to fulfill the prophecy and Shanshu, then short-circuiting him might negate the prophecy altogether.

The prophecy didn't say whether Angel was destined to fight on the side of good or evil... what if he's destined to fight on both sides? Maybe Twilight will die and Angel will Shanshu. Who knows?

You see, I've always thought the whole "Sacrificing the Shanshu" deal has been a red herring all along (since AS5).

It's a prophecy not a gift certificate. I think it's going to happen whether Angel wants it or not. I don't think TPTB, W&H or the First can stop Angel from eventually becoming human in the mainstream time line.

The only circumstances where the Shanshu will actually benefit Angel is if evil's been beaten back and Buffy and Connor want to settle down and have a normal life with him. Otherwise, the Shanshu will wind up as more of a punishment & handicap to Angel, as we've seen in "I Will Remember You" and "After the Fall."

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Copy and pasting this from a post I made on another board...

Here is the greatest piece of evidence for the Twilight=Future Angel hypothesis:

In A Beautiful Sunset, he tells Buffy "you have brought about disaster, and it falls to me to avert it."

Now, obviously the Slayers have done nothing YET that could be defined as "disaster." And Twilight says he has to "avert" it... not correct it, not punish it. Avert it. You avert something that hasn't happened yet.

How would he know Buffy was going to bring about a disaster he had to avert if he wasn't from the future?

There's prophecy, of course. But can anyone here picture Angel doing the extreme things Twilight has done based on the say-so of some prophecy? Because if so, he REALLY needed to apologize some more to poor Wesley for that smothering-with-a-pillow business.

Also (re-reading Twilight's dialog in ABS)... at what point during the few months since AtF did Angel start talking like the Phantom of the Opera? Saying stuff like "Know this, girl..." Kind of an extreme personality change for such a short time, eh?

 

[Kean]

Copy and pasting this from a post I made on another board...

Here is the greatest piece of evidence for the Twilight=Future Angel hypothesis:

In A Beautiful Sunset, he tells Buffy "you have brought about disaster, and it falls to me to avert it."

Now, obviously the Slayers have done nothing YET that could be defined as "disaster." And Twilight says he has to "avert" it... not correct it, not punish it. Avert it. You avert something that hasn't happened yet.

How would he know Buffy was going to bring about a disaster he had to avert if he wasn't from the future?

There's prophecy, of course. But can anyone here picture Angel doing the extreme things Twilight has done based on the say-so of some prophecy? Because if so, he REALLY needed to apologize some more to poor Wesley for that smothering-with-a-pillow business.

Also (re-reading Twilight's dialog in ABS)... at what point during the few months since AtF did Angel start talking like the Phantom of the Opera? Saying stuff like "Know this, girl..." Kind of an extreme personality change for such a short time, eh?

Yup, the Angel talking ABS is not our Angel. That is a certainty. He appears to have huge distaste for Buffy so I think that further gives credence to your theory that Present!Angel comes to help with what is happening. I can't see our Buffy or Twilight wanting to be intimate with each other at all.

Also, I think Twilight is gona tell them some truly horrifying truths and what they have to do in the present to stop that future coming to pass is what has caused all the agonising poses for the covers.

 

[Emzzie]

Ok, I'm going to be really honest about how I feel about this.

If Angel is pure evil and is Twilight, then I'm a bit angry. Its silly and I see no way, no matter how complicated, that would explain him being able to or even ordering someone else to torture those slayers. It was pure evil and was done by somebody who was most likely insane and twisted. I'm not that creative though. I know you are all debating on here about how he could be evil and such. I dont disagree with any of your ideas, I just don't feel like brainstorming as I will most likely turn purple with anger or get really confused. I'm just going to stick to my opinion and wait to let the comics explain it for me.

We know Angel is Twilight but if somehow he is still good and it will be explained, then I'm just really angry that he is all over Buffy. I'm a spuffy as you all know, and these covers are not in my liking. Mostly the heart one (which the lovely Kean has informed me is a joke anyways *thanks Kean!* ). I mean, I thought Buffy did not trust him anymore? And really, Spike would NOT let Angel get the girl. ever.

So to be honest, of course I should want Angel to be good, but I don't. I want to see him bad, as I loved seeing Angelus. I dont think I'd mind Buffy being with him if he is bad too, as my reasonings for loving Spuffy is that I'm always drawn to the bad boys. She can kiss him if he is bad, but if he is good, I just want my Spikey!

 

[Kean]

I mean, I thought Buffy did not trust him anymore?

You're talking about whole ordeal with Dana in Damage right? Buffy knew nothing of that as far as we know. Andrew was under orders (pressumbaly from Giles) but they were not from Buffy. He made a whole story for Spike and Angel about Buffy and the Immortal when they came to Rome. The "Buffy" that we saw in the Girl in Question was of the two decoy Buffys. The other was the slayer killed in The Chain (issue 5).

To me anyway, as it stands, we can pressume that Buffy trusts Angel just as she always has.

(Sidenote: Buffy thinking that Angel has gone over to the darkside in ATS S5 is no more believable than the idea of Present!Angel being Twilight and thinking Buffy has changed hat to black.)

---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 AM ----------

Emzzie agrees: oh ok. So Andrew made it up, or he got the orders from one of the decoys? Sorry, I'm still confused.

What Andrew told Spike and Angel in Rome was basically lies sugar coated in truth. At the start of S8 there were officially 3 Buffys. The real Buffy in Scotland, our chic living it up in Rome and another girl who was sent on a secret mission underground (literally). So technically "Buffy" was living the high life in Rome with the Immortal but she wasn't our girl.

Given the fact Buffy knows nothing about Angel and Spike coming to Rome in season 8 it has basically been assumed that everything Andrew said during Damage and TGIQ that directly relates to Buffy and her stance on Angel and Spike are lies. Andrew told Angel that he was working under Buffy's orders in taking Dana into Watcher's Council custody but is established in s8 that for all intents and purposes Giles is the council and given his refusal to help Angel contact Willow to help Fred the assumption is that Andrew was taking orders from Giles during Damage and possibly to a lesser extent in TGIQ.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

You're talking about whole ordeal with Dana in Damage right? Buffy knew nothing of that as far as we know. Andrew was under orders (pressumbaly from Giles) but they were not from Buffy. He made a whole story for Spike and Angel about Buffy and the Immortal when they came to Rome. The "Buffy" that we saw in the Girl in Question was of the two decoy Buffys. The other was the slayer killed in The Chain (issue 5).

To me anyway, as it stands, we can pressume that Buffy trusts Angel just as she always has.

Well, she's dreamed about him at least 3 times in this season... two of the dreams were sexual, and in the other she asked him for advice. Doesn't sound like she hates or distrusts him much.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, she's dreamed about him at least 3 times in this season... two of the dreams were sexual, and in the other she asked him for advice. Doesn't sound like she hates or distrusts him much.

Like you and Kean, I think we all agree on that. Based on what we've seen, Buffy's most recent intel on Angel is from Willow & Faith's visit to the Hyperion in AS4. I remember she made fun of Cordy in S8 months back, so there's almost the implication that she hasn't heard legit LA intel since AS4 and is functioning under the assumption that Angel is still working out of the Hyperion with Cordy & Wes.

I'd guess that Xander's probably complicit in the misinformation campaign, but I doubt Willow is...

I think it actually makes most sense to have Giles, Andrew and Xander actively keeping Angel & Spike away from Buffy since there's little other reason as to why Angel's team wouldn't have "cowboyed-up" earlier to help Buffy against this worldwide manhunt.

Heck, Illyria alone might have evened the playing field in the most recent battle...

 

[Krj2501]

I had another thought how this could play out - and yet make sense.

What if - Twilight is actually Angelus.

Maybe at some point between Aftermath & Season 8, Wolfram & Hart got tired of Angel attempting to disrupt their plans, decided to seperate Angel & Angelus. Then they basically inprisoned Angel, to make him watch as Angelus wrecks havok. They also sup-up Angelus to make him a more powerful leader, aka Twilight.

This would explain why - Twilight is seems so evil. Basically because he is.
And yet it would also allow for the good side of Angel to still exist, and possible be rescued at season's end.

But either way we're going to have to see how Joss plays it out.

 

[Kean]

I'd guess that Xander's probably complicit in the misinformation campaign, but I doubt Willow is...

I think it actually makes most sense to have Giles, Andrew and Xander actively keeping Angel & Spike away from Buffy since there's little other reason as to why Angel's team wouldn't have "cowboyed-up" earlier to help Buffy against this worldwide manhunt.

Heck, Illyria alone might have evened the playing field in the most recent battle...

Lads, have we had anymore talk on who the mole is?

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 PM ----------

Also, Allie has sent out a mature warning note to distributers for this issue.

Confirmed: Buffy Spoiler All About The Sales re Maturing | Bleeding Cool Comic Book News and Rumors

He says there is no more nudity or violence in it then Faith's dress burning issue or Willow making sexy time with the demon lady but Metzler has instructed him that what is being dealt with is so intense that it needs the warning.

Buffy and Angel will hardly sleep together? that just seems, well suicidal springs to mind. Although over on Buffyfest one of the blogs put out the theory months ago that Angel was Twilight but also that by the end of the season Buffy will be pregnant. They referred to Buffy being called the Queen several times throughout the book and also in Anywhere But Here the symbolism of the red egg (fertility) and Buffy being told that they had to protect "The Prince".

This is all very fanwanky but it was the first thing I thought of when I read the above article.

 

[Lyri]

Lads, have we had anymore talk on who the mole is?

Considering what's going on, and how confusing everything has just gotten, I wouldn't be surprised if Buffy herself was the mole.

I'm discounting everyone else based purely on the cover of...what is it? #35? Faith looks shocked to the core, Dawn looks like she wants to castrate Angel, Willow looks confused, Xander looks blank and Giles looks sorta smug.

 

[Kean]

Considering what's going on, and how confusing everything has just gotten, I wouldn't be surprised if Buffy herself was the mole.

I'm discounting everyone else based purely on the cover of...what is it? #35? Faith looks shocked to the core, Dawn looks like she wants to castrate Angel, Willow looks confused, Xander looks blank and Giles looks sorta smug.

I think Giles is our man. He has shown time and again that he will do whatever it takes to save the world (wanting to kill Dawn, actually killing Ben and killing Lady Geneveive).

I could totally see Twilight (Future!Angel) coming to Giles with the reality of the bleak future ahead of them and telling him it had to be stopped.

 

[Tranquillity]

Kean wrote:

You're talking about whole ordeal with Dana in Damage right? Buffy knew nothing of that as far as we know. Andrew was under orders (pressumbaly from Giles) but they were not from Buffy.

Well, we don't know that for sure either. I have no trouble believeing that Buffy withdrew trust from Angel, who afterall, was CEO of a notoriously evil law firm at the time.

 

[Kean]

Kean wrote:


Well, we don't know that for sure either. I have no trouble believeing that Buffy withdrew trust from Angel, who afterall, was CEO of a notoriously evil law firm at the time.

I suppose that ultimately is a matter of opinion but to me Buffy wouldn't take anyone's word that Angel had gone darkside, even at W&H. She would have to see it to believe it.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, we don't know that for sure either. I have no trouble believeing that Buffy withdrew trust from Angel, who afterall, was CEO of a notoriously evil law firm at the time.

I'd have trouble believing Buffy would double-cross Angel on a mission of good without speaking to him about his supposed turn to the dark side.

You're right, if Buffy thought Angel had crossed the line, she'd turn on him, but would she really believe that from second-hand word-of-mouth from Giles & Andrew?

I doubt it, since if that were the case, Giles would have had her turn on Angel & Spike from day 1.

To me, the implication seems to be that in the onset, Giles was subverting Buffy's authority when he deemed it necessary, using assets like Andrew, Faith, and probably Xander.

Based on Buffy titles, we have no reason to believe that Buffy even knew about Angel running W&H. Imo, the few hints we've gotten imply that her most recent news from LA was from BS7, since her remarks about Cordy make a lot more sense if she thinks she's still alive...

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Anyone seen this yet?

It's a statement from Bill Willingham (writer on Angel series) in response to Scott Allie's statement regarding his interview, which included the comment as you all know:

"This isn't going to be some big conflict with the IDW continuity."

Hmm. It seems as though Bill disagrees:

I would like to respond to your article of January 8th, titled BEHIND BUFFY'S TWILIGHT REVEAL, and clear up a few points, making clear that I am speaking only for myself, not IDW or Fox.

Five scripts in, and counting, on IDW's ongoing Angel comic book series, I am not coordinating, nor have I ever coordinated stories with Scott Allie, Joss Whedon, nor anyone else at Dark Horse Comics. No one at IDW has ever instructed me, or suggested to me, ways in which I might conform my scripts to what is going on with Dark Horse's Buffy comics, which I've purposely not read, specifically to avoid being influenced by them. I've had exactly one short conversation, in passing, with Joss Whedon, which took place years ago and had nothing to do with these matters. To my knowledge I've never had a conversation with Scott Allie, beyond being introduced to him, at conventions and such, though I doubt even that much contact has occurred. I have however been told, in no uncertain terms, that Mr. Whedon is not available for contact concerning anything to do with the Angel series at IDW, because he is only working with Dark Horse. So I'm not sure how Scott Allie imagines he and Mr. Whedon plan to coordinate IDW's Angel series into their Buffy series, as is implied in the seventh paragraph of your article.

For Allie to suggest that he is in coordination with IDW, as he did in that seventh paragraph, is grossly misleading, at best. By intentionally allowing, encouraging in fact, the notion to exist among the comics reading public, that Whedon and Dark Horse are in any way steering, or influencing, the stories I help to produce in IDW's ongoing Angel series, Allie and Whedon are committing what is tantamount to taking credit for the work of others, a repugnant practice in any business, although I understand it is all too common in some.
As long as I am writing the Angel series for IDW, I will not be coordinating stories with any Dark Horse comic, period.

...Wow.

This just threw my entire world upside down and completely crushed what little hope I had.

Is he saying that which I think he is saying? That he has and has never had any contact with Whedon and Co. regarding the continuity between the two series? Should we still consider ATF as canon? I am so confused.

Does this mean that Angel is indeed...really evil? THat what he's been doing in L.A...is not canon?

Someone please help me. I am confused.

The Buffy/Angel Continuity Conundrum - Comic Book Resources

 

[Kean]

Anyone seen this yet?

It's a statement from Bill Willingham (writer on Angel series) in response to Scott Allie's statement regarding his interview, which included the comment as you all know:



Hmm. It seems as though Bill disagrees:



...Wow.

This just threw my entire world upside down and completely crushed what little hope I had.

Is he saying that which I think he is saying? That he has and has never had any contact with Whedon and Co. regarding the continuity between the two series? Should we still consider ATF as canon? I am so confused.

Does this mean that Angel is indeed...really evil? THat what he's been doing in L.A...is not canon?

Someone please help me. I am confused.

The Buffy/Angel Continuity Conundrum - Comic Book Resources

Breath Joan, breath!

Bill Willingham is writing the current arc of Angel over at IDW. He reacted to the whole Twilightgate last night with that post, personally I find it a kneejerk reaction.

As it stands the only official canon of Angel we know for definite is ATF (Issues 1-16). Willingham confirmed what we had already suspected that Joss has had no involvement with IDW post ATF.

That in no way contradicts what Allie said. S8 won't mess with anything that IDW have done with Angel, canonical or not.

We have been given no definite time period of S8. While Joss said something like a year and half there has nothing in the comics nor from the creative team behind that has said it is definitely a year and a half after Chosen. So there is alot of scope for the allowance of time between Angel on IDW and S8.

None of this in anyway insinuates that Present!Angel is evil.

 

[Emzzie]

All I have to say to that is, WTF?
Honestly that makes me kind of mad. These people need to get it together. I cant help you with that Joan because I'm as confused as you are. How could they have NEVER talked? And Angel being evil...hmm.

Yup, my brain hurts.


EDIT: Nevermind! Thanks for clearing that up Kean!