Fan Hated vs. Fan Favorite Characters

Um... where is everyone getting the strange impression that i think ignorance is worse than genocide? I don't think they can be compared. Both are incredibly evil, yet different. Just because I prefer Anya over Buffy, doesn't mean that I think one is less evil.

OK so ignorance and genocide are equally evil? You've got every ignorant person in the world lined up next to Hitler on the evil scale?

I had no idea so many people are bothered by the idea of me disliking Buffy Summers. Seriously, there are people on tumblr, who are 'I can't be friends with you if you dislike Buffy Summers' 'how can anyone hate her' 'why do you even like the show'.

That's all very silly. Obviously disliking people is a matter of personal preference. I do find it mind blowing to see a hero like Buffy compared unfavourably to a mass murderer like Anya though.

Really, it's simple. Think before you act. And btw, really, if you do that, you won't say dumb things such as 'hood'. You won't sound like a bully.

This is very sensible advice and I totally agree. Some people just aren't wired this way though. It doesn't make them evil or racist. Just means their mouth sometimes starts before their brain engages.

I personally think your use of the term racism is too broad and counter productive. If you start lumping everyone under this description then it completely loses it's power. By all means say Buffy can be insensitive but not racist.

Just realised I forgot to actually answer the thread!

Loved: Buffy, Giles, Xander, Spike
Hated: I don't actually hate anyone on the show but the most disliked would probably be Joyce and Rona.
 
I've got to say, whilst I cringed at Buffy's "The hood?" line to Robin, and would have quite happily reached through the screen and punched her when she started talking about how Chloe was weak, and whilst I really liked Jenny Calendar, I don't think Buffy's feelings towards her are motivated by racism. Buffy is hurting, she has lost her lover, and now there is a killer on the loose. To a certain extent, she likely blames herself for it, due to what triggered the change. She is angry, and when she finds out that Jenny is involved, she blames her. And Giles and the rest of the Scoobies side with Buffy because they feel that she needs the support, and probably because they're hurt that Jenny was keeping secrets from them.

I think that this is unfair- Jenny does not know about the effects of the curse until it is far too late to do anything about it. Jenny does not cause Angel's soul to be taken away. I think it is also motivated in part by the fact that Buffy isn't really that close to Jenny- she's a lot closer to Giles and Willow than to Buffy- and whilst she might have been able to forgive Willow, Giles or Xander, it's a lot easier to stay angry at Jenny. I think part of her realises that she is being unfair to Jenny (or, particularly to Giles), which is why she has the conversation with her in Passion- she is still angry with Jenny, but she doesn't want this to affect Jenny and Giles's relationship.

So, yeah, in conclusion, I think in this instance, the writers show pretty clearly that Buffy's feelings towards Jenny are motivated entirely by the situation, not because of Jenny's culture. This is in stark opposition to her comments to Robin, and her mocking of Kendra's accent, both of which are pretty clearly digs at their respective cultural backgrounds and races. Now, whilst I don't think Buffy intends to be racist, or that she hates people of other races, her comments in these instances are stupid, and ignorant, and yes, racist.

Now, having read your arguments, I can kind of appreciate what you mean by how Jenny was treated, but I would argue that this is more an issue with the writers- Buffy is not angry with Jenny because she is a gypsy, but the writers chose to have Jenny be a gypsy who is keeping secrets about her past, they chose to cast her in a more negative light (dream sequence, etc.), and they chose to have her frozen out of the Scoobies. So I can kind of see an argument that the writers were insensitive in their handling of the character, but not that Buffy's treatment of her was motivated by race.
 
Buffy is angry at Jenny because of her actions or lack of them. She's not remotely interested in her background. Why should she be? Eventually Buffy would have forgiven Jenny and gone back to normal. After that she still wouldn't have been interested in her background. Treating people differently because of their race is surely the very definition of racism. Surely an approach like this is much more offensive:

Buffy: "well Jenny you've endangered me and everyone else by witholding important information but awww you're a gypsy so that's cool"

She's angry and has good reason to be. Anyone else would have faced the exact same response because Buffy treats people the same. Also the reason Buffy can't forgive Jenny straight away is because the consequences are long lasting unlike various other things that people do to Buffy.

Mocking someones accent is not racist. Impressionists make a living copying accents for one thing. Accents vary from place to place not between races. Just switching counties in a small country like England brings you different accents from people of all races. I'm in Essex and our accent is mocked quite often. There's nothing racist about it.

The hood comment is bad. I haven't watched Season 7 in a long time but I suspect the situation led to it and she instantly realised it was a stupid thing to say. I'm sure Robin said something along the lines of "where I come from". This is a saying quite often followed by a tough upbringing story. It's a stupid slip of the tongue comment, made out of nervousness. There was an initial attraction from Buffy towards Robin, people say silly things in those situations sometimes.
 
Buffy is a Racist? I missed a lot while I stepped away 🙂

Does Buffy Summers ever show that she believes her race (Caucasian aka White) is superior in any way to other races and cultures? Not that I remember. Has she made a generalization before? Maybe. But thats not the criteria for making an individual a racist. If it is...then i'm a huge racist especially against my own kind lol. In no way have we seen Buffy carry beliefs and practices that discriminate. So what she mocks an accent. She shows no hatred towards Kendra and actually seems to really like her...who hasn't mocked or poked fun at a friend or somebody you like? Did you see racism cause Kendra happens to be Black? If Buffy showed any type of superiority towards Kendra it was cause its Buffy's personality in general and not about Kendra's race. Buffy said "the hood"....i'm from "the hood" and use it often enough. I wasn't upset about the comment and it was said in a playful context even if it was ignorant cause she was actually intrigued by Wood. Buffy's comment towards the First Slayer was superficial (which may be racist by design) but it was an opinion not a racial comment. If Buffy was Black would you see racism in her saying her hair looks bad? And for the suicide girl weak comment she made...once again it may be an ugly line/offensive but she was fighting a very real war (tv wise) and its also her opinion. People really are designed weaker, stronger, and can perform weak or strong moments. Just cause she pointed out her opinion or maybe just being harsh to prepare her soldiers for an ugly battle...does that take away what she stands for and accomplishes as a person? If you want to cherry pick every little thing about a person then you will find something you don't like
 
Blaze
Blaze
[No message]
I
itssmiletime
I am not 'nitpicking' at all. And I don't have to accept anyone's ignorant opinion.
Bluebird
Bluebird
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Here's the thing. Making generalisations of a culture is still racist. I'm only going to say it once more because frankly, I'm running around in circles. If you assume that an African American man is automatically from the 'hood' yes, that is a form of racism. Not all racism is straight out WHITE POWER okay, people?

Also, I'll accept right now that no one is going to understand what I mean. But seriously, even if Buffy would 'say that to anyone' 'treats everyone like that'- why are you justifying her so much? I mean, even if say, she is not a racist (I think she harbours some racism, and does nothing to overcome it), she can still be a bad person.
[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]: like I said, they can't be compared. Gee, aren't you reading a thing I said? They are evil, yet two seperate kinds of evil. One is an action, one is an attitude. And btw, if you are seriously gonna use the nazi card with Anya, I suggest you stop now. You really don't need another fallacy to add to the list that you've used in this thread. They can't be compared, full stop. I'm not trying to compare them, at all.

I'm gonna say it again: There is a difference between liking a character and liking a person. The fact that people are making me justify my reasons for loving a character even though I've stated them prior, is well, mindblowing.... you can like a character that has well, evil in them.

@NY State Of Mind:

First off, there is no 'may'. It is offensive. Straight out, offensive. I do not care if it's 'opinion'. It's ignorance. It's just as bad as making a racist claim, a sexist remark. An 'opinion' is thinking public transport should be free. An ignorant statement is thinking that anyone with lung cancer is stupid. There is a difference.

And so what if its war? Please, the tough love approach never works, it makes things worse. Psychology doesn't work that way. I've been called weak and stupid, and if anything, it just makes me smarter about my next suicide attempt. It dramatically increases the severity of the condition. And I am not the only one You can't fight against psychology. You can, however, work with it. Killing yourself, attempting to kill yourself or thinking about suicide is never a weakness.
 
NY State of Mind
NY State of Mind
I speak from experience. Where are you speaking from? Psychology works many ways I love how you try to box everything in one field. In no way does Buffy show she believes her race is superior...that is what a racist is
@itssmiletime

I am reading what you're saying. I've got no problem with you enjoying Anya and not Buffy. But the way you balance up evil makes no sense at all to me. Your description of genocide to ignorance is that both are evil yet different and one is not less evil than the other. I completely disagree with this assessment. So for examples that affect me:

Person 1 watches a programme called "The Only Way is Essex" (this is an awful scripted/reality show in England). They come away mocking the Essex accent, using the word "reem" and assuming people from Essex are either stupid or easy.

Person 2 shows up with a gun and starts killing people in Essex.

Being from Essex I find person 1 irritating but not evil and person 2 absolutely evil.

Person 1 watches another UK programme called "Loose Women". Comes away from the show and starts saying things like "men are all the same", "typical man" and "men are useless".

Person 2 (Anya) revels in killing and torturing men.

As a man I find person 1 irritating and person 2 evil.

So back onto Buffy. She makes a couple of remarks that may be considered offensive or insensitive over a 7 year period while saving the entire planet. Are you really trying to tell us that those comments are not less evil than someone killing people because of their race or beliefs?

Look at it another way. You're walking down the street with Kendra. You come across 2 people and ask them for help. The first person mocks Kendra's accent and the second person shoots her dead. Is your call to the police going to be "I'd like to report someone for mocking my friends accent, their ignorance is evil" or more likely "someone just shot my friend, they're evil"?
 
Well, you do seem to have a problem with me liking Anya as you brought her up. My rule of 'no comparisons' is important so that no one gets away with anything. For example:

1) A dictator kills over 100,000 people of a particular race
2) An individual from a different country makes a joke about the same race.

Of course the dictator gets a worse punishment. Yet the individual themselves isn't gonna use the fact that 'more evil exists' as a way to get away from their actions. I believe in a 'no excuses'. So, what, if they save the world on a daily basis? They still should be called out on their behaviour.

Ignorance is awful, still evil. Yet Buffy doesn't do anything to try to challenge her presumptions. She doesn't strive to be a better person. Her arc is dull, boring, badly acted and written and awfully one-sided, and the character bores me so much. I'm not gonna dismiss her moments of ignorance, because there are far too many and span from seasons 2 all the way to 7.

So, that means when I think what is going to be an appropriate punishment, I'm not gonna think for a second 'well, hey she's not killing Kendra'. No, I'm gonna think the harm that such presumptions and comments can make.

And your response to your scenario at the end of your reply, I'd report them both.
 
Think we'll have to agree to disagree here. Really don't have a problem with liking Anya though. I find her amusing enough sometimes, I just don't think she compares favourably to Buffy on the good to evil scale. Also I find her quite weak in the comic relief role on the show. I prefer Xander, Cordelia and Spike taking up that role.

You'd report the shooting first though because it's worse and more evil 😉
 
Well, you do seem to have a problem with me liking Anya as you brought her up. My rule of 'no comparisons' is important so that no one gets away with anything. For example:

1) A dictator kills over 100,000 people of a particular race
2) An individual from a different country makes a joke about the same race.

Of course the dictator gets a worse punishment. Yet the individual themselves isn't gonna use the fact that 'more evil exists' as a way to get away from their actions. I believe in a 'no excuses'. So, what, if they save the world on a daily basis? They still should be called out on their behaviour.

Ignorance is awful, still evil. Yet Buffy doesn't do anything to try to challenge her presumptions. She doesn't strive to be a better person. Her arc is dull, boring, badly acted and written and awfully one-sided, and the character bores me so much. I'm not gonna dismiss her moments of ignorance, because there are far too many and span from seasons 2 all the way to 7.

So, that means when I think what is going to be an appropriate punishment, I'm not gonna think for a second 'well, hey she's not killing Kendra'. No, I'm gonna think the harm that such presumptions and comments can make.

And your response to your scenario at the end of your reply, I'd report them both.

Yet you challenge her "ignorance" with more ignorance. You dismiss the person cause of comments you find biased instead of bringing up these incidents as thought provoking and challenge to enlighten people. You're like shes a racist based off a few incidents instead of judging the actual character. If Buffy was real would you just write her off as a racist/ignorant instead of actually trying to give her a different perspective? I find your whole argument about Buffy hating Gypsies completely grounded in nothing at all. It seems to me like you're looking for racism where there is none. I won't keep commenting cause I don't want you to feel like i'm attacking you, but as a minority from "the hood" who's experienced racism in many forms whether it was to me or family members/friends I find your argument weak and its sad cause I think you could of really had something if you cut off all that fat around the meat. There's a difference between ignorance out of inexperience/uncultured and ignorance based off hate

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 PM ----------

As far as the suicide comment it is harsh and the thing about strength & weakness is it can be seen viewed differently by an individual, but since suicide comes off as "giving up" there will always be people who view it as weak. However, a weakness can be a strength and a strength can be a weakness depending on the situation.

STRENGTH
the ability to resist being moved or broken by a force
the quality that allows someone to deal with problems in a determined and effective way

WEAKNESS
the state or condition of lacking strength
a quality or feature that prevents someone or something from being effective or useful
 
Kairos
Kairos
[No message]
@NY State Of Mind: Seriously, I'm not gonna continue talking about what I find racist about her character. I never said it was a massive factor or anything about that- or I'm dismissing her all together. It's just one of the reasons why I don't like her.

And when I talk about suicide, I talk from a place of experience, utter science, sociology, etc. Yes, people will continue to call suicidal people weak. Does that make it okay?

Let me tell you something about being suicidal. It infects your every thought. Your body slows down and the chances of you being sick dramatically increase. You look into the mirror and you have vomit forming in your mouth. You sincerely believe you are a terrible person who deserves to die. There is no voice in your head that says 'that's the depression talking'. You hate yourself fully. You do not tell anyone about your plans to kill yourself because they might stop you. You do have a complete genuine desire to die. Your brain can not function. It slows down and parts of it just won't work at times. You can not articulate your emotions to anyone. This process is so utterly cruel, and tragic, and if anyone tries to put me, or others, in their little 'strong' or 'weak' columns, they can go **** themselves and although I'd never wish the experience of being suicidal on anyone, I'm willing to make an exception.
 
NY State of Mind
NY State of Mind
I know every topic you talk of however I will still not agree that a person has to be politically correct to protect anothers feelings...in no way is she going to hospitals and calling suicide ppl weak...its her opinion in war and she has that right
Favs are Cordy, Giles in each group (AI, Scoobies)

Hated well I'm not really a hater so I can like them in different aspects but its hard for me to like Connor, and I used to not like Riley but a few girls on the boards let me see the light that maybe hes not that lame 🙂
 
I love 'em all. Most of the time.

And I've hated each and every one at one time or another.

I'm an equal love/hate fan.

Same for me. Thankfully they weren't written as one dimensional as some tv characters, so we got to continually change our opinions on them.



Ignorance is awful, still evil. Yet Buffy doesn't do anything to try to challenge her presumptions. She doesn't strive to be a better person. Her arc is dull, boring, badly acted and written and awfully one-sided, and the character bores me so much. I'm not gonna dismiss her moments of ignorance, because there are far too many and span from seasons 2 all the way to 7.

I don't get the 'Buffy is a racist' idea, that's came out of left field for me. She was in every episode, I don't understand why you watched it all. 😛
 
Favorites:
Oz
Xander
Angel
Spike
Wesley
Buffy
Giles
Willow
Faith
Lorne
Fred

Hated:
Dawn
Riley
The Trio
 
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