JustAnnie
~Annie~
LadyLavinia said:
I agree with you. Haven't seen the bedroom episode, but I get your point, and I think your right. To me action means more then words. people can more easily say they forgive someone, then actually do it.
Faith VS. Buffy
- Thread starter XxSlayerxX
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I agree with you. Haven't seen the bedroom episode, but I get your point, and I think your right. To me action means more then words. people can more easily say they forgive someone, then actually do it.
Jill_Valentine
Sacred and Profane
What the bedroom scene was to me (Is there a less fanfictiony name for that scene?) was this.
"Gosh, Buffy it's really hard being you."
"Yes, very hard."
"You must be tougher than I thought."
"Yes, quite tough."
"I respect you, now that I understand how hard it is to be leader."
"Yes, I respect me quite a lot too."
"And I'm sorry I got those potentials killed."
"Yes. It wasn't your fault that it's only okay to recklessly throw away the lives of 16 year olds when I do it. But all the same, from now on I'm leader okay? You're still just there for your good punchin' arms. Now be a good lackey and stand in the doorjamb while I deliver yet another...long...long... speech..."
There are some things that do need to be said, or at least properly acknowledged. Once upon a time, they would have been. Dead Man's Party and the Yoko Factor both benefited immensely from the Scoobies attempting to resolve matters in the open. It's arguable they didn't have time to stop to say everything, but it's equally arguable they didn't have time not to say some of it-at that point, it was very likely that they were all gonna be dead soon. Faith desperately needs Buffy's approval, and she needs it in no uncertain terms. There was, in fairness, a nice moment in the final battle when Buffy handed over the axe (Its an AXE! An AXE!!! Not a SCYTHE!!!) but I think it was an excellent opportunity to exploit the drama between the two characters that was wasted so we could have more ... damn.... speeches...
"Gosh, Buffy it's really hard being you."
"Yes, very hard."
"You must be tougher than I thought."
"Yes, quite tough."
"I respect you, now that I understand how hard it is to be leader."
"Yes, I respect me quite a lot too."
"And I'm sorry I got those potentials killed."
"Yes. It wasn't your fault that it's only okay to recklessly throw away the lives of 16 year olds when I do it. But all the same, from now on I'm leader okay? You're still just there for your good punchin' arms. Now be a good lackey and stand in the doorjamb while I deliver yet another...long...long... speech..."
There are some things that do need to be said, or at least properly acknowledged. Once upon a time, they would have been. Dead Man's Party and the Yoko Factor both benefited immensely from the Scoobies attempting to resolve matters in the open. It's arguable they didn't have time to stop to say everything, but it's equally arguable they didn't have time not to say some of it-at that point, it was very likely that they were all gonna be dead soon. Faith desperately needs Buffy's approval, and she needs it in no uncertain terms. There was, in fairness, a nice moment in the final battle when Buffy handed over the axe (Its an AXE! An AXE!!! Not a SCYTHE!!!) but I think it was an excellent opportunity to exploit the drama between the two characters that was wasted so we could have more ... damn.... speeches...
LadyLavinia said:
I think there's a difference between finally understanding what someone has to live with and forgiving them for the actions they have done. Faith finally realised that Buffy's life wasn't everything she had imagined it to be, but I don't think she will ever forgive Buffy for not initially letting her be apart of it.
SlayerThe
My
Thats what made me dislike Faith at the very beginning. She always just assumed that everything should be hers because shes the Slayer.
It doesn't work that way. Buffy had to work very hard to keep herself alive, not to mention a school life and social one as well. Granted Faith had it tough growing up, but it doesn't give her the right to take everything of Buffy's.
After watching Season 3, it looks like she just wants to fit in with the Scoobs, pre-evilness, but look at the Season 4 bodyswitch, its pretty apparent that shes want to be Buffy.
She wants the family, the support system, the watcher, the lover, but she can't have it because its Buffy's.
Now this probably seems like its an anti-Fatih pro-Buffy speech, but its not.
I think the idea of introducing Faith to Buffy was a terribly bad idea. I think the only reason why Faith was so jealous of Buffy was because of her life. Faith was taught that a Slayer was to work alone, in the dark, and remain hidden from the light. But hey, Buffy did this and she still managed to be the number one Slayer, so why couldn't Faith.
To a Slayer seeing someone else like yourself whos supposed to remain alone but doesn't truly must hurt. They live a good life, but you don't...
Faith may have been good dynamic for the show, but it wasn't good for her character. I believe that if she hadn't come to Sunnydale, she maybe have started her own life, possibly with her own group of scoobesque friends, but she didn't because she got envious of Buffy and she wanted what Buffy had.
So there more equal in terms of selfishness, Faith for being so jealous and Buffy for being so darn greedy (ahh but I'll take a greedy Buffy over no Buffy anyday 🙂)
But as a character and fighter, I'm still standing behind Buffy.
It doesn't work that way. Buffy had to work very hard to keep herself alive, not to mention a school life and social one as well. Granted Faith had it tough growing up, but it doesn't give her the right to take everything of Buffy's.
After watching Season 3, it looks like she just wants to fit in with the Scoobs, pre-evilness, but look at the Season 4 bodyswitch, its pretty apparent that shes want to be Buffy.
She wants the family, the support system, the watcher, the lover, but she can't have it because its Buffy's.
Now this probably seems like its an anti-Fatih pro-Buffy speech, but its not.
I think the idea of introducing Faith to Buffy was a terribly bad idea. I think the only reason why Faith was so jealous of Buffy was because of her life. Faith was taught that a Slayer was to work alone, in the dark, and remain hidden from the light. But hey, Buffy did this and she still managed to be the number one Slayer, so why couldn't Faith.
To a Slayer seeing someone else like yourself whos supposed to remain alone but doesn't truly must hurt. They live a good life, but you don't...
Faith may have been good dynamic for the show, but it wasn't good for her character. I believe that if she hadn't come to Sunnydale, she maybe have started her own life, possibly with her own group of scoobesque friends, but she didn't because she got envious of Buffy and she wanted what Buffy had.
So there more equal in terms of selfishness, Faith for being so jealous and Buffy for being so darn greedy (ahh but I'll take a greedy Buffy over no Buffy anyday 🙂)
But as a character and fighter, I'm still standing behind Buffy.
sugarkisses_xx
Vampire Slayer
Buffy.
Hands down, it has to be Buffy. Faith was fun, cool, and a light spirited character, but when it came down to be a slayer, Buffy was the better one. Faith may have been more dareing, but Buffy took more responsibility to her town. She tried to help everyone, and she made her peace with killing that guy -- Faith couldn't do that, and to me, I don't think Faith was a very good slayer until after Angel helped her find redemption.
But ugh, I agree! Faith was so greedy! She wanted all of what Buffy had, and she came into the show all "I'm the slayer this is my town, give it to me" -- I hated her wanting the Scoobies, and wanting ANGEL. UGH that pissed me off like HELL.
To me, Faith took out everything wrong in her life on Buffy, and I didn't like that at all. While she was a fun version of the slayer, to me, Buffy'll always be the better girl. 😉
Hands down, it has to be Buffy. Faith was fun, cool, and a light spirited character, but when it came down to be a slayer, Buffy was the better one. Faith may have been more dareing, but Buffy took more responsibility to her town. She tried to help everyone, and she made her peace with killing that guy -- Faith couldn't do that, and to me, I don't think Faith was a very good slayer until after Angel helped her find redemption.
But ugh, I agree! Faith was so greedy! She wanted all of what Buffy had, and she came into the show all "I'm the slayer this is my town, give it to me" -- I hated her wanting the Scoobies, and wanting ANGEL. UGH that pissed me off like HELL.
To me, Faith took out everything wrong in her life on Buffy, and I didn't like that at all. While she was a fun version of the slayer, to me, Buffy'll always be the better girl. 😉
Jill_Valentine
Sacred and Profane
Buffy was 50% guilty for the eye crime that was Spuffy. Faith, unless Stockton is unusual as prisons go, has yet to do living corpses in public settings. Isn't there laws against necrophilia, Summers?
I agree with Slayer, The in that Faith would have been far better off if she'd never met Buffy... but nobody deserves to lack all the stuff Buffy had, and shouldn't be expected to live without it. But it wasn't really her watcher that taught her to expect none of that stuff, it was just her life.
It's not greedy to want what most people take for granted. What Faith wanted from Buffy (Oo-er missus...) was really basic stuff - A mom. A home. Friends. Respect. Somebody to tell her she was something. To Faith, Buffy represented the centrepoint of everything absent from her own life. She starts envying what she sees somebody else with every single day. In a way, Faith was justifiably irked - It's supposed to be her time to shine, the age of Faith. In nearly every other way, she was lashing out at innocent people for all the crap that's happened to her, which is less good. Her frustration at being considered first alternate was left unchecked and spiralled to Glenn Close proportions, but the fact is it would have been possible to get through to Faith well before it reached the point of tube feeding. Even when she's so enraged she's putting glass in Wesley's chest, he's still able to rattle her just by telling her he knows her, he's noticed her. But now it sounds like I'm making excuses. Oops. What I'm trying to say is that Faith's trip down Murdery Lane was avoidable, and that her chance at being the kind of hero Buffy is was ruined the second Xander started doing CPR. She has done very, very bad things, but to write her off as incapable of being Buffy's equal on that basis is to say that Angel should have just waited for the snow to stop and gone subathing anyway.
Jesus, here comes that disdain for Buffy again... somebody remind me of The Gift again quick!
I agree with Slayer, The in that Faith would have been far better off if she'd never met Buffy... but nobody deserves to lack all the stuff Buffy had, and shouldn't be expected to live without it. But it wasn't really her watcher that taught her to expect none of that stuff, it was just her life.
It's not greedy to want what most people take for granted. What Faith wanted from Buffy (Oo-er missus...) was really basic stuff - A mom. A home. Friends. Respect. Somebody to tell her she was something. To Faith, Buffy represented the centrepoint of everything absent from her own life. She starts envying what she sees somebody else with every single day. In a way, Faith was justifiably irked - It's supposed to be her time to shine, the age of Faith. In nearly every other way, she was lashing out at innocent people for all the crap that's happened to her, which is less good. Her frustration at being considered first alternate was left unchecked and spiralled to Glenn Close proportions, but the fact is it would have been possible to get through to Faith well before it reached the point of tube feeding. Even when she's so enraged she's putting glass in Wesley's chest, he's still able to rattle her just by telling her he knows her, he's noticed her. But now it sounds like I'm making excuses. Oops. What I'm trying to say is that Faith's trip down Murdery Lane was avoidable, and that her chance at being the kind of hero Buffy is was ruined the second Xander started doing CPR. She has done very, very bad things, but to write her off as incapable of being Buffy's equal on that basis is to say that Angel should have just waited for the snow to stop and gone subathing anyway.
Jesus, here comes that disdain for Buffy again... somebody remind me of The Gift again quick!
SlayerThe
My
Jules, I gotta say hun I completely disagree with you.
Buffy has been through far more difficult stuff than Faith. Sure Faith killed a man or two and kinda liked it, but it doesn't compare to what B had to sacrifice.
What do you think would be harder, what Faith did that was previously mention or killing yourself, going to heaven, getting dragged out and then having to claw your way into a world that you hate? I think the latter definately wins.
I think Buffy S1-S5 and S7 is so much better than Faith. Only reason s6 isn't on there is because Buffy hated the world. Though you could argue that she had the right to be angry, and it opened her eyes and made her an even stronger slayer.
Buffy has been through far more difficult stuff than Faith. Sure Faith killed a man or two and kinda liked it, but it doesn't compare to what B had to sacrifice.
What do you think would be harder, what Faith did that was previously mention or killing yourself, going to heaven, getting dragged out and then having to claw your way into a world that you hate? I think the latter definately wins.
I think Buffy S1-S5 and S7 is so much better than Faith. Only reason s6 isn't on there is because Buffy hated the world. Though you could argue that she had the right to be angry, and it opened her eyes and made her an even stronger slayer.
I'd have to say Faith is a better slayer even though i like buffy better. Only the thing is that Faith kills them no matter what. Buffy ends up falling in luv w/ them. Faith is more serious about it as well. Buffy is all about the jokes.
Slayer said:
True, Buffy has had her share of awful events...but she has always had her friends and family around her to help her deal. Buffy has never gone through anything on her own. She even confides in Spike as a means to help her get through her bad times.
Faith has always been alone. Everything she has faced, she has had to face alone. She had no Giles to guide her through her slaying, or friends to support her, no love of her life to rely on and even before that she had no parents to love her the way she needed loving.
Compared to Faith, Buffy has had it easy.
SlayerThe
My
Jules said:
But its easy to say that Faith could have had what Buffy had. Faith seemed to embrace the primal essence of the Slayer which made her cut herself off from others.
Faith is a beautiful and outgoing girl, she could have easily made friends and she did. If she tried to get to know people on a un-intimate level and find a support system, instead of being jealous over Buffy, then she might be in a different place. Its always your decision what happens, and Faith just decided not to do anything that could help her life. Because what really stopped her from making good friends? Nothing.
As for the whole watcher thing, she could have easily bonded with Wesley. Buffy transformed Giles from a stiff British man into a kind and caring Watcher and Faith could have easily done the same (especially since we know how Wesley is on Angel. Really kind and caring).
So really, what stopped Faith from having a support system?
I like Faith better, i think shes a better role model aswell, post psycho obviously, in series 7 she took the moral high ground leaing buffy to look petty, not that she is, i love buffy too. Especially i the ep where faith takes the potentials to the bronzes and she has a go at buffy and because buffy knew faith was right she hit her instead of accepting that she was wrong or at least coming back with a comeback. i lost respect for buffy then but my respect for faith grew because she didnt fight back.
Also i think buffy would win a fight but i think faith would kill more vampires because she enjoys it mre than buffy, like faith said buffy alwas looks at the downside of slaying seeing it as a job whereas faith saw it as a job and a hobbie making her fight more, take more risks. also i think faith has been through more than buffy. i mean at least buffy got to have a good childhood whereas faith, as far as e know didnt and then for buffy and co to not really try to help her as much as the could of, making her feel more abandoned causing her to cross to the darkside. but in the end all it took was someone like angel to care ad she came back to the side of good, which we are all happy.
in conclusion i like faith more but i still like buffy
Also i think buffy would win a fight but i think faith would kill more vampires because she enjoys it mre than buffy, like faith said buffy alwas looks at the downside of slaying seeing it as a job whereas faith saw it as a job and a hobbie making her fight more, take more risks. also i think faith has been through more than buffy. i mean at least buffy got to have a good childhood whereas faith, as far as e know didnt and then for buffy and co to not really try to help her as much as the could of, making her feel more abandoned causing her to cross to the darkside. but in the end all it took was someone like angel to care ad she came back to the side of good, which we are all happy.
in conclusion i like faith more but i still like buffy
Her life stopped her from having a support system. She was brought up in an abusive home, from a young age she would have started cutting herself off from people. Her trust in anyone was shattered at an early age. She never had anyone to rely on, she didn't know how to let people in. She wanted that so much. She watched Buffy have it. And what made it worse, was the fact that she was a slayer. To add to the fact that she couldn't trust people, she was a slayer, made to be solitary in nature.
From the word go, Buffy was brough up in a loving family....she was the most popular girl in high school. She never wanted for anything her whole life.
Faith needed Buffy to show her how to interact with friends...but Buffy was to busy being jealous at Faith for trying to find a place in the scooby gang. Faith tried to act like Buffy and for one episode Faith became the leader of the scoobie gang, but Buffy pushed her out!
From the word go, Buffy was brough up in a loving family....she was the most popular girl in high school. She never wanted for anything her whole life.
Faith needed Buffy to show her how to interact with friends...but Buffy was to busy being jealous at Faith for trying to find a place in the scooby gang. Faith tried to act like Buffy and for one episode Faith became the leader of the scoobie gang, but Buffy pushed her out!
SlayerThe
My
Actually I think it was pretty obvious that Faith gave up her "control" of the Scoobs after she lead all those potentials into a trap. Which got more potentials killed than Buffy ever did.
Honestly, I don't buy into Faith's whole bad childhood being the reason for a bad adulthood. There are people out there who've grown up in bad places, but yet they overcame everything and rose up to be a strong person with the ability to make great friends and live a good life. I'm not saying she didn't have it rough, I'm just saying she could have easily been a good person with friends of her very own.
I think it was harder for Buffy. Buffy had to be something different from everyone else and yet she had to relate to her friends. They never understood her and sometimes, they didn't even care. She was automatically supposed to get over her issues just because they had no idea how bad she hurt inside.
Plus she had to deal with her mother finding out her secret identity then after her mom found out, she was constantly having to save her. Not to mention a bloodsucking vampire who loves you one minute then tries to kill you the next minute. And look at what happened during and after Becoming. It was so hard that she had to leave. Angel leaving, Parker using her, Riley not understanding her and having her mother gone and protecting Dawn was all to much for her. Then she kills herself to save the world and shes finally at peace. But shes needed in this world, so shes pulled from the only place where shes had peace for 6 years and back to the place that resembles hell most to her.
But if Buffy was a little less jealous over Faith and viceversa with Faith trying not to take Buffy's life, then they should have been the best of friends. I mean they had a common bond that they only shared. You can see some sort of resemblance of a great friendship between them in Season 3 but its cut short. And in my personal opinion, I think Buffy could have been closer and better friends with Faith then with any of the other Scoobs.
Honestly, I don't buy into Faith's whole bad childhood being the reason for a bad adulthood. There are people out there who've grown up in bad places, but yet they overcame everything and rose up to be a strong person with the ability to make great friends and live a good life. I'm not saying she didn't have it rough, I'm just saying she could have easily been a good person with friends of her very own.
I think it was harder for Buffy. Buffy had to be something different from everyone else and yet she had to relate to her friends. They never understood her and sometimes, they didn't even care. She was automatically supposed to get over her issues just because they had no idea how bad she hurt inside.
Plus she had to deal with her mother finding out her secret identity then after her mom found out, she was constantly having to save her. Not to mention a bloodsucking vampire who loves you one minute then tries to kill you the next minute. And look at what happened during and after Becoming. It was so hard that she had to leave. Angel leaving, Parker using her, Riley not understanding her and having her mother gone and protecting Dawn was all to much for her. Then she kills herself to save the world and shes finally at peace. But shes needed in this world, so shes pulled from the only place where shes had peace for 6 years and back to the place that resembles hell most to her.
But if Buffy was a little less jealous over Faith and viceversa with Faith trying not to take Buffy's life, then they should have been the best of friends. I mean they had a common bond that they only shared. You can see some sort of resemblance of a great friendship between them in Season 3 but its cut short. And in my personal opinion, I think Buffy could have been closer and better friends with Faith then with any of the other Scoobs.
SlayersDestiny
Destiny
Ok, gonna be devils advocate here. Buffy was the better slayer, not because she lived a priviledged life but because she took her duties as a slayer seriously. She also never used them as a crutch or excuse for her actions.
Faith chose to abuse her slayer status. Faith also used the fact of her watcher being killed and her horrible life as an excuse for her behaviour. Faith enjoyed the hunt and the kill. She used it as a way to quell emotions that she wasnt mature enough to deal with... abandonment,abuse..etc. She used it as a cop-out. And to say that she had no family that cared about her is bogus. Buffy was a little jealous at first, but she also did all that she could to include her with her family and friends. Faith enjoyed the dark side, she succombed to the dark desires her soul craved to justify her existance as a slayer/villian.
Faith chose to abuse her slayer status. Faith also used the fact of her watcher being killed and her horrible life as an excuse for her behaviour. Faith enjoyed the hunt and the kill. She used it as a way to quell emotions that she wasnt mature enough to deal with... abandonment,abuse..etc. She used it as a cop-out. And to say that she had no family that cared about her is bogus. Buffy was a little jealous at first, but she also did all that she could to include her with her family and friends. Faith enjoyed the dark side, she succombed to the dark desires her soul craved to justify her existance as a slayer/villian.
Jill_Valentine
Sacred and Profane
It's worth mentioning that, although she clearly did so on some level, Faith never openly blamed her actions on her childhood. As far as she was concerned she was making each choice of her own free will (The whole point of the "Evil" thang - that she could make her own choices, and thus be different to her predecessor) but she actually brought up her childhood as little as humanly possible, and is clearly uncomfortable discussing it. She mentioned her alcoMom once in Enemies as a supporting statement for something else, and she mentioned the quarry to the Mayor as a sign that he'd earned her trust. Everything else about her past is just implied by somebody else or by her demeanor. For all we know, she came from a very well off background and just liked Placebo so much she adopted the rock chick persona lock, stock and barrel. And who doesn't like Placebo?
I always liked Buffy better. Faith was too much of a Bad girl for me to like her in season 3. even before she killed the guy. I like her better when she returns to the show later but I really didn't like her much at all when I saw her in season 3.
SlayerThe
My
This is completely OT but anyways...
This was the thread I was replying to when I knocked over the Propel! I had written atleast 2000 words on this Faith vs. Buffy post. It was gooood too. Darn
SlayersDestiny made a good point, Faith blamed other things on the reason she was so messed up. But Buffy, time and time again, overcame her crap.
This was the thread I was replying to when I knocked over the Propel! I had written atleast 2000 words on this Faith vs. Buffy post. It was gooood too. Darn
SlayersDestiny made a good point, Faith blamed other things on the reason she was so messed up. But Buffy, time and time again, overcame her crap.
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