Wesley Pryce
Angel Investigations
How was Faith and her redemption story handled?
I voted "very well". I loved it,and thought it was done quite masterfully. 🙂
I voted "very well". I loved it,and thought it was done quite masterfully. 🙂
Faith and her redempton story
- Thread starter Wesley Pryce
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Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Excellently.
For me any character that killed innocent people, while souled or unsouled should seek redemption, I dont count Warren, Ben or the knights of Byzantium as innocent, so dont think their murderers need to redeem themselves.
But every other character should, and any that dont can't be proper good guys. Faith is the perfect example of redemption, we saw her go from good to bad to good again, and we really saw the change without changing her character, her episodes in Angel were she helps put down Angelus are some of the best episodes of Angel and her character has actually stayed consistent even into the comics were other characters have been skewed.
For me any character that killed innocent people, while souled or unsouled should seek redemption, I dont count Warren, Ben or the knights of Byzantium as innocent, so dont think their murderers need to redeem themselves.
But every other character should, and any that dont can't be proper good guys. Faith is the perfect example of redemption, we saw her go from good to bad to good again, and we really saw the change without changing her character, her episodes in Angel were she helps put down Angelus are some of the best episodes of Angel and her character has actually stayed consistent even into the comics were other characters have been skewed.
white avenger
white avenger
Of all the so called redemption seekers in the Buffyverse, Faith is the only one who actually makes some effort to acknowledge her guilt and actually accept her punishment, even though circumstances required her to break out of prison. Willow and Angel commit murder, Angel tries to destroy the world, not once, but twice, Buffy robs a bank in Switzerland, and the most that we get from any of them is a sincere, "Sorry about that, and I'll try to do better next time. No guarantees, though, cause I may take it upon myself to decide that the greater good is served by killing, robbing, or altering someone else's memory again."
At least Faith stands trial for, and accepts her punishment for, the crimes that she committed.
Then again, breaking out of prison to stop an evil vampire's plans might be considered one of those "greater good" excuses that I mentioned above, so maybe her sincerity was overruled by developing circumstances just like the others. Still, she at least tried to accept her punishment for the crimes that she committed, which puts her far above Willow, Angel, Buffy, or (I know someone is just hoping that I would forget) Spike.
I would have to give her a "somewhat well" for being the only one who at least tried to accept the consequences of her crimes.
At least Faith stands trial for, and accepts her punishment for, the crimes that she committed.
Then again, breaking out of prison to stop an evil vampire's plans might be considered one of those "greater good" excuses that I mentioned above, so maybe her sincerity was overruled by developing circumstances just like the others. Still, she at least tried to accept her punishment for the crimes that she committed, which puts her far above Willow, Angel, Buffy, or (I know someone is just hoping that I would forget) Spike.
I would have to give her a "somewhat well" for being the only one who at least tried to accept the consequences of her crimes.
EVIL UU
Scooby
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[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]
I think that the comics completely destroyed Faith's redemption arc. In "No Future for Your" she is still willing to kill for money. Faith's as rotten as she's ever been, the only things that change are her sugar daddies and she'll still do anything to please them. Sidebar, it takes a special kind of pig to act like Faith acts towards Buffy in season 7 after what she's done to her in "Who Are You?" I mean, seriously.
I think that the comics completely destroyed Faith's redemption arc. In "No Future for Your" she is still willing to kill for money. Faith's as rotten as she's ever been, the only things that change are her sugar daddies and she'll still do anything to please them. Sidebar, it takes a special kind of pig to act like Faith acts towards Buffy in season 7 after what she's done to her in "Who Are You?" I mean, seriously.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
She doesn't do it for money, she does it under the original deal of a new identity, and by the end of the arc she doesn't take it.
Plus the person she killed was a murderous slayer, so she was fighting a demon hybrid same as any vampire.
Yeah, I feel the whole thing was done really well. She begins to feel remorse for her actions upon leaving Sunnydale in Season 4, but she believes that it's too late for salvation so that's why she continues down the dark path upon her arrival in Los Angeles, and begs for Angel to kill her during their fight. Then, through Angel's intervention, she begins her path of redemption
Wesley Pryce
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EVIL UU
Scooby
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[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]
GILES:If you accept my assignment, I can offer you safe passage to the nation of your choosing. You'll be given a generous annual stipend and be permitted to live out the rest of your days however you see fit.
Money's a part of the deal. Like lots of money.
After her target is already dead.
I don't have a problem with the killing. The mechanism bugs me. It's the same shit Faith did with The Major, kill for some old fart in exchange for money and comfortable life. She hasn't changed, hasn't grown at all, her entire redemption arc just goes down the drain in season 8. Fighting the good fight? Bollocks. Faith's still nothing but a killer for hire. I was expecting I ain't killing for money anymore or Keep the cash Rupert, I'll do it 'cause it has to be done or something else compatible with Faith's development on the shows. But no, of course not.
GILES:If you accept my assignment, I can offer you safe passage to the nation of your choosing. You'll be given a generous annual stipend and be permitted to live out the rest of your days however you see fit.
Money's a part of the deal. Like lots of money.
After her target is already dead.
I don't have a problem with the killing. The mechanism bugs me. It's the same shit Faith did with The Major, kill for some old fart in exchange for money and comfortable life. She hasn't changed, hasn't grown at all, her entire redemption arc just goes down the drain in season 8. Fighting the good fight? Bollocks. Faith's still nothing but a killer for hire. I was expecting I ain't killing for money anymore or Keep the cash Rupert, I'll do it 'cause it has to be done or something else compatible with Faith's development on the shows. But no, of course not.
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Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
But that is what happens in the end.
I actually hadn't copped the parallel between Giles and The Mayor, but I dont think Faith would have done it if it was a normal human, I think the only reason she agreed to it was becasue it was a bad slayer, and she wouldn't have agreed to do it if Giles wanted to have a human killed.
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Scooby
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[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]
What's important to me is that Faith still agrees to kill for money. She changes her mind after the girl is dead. Yeah, wow, who cares.
I don't think it would have made any difference to her if the situation had been exactly the same. Dead slayer, prophesied apocalypse and so on. Faith hunting a rogue slayer as the Council's goon - now that's a parallel.
What's important to me is that Faith still agrees to kill for money. She changes her mind after the girl is dead. Yeah, wow, who cares.
I don't think it would have made any difference to her if the situation had been exactly the same. Dead slayer, prophesied apocalypse and so on. Faith hunting a rogue slayer as the Council's goon - now that's a parallel.
The Scourge
Scooby
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Her redemption on Angel was very well done. On Buffy, it felt glossed over. The could have cut out some pointless bitching by the new Slayers and focused on Faith interacting more with with Buffy and the Scoobies.
I think Faith still has a long way to go. When you're so broken like she is, it's hard get over who you were. But she has made insane progress, she's one of my favorite character because her story is very well done. I think an important aspect to her redemption would be making amends with Buffy though.
Wesley Pryce
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ladydorotea
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I am not sure making amends with Buffy is either plausible or in any way important aspect for Faith's redemption. Let Buffy stay Buffy at least in this one aspect of being mistrustful of, and not liking Faith. Making these two closer than they already are will take the zest out of the verse entirely, and making Faith feel better is not that terribly important for her redemption. I would rather like to see Faith ruminate some more on her quick period of enjoying torture and where did she get that handbook on 4 different kinds of torture groups ? I always felt that all the time they spent on her atoning for her 'crimes of passion' - such as all her killings and her stealing of Buffy's body was fine, but her redemption story sort of danced around that unexplained episode with her coldly and artfully hurting Wesley for hours with her own hands just for the heck of it. And she was not a soulless vampire. And no, I don't like her much as a character but her redemption story at least was solid, exactly because she was never given the absolution or cart blanch.
Wesley Pryce
Angel Investigations
[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION],I think Faith tried to make amends with Buffy but Buffy is still very angry towards her,understandably so. I hope she will keep trying,but eventually Buffy has to be willing to forgive Faith,its a two way street.
I agree, and I also think that Buffy has the right not to forgive her. I also believe that you shouldn't stop trying even if someone doesn't want to forgive you.
Wesley Pryce
Buffy certainly has that right,I agree :)
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I remember when Giles says to Buffy "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it." ('I only have eyes for you'.) Wise words.
It's also worth noting that Buffy has no problems forgiving some people : Spike or Willow for example. Yet Faith, who's done more than both of them to atone for her wrongs, just gets punched in the face a couple of times, and gets accused of undermining Buffy's 'leadership'. Buffy is even pleased when Spike mentions that he punched Faith a few times (he assaulted her for no real reason- way to go ensouled Spike 😡).
I don't get the whole 'Faith had a real nerve acting the way she did', under the circumstances she acted as best she could. (I guess she could've actually told Buffy 'I'm sorry for everything I did' but then there's the whole 'If you apologise to me I will beat you to death'... thing) 🙁
Oh, and the whole Season 8 assassin thing- Giles tells Faith that this girl (the slayer she's supposed to kill) is going to endanger the entire world, she has no reason to doubt him.
When Faith discovers the truth she becomes very reluctant to cold-bloodedly murder the (fairly psychotic) slayer, and instead tries to help her/ convince her that Rodin is bad news.
The fact that she ended up killing the girl in the end was 1) self-defence and 2) clearly an accident. Since during the entire fight she's trying to talk the other girl down.
To say that Faith 'just goes back to killing' is a gross simplification.
In the end Faith decides not to take the easy way out and rededicated herself to helping those slayers who need it. In my book, that's staying completly within her character arc.
It's also worth noting that Buffy has no problems forgiving some people : Spike or Willow for example. Yet Faith, who's done more than both of them to atone for her wrongs, just gets punched in the face a couple of times, and gets accused of undermining Buffy's 'leadership'. Buffy is even pleased when Spike mentions that he punched Faith a few times (he assaulted her for no real reason- way to go ensouled Spike 😡).
I don't get the whole 'Faith had a real nerve acting the way she did', under the circumstances she acted as best she could. (I guess she could've actually told Buffy 'I'm sorry for everything I did' but then there's the whole 'If you apologise to me I will beat you to death'... thing) 🙁
Oh, and the whole Season 8 assassin thing- Giles tells Faith that this girl (the slayer she's supposed to kill) is going to endanger the entire world, she has no reason to doubt him.
When Faith discovers the truth she becomes very reluctant to cold-bloodedly murder the (fairly psychotic) slayer, and instead tries to help her/ convince her that Rodin is bad news.
The fact that she ended up killing the girl in the end was 1) self-defence and 2) clearly an accident. Since during the entire fight she's trying to talk the other girl down.
To say that Faith 'just goes back to killing' is a gross simplification.
In the end Faith decides not to take the easy way out and rededicated herself to helping those slayers who need it. In my book, that's staying completly within her character arc.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Spike tried to rape Buffy, he tried his damnest- but failed because she fought him off.
And the body-swap wasn't rape, it was a body-swap. It would be more accurate to call it I violation more than anything else. The word 'rape' gets thrown around way too often. 😡
You could argue that Faith raped Riley, except he took the intiative during sex and he was in control of the situation the entire time.
And by the end of 'Sanctuary' Buffy learns that Faith is full of remorse, tried to get Angel to kill her, and is willing to go to jail for the rest of her young life (25 yrs). That's accepting your punishment for the things you did wrong. Shouldn't that figure into Buffy's thinking three years later when Faith comes to help during the apocolypse?
And the body-swap wasn't rape, it was a body-swap. It would be more accurate to call it I violation more than anything else. The word 'rape' gets thrown around way too often. 😡
You could argue that Faith raped Riley, except he took the intiative during sex and he was in control of the situation the entire time.
And by the end of 'Sanctuary' Buffy learns that Faith is full of remorse, tried to get Angel to kill her, and is willing to go to jail for the rest of her young life (25 yrs). That's accepting your punishment for the things you did wrong. Shouldn't that figure into Buffy's thinking three years later when Faith comes to help during the apocolypse?
Faith really messed up her life, most people go through a period where they do... that's called bad behavior, folks.
Faith had it worse than most- she did rape Xander (episode: Consequences, he says "no" she just doesn't stop), tried to commit murder of a number of people, so the Scoobies have good reason to be mad at her. I like Giles position on this, he's sort-of a 'father figure' for them, and Liam (Angel) is also her counciler (and she- his, at times)., Think about it- both of them are psychopaths in their own right who are trying to amend their ways- That's Inventive!
He tries to kill the entire human race- Especially to get at the girl he loved, they fight, and he winds up in an eternal prison, to put it another way: man's girlfriend is a cop, they do something unexceptable, and for about a year- are (he is anyway) trying to kill her, when he tries to kill her friends, they fight, he loses due to some stupid mistake, and he winds up locked up!
Angelus is the quintesntail psychopathic boyfriend, basically.
The authors put in a distinct 'alcoholic' context with him: he's always one drink away. (watch the DVD interview to Angel season 1 to find where I got that idea- it's in there- the alcoholic reference, anyway).
Well, Faith- she got addicted to violence... I am running through every episode where she is 'touching the darkness'- INCLUDING Consequences, in my head- she was a very messed up young woman! Each of the characters needed to straighten their lives out to some degree or another!
Faith had it worse than most- she did rape Xander (episode: Consequences, he says "no" she just doesn't stop), tried to commit murder of a number of people, so the Scoobies have good reason to be mad at her. I like Giles position on this, he's sort-of a 'father figure' for them, and Liam (Angel) is also her counciler (and she- his, at times)., Think about it- both of them are psychopaths in their own right who are trying to amend their ways- That's Inventive!
He tries to kill the entire human race- Especially to get at the girl he loved, they fight, and he winds up in an eternal prison, to put it another way: man's girlfriend is a cop, they do something unexceptable, and for about a year- are (he is anyway) trying to kill her, when he tries to kill her friends, they fight, he loses due to some stupid mistake, and he winds up locked up!
Angelus is the quintesntail psychopathic boyfriend, basically.
The authors put in a distinct 'alcoholic' context with him: he's always one drink away. (watch the DVD interview to Angel season 1 to find where I got that idea- it's in there- the alcoholic reference, anyway).
Well, Faith- she got addicted to violence... I am running through every episode where she is 'touching the darkness'- INCLUDING Consequences, in my head- she was a very messed up young woman! Each of the characters needed to straighten their lives out to some degree or another!
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Oh, btw if 'body-swap' now means rape, does that mean Angel was raped by that old dude? ('Carpe Noctem') 😱
'Cause, I'm just saying, Angel doesn't seem to think so. He takes it in his stride, not like somebody who's been 'raped'...hnm, gosh, I guess he really is a champion. 😛
'Cause, I'm just saying, Angel doesn't seem to think so. He takes it in his stride, not like somebody who's been 'raped'...hnm, gosh, I guess he really is a champion. 😛
Yeah, in that case, his self-control is phenominal to say the least, or maybe it just doesn't phaze him at all to say the least.😎