Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
They ran out of ideas for Spike the issue after he revealed Angel was Twilight, they have no idea what to do with his character at the moment.
At least this might be somewhat funny.
First Look at BtVS Season 10
- Thread starter Lyri
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They ran out of ideas for Spike the issue after he revealed Angel was Twilight, they have no idea what to do with his character at the moment.
At least this might be somewhat funny.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Actually you're right, Spike's always been side-lined, yet to me, he's always been around to much, how is that possible? Oh, right, I dislike his intensely!
Spike should've died at the end of Buffy, saving the world. It was a good, noble end for a character, even if I didn't like him that much. And even though I liked his exchanges on Angel S5, and it really grew his character...it just doesn't seem worth it anymore when we're stuck with this nothing of a vampire. I consider it the worst crime in fiction to be boring, your taking time and space away from characters who aren't boring. 😡
I mean I know Angel's character got screwed over during the whole 'Twilight' thing, but at least it led to some interesting developments (Angel and Faith, Angel and Whistler) and the writers seem to have some idea where his characters going (that doesn't involve Buffy).
Memo to writers: Do something worthwhile with Spike, or give him is own comic or kill him off (preferably the latter!) 🙂
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
The problem is any time they do something with his character fans cry bloody murder, so they can't do anything with him like have him move on from Buffy, they can't put him with Buffy and I dont think they'd give him his own comic as a lot of his fans are fans of him and Buffy not him alone (also his comic sold the least)
In the entire history of the verse, Spike has been defined by the company he keeps. His mother, Cecily, Drusilla, Angelus, Buffy, Angel. He becomes the person he believes will garner him the most affection/time/respect/importance from whomever he has aligned himself with. He's never been allowed develop into an independent character, which is why I dislike him so much. But like BEG said, fans don't follow him when he goes it alone so his story recycles itself and he is left in a cul de sac of storytelling.
brinkster130
Riley's BFF
I'm really hoping the roommate situation will only be in issue 7....multiple issues sounds like torture.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I still don't understand the idea of keeping Spike around.
It's clear that no one has any idea of what to do with him, which is why he wasn't in S8 until the very end, because he didn't fit, but Allie's huge fan and wants to keep him around, despite having no storyline of his own, and they can't give him a storyline because no matter what they do, they're going to piss people off. And they don't want to deal with angry letters.
Joss' whole reason for killing Giles was because he said that Giles was of no more use, so they made him important by killing him and turning his death into a storyline. And then they reinvented him and brought him back.
Spike needs something like that. He's not selling comics, that much is clear, his character isn't drawing in the numbers on his own and turning him back into Buffy's lapdog not only negates all the character growth he made in AtS S5 and AtF, but it also angers the Bangels and the Buffy-Solo fans. Which they will never do.
It's a no win situation.
It's clear that no one has any idea of what to do with him, which is why he wasn't in S8 until the very end, because he didn't fit, but Allie's huge fan and wants to keep him around, despite having no storyline of his own, and they can't give him a storyline because no matter what they do, they're going to piss people off. And they don't want to deal with angry letters.
Joss' whole reason for killing Giles was because he said that Giles was of no more use, so they made him important by killing him and turning his death into a storyline. And then they reinvented him and brought him back.
Spike needs something like that. He's not selling comics, that much is clear, his character isn't drawing in the numbers on his own and turning him back into Buffy's lapdog not only negates all the character growth he made in AtS S5 and AtF, but it also angers the Bangels and the Buffy-Solo fans. Which they will never do.
It's a no win situation.
Interview with Scott Allie.
SOURCE
I'd like to point out that Allie said the same thing about Spike last season, that he would have a big, important part in S9 and then he...didn't. Yeah, Allie talks about that, saying that stories grow on their own, and he's right about that. But he's made promises every year, or at least, every season, and he hasn't ever really delivered on any of the promises. Allie is one of the reasons I don't really like the direction of the comics.
SOURCE
I'd like to point out that Allie said the same thing about Spike last season, that he would have a big, important part in S9 and then he...didn't. Yeah, Allie talks about that, saying that stories grow on their own, and he's right about that. But he's made promises every year, or at least, every season, and he hasn't ever really delivered on any of the promises. Allie is one of the reasons I don't really like the direction of the comics.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Spike had a lot to do last season, what are they talking about, Allies right that he didn't have a story, but they didn't stop him from always being around, which is part of why he's so insufferable. Not doing anything just wasting ink.
Also Spike isn't one of the core, when people ask for more core interactions they are asking for Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles. Dawn, Anya, Tara, Spike and whoever else were floaters around the core, I'd much rather see Xander and Willow living together, or see Xander living with the teenage Giles, which would be the same kinda of comical hijinks they'll make with Spike.
More core interactions is exactly what the comic needs, but core as in Willow-Buffy-Xander, it made huge strides bringing Willow and Buffy back together, even if it did separate Xander, but if they played it off as Buffy and Willow repairing stuff with Xander this season it would be so much better.
Also Spike isn't one of the core, when people ask for more core interactions they are asking for Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles. Dawn, Anya, Tara, Spike and whoever else were floaters around the core, I'd much rather see Xander and Willow living together, or see Xander living with the teenage Giles, which would be the same kinda of comical hijinks they'll make with Spike.
More core interactions is exactly what the comic needs, but core as in Willow-Buffy-Xander, it made huge strides bringing Willow and Buffy back together, even if it did separate Xander, but if they played it off as Buffy and Willow repairing stuff with Xander this season it would be so much better.
Allie said Spike didn't have 'appropriate' things to do, and he's right, they had nothing for Spike to do on his own. So they had to force him into situations he wasn't really a part of, and then, when that didn't work, they tried to spin him off on his own story, which sold abysmally. Though, I do like what they did with Spike and Dawn, I thought that worked out well, even if it was an accident and unplanned.
That's what I can't understand and why I think Allie's isn't actually a fan of the show. They think 'core' means 'anyone that was in the opening credits or around for longer than two episodes'. They genuinely don't get what we mean by 'core', and that really bugs me.
I get that we can't just demand what we want from the season and expect to get it, that's not how things like this work. But I'm kinda tired of them telling us 'yes, we're listening to you, we know what you want' and then giving us things like this.
Okay, yes, it could be good, it could work, but the Scoobs are still broken, and I'd rather see that fixed first and foremost, rather than creating new bonds and 'bromances'.
That's what I can't understand and why I think Allie's isn't actually a fan of the show. They think 'core' means 'anyone that was in the opening credits or around for longer than two episodes'. They genuinely don't get what we mean by 'core', and that really bugs me.
I get that we can't just demand what we want from the season and expect to get it, that's not how things like this work. But I'm kinda tired of them telling us 'yes, we're listening to you, we know what you want' and then giving us things like this.
Okay, yes, it could be good, it could work, but the Scoobs are still broken, and I'd rather see that fixed first and foremost, rather than creating new bonds and 'bromances'.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
Yeah the constant "yes your right we made a mistake, look how we've fixed it" is getting a annoying.
Even last year we got all the apologies about Xander, Buffy and Willow not being together enough and told that would be a focus for season 9, which didn't happen instead we got fake abortion stories, Xander and Dawn retreating to background players for Xanders ridiculous story, Willow leaving, then even towards the end we thought we were getting a core group story with "The Core" which ended up being a lie.
Scott seemed like a fan of the show, but I think there was a massive turning point in season 8, remember when he implied (or said something that made people think he did) he liked Angel and Buffy rather then Spike and Buffy, he said something like it was a no brainer , and he got absolutely shafted out if, Spike and Buffy fans hounded him on twitter and the letters section for months.
It always seemed to me that after that he seemed to talk up Spike a lot, cuz he knows the fans are very vocal, I'd say the most vocal online.
He seems to get lost in the loundness of certain fans and it's hindering the story.
And yeah like you said the Xander-Spike story might be funny, but it's not fixing the bigger flaws of the series and thats the reason the comics are hemorrhaging readers.
Even last year we got all the apologies about Xander, Buffy and Willow not being together enough and told that would be a focus for season 9, which didn't happen instead we got fake abortion stories, Xander and Dawn retreating to background players for Xanders ridiculous story, Willow leaving, then even towards the end we thought we were getting a core group story with "The Core" which ended up being a lie.
Scott seemed like a fan of the show, but I think there was a massive turning point in season 8, remember when he implied (or said something that made people think he did) he liked Angel and Buffy rather then Spike and Buffy, he said something like it was a no brainer , and he got absolutely shafted out if, Spike and Buffy fans hounded him on twitter and the letters section for months.
It always seemed to me that after that he seemed to talk up Spike a lot, cuz he knows the fans are very vocal, I'd say the most vocal online.
He seems to get lost in the loundness of certain fans and it's hindering the story.
And yeah like you said the Xander-Spike story might be funny, but it's not fixing the bigger flaws of the series and thats the reason the comics are hemorrhaging readers.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Yeah, I find that that the Spike fans are the loudest, which makes it seem like there's more of them. They just bang on about how he's a 'core integral' member, and then are upset when the writers don't know what to do with him.
Spikes' appeal was pretty much JM's performance (and some might say appearance), that's it. JM isn't appearing in the comics (although interestingly he's writing a Spike mini that's set between S6 and S7 that might blow a huge hole in the whole Spuffy thing...here's hoping. 🙂) so we're left with a pretty dull character.
Although, like Lyri, I too liked the Spike/Dawn interaction in S9, but since it harkened back to Season 5, it felt really forced.
To be honest the interview above just left me depressed. I want to see how Giles (and a brief Faith cameo) shake up the Scoobie dynamic. I want more Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles- we had some of that in 'The Core' (which was a relatively strong finish to the season- at least things happened...), I don't want wacky Spike/Xander hijinks. I've thought about it and now it just pisses me off. Yet again they seem to be trying to capture something that's already been done on the show.
Here's a tip writers- build on what happened on the show, don't rehash it. Take risks and change characters, some people won't like it, but at least it'll be interesting.
Spikes' appeal was pretty much JM's performance (and some might say appearance), that's it. JM isn't appearing in the comics (although interestingly he's writing a Spike mini that's set between S6 and S7 that might blow a huge hole in the whole Spuffy thing...here's hoping. 🙂) so we're left with a pretty dull character.
Although, like Lyri, I too liked the Spike/Dawn interaction in S9, but since it harkened back to Season 5, it felt really forced.
To be honest the interview above just left me depressed. I want to see how Giles (and a brief Faith cameo) shake up the Scoobie dynamic. I want more Buffy, Xander, Willow and Giles- we had some of that in 'The Core' (which was a relatively strong finish to the season- at least things happened...), I don't want wacky Spike/Xander hijinks. I've thought about it and now it just pisses me off. Yet again they seem to be trying to capture something that's already been done on the show.
Here's a tip writers- build on what happened on the show, don't rehash it. Take risks and change characters, some people won't like it, but at least it'll be interesting.
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To me, if it turns out to be a genuine Spike-Xander story - we've been fooled by covers before - then it is just another exercise in the writers giving fans what they think fans want rather than what is right for the characters and story. Spander has a very prominent fandom following but it just isn't canon. It doesn't reflect canon in the slightest so if we get a Spike/Xander buddy story it belongs nowhere but in fic. The characters have barely tolerated each other in canon since S2.
BEG and I were talking about that a while ago. We can't decide if it's supposed to be canon or not, considering what's actually supposed to happen in it. (Spike goes on some sort of journey looking for...I think it's a new pair of boots? And he meets a girl on the way and has an apparently very meaningful fling) It has the possibility of changing a LOT of canon, and I don't know if that would have been allowed. I can't see Joss allowing James to have free rein on his whole story, changing things that would have severe consequences for the rest of...well, everything.
Best guess, it'll be more like the early Buffy comics, the ones that ran when the show was still on the air. In other words, not canon.
I can understand Spike fans being upset with Spike's lack of character or plot, I'd be mad, too, if it was my favorite character that was getting treated like the spare part that's shoved in where they think it fits. But Allie and the rest of the writers are SO scared about upsetting Spike fans that they can't actually give him any sort of important storyline, so he's stuck like this.
Whereas every single other character has been torn to shreds and kicked all over the place and have done some truly horrible - and sometimes unforgivable - things with impunity. I just don't like that Spike is so protected.
---------- Post added at 09:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------
This.
I am a Spander fan, the greatest fanfic I have ever read in my 12+ years in fandom was a Spander fic, and I reread it constantly. But I know where fic ends and canon begins, and this sort of buddy-cop storyline isn't in keeping with Spike and Xander's characters, especially considering what happened to Xander last season. I understand Nick's love for James and his love of working with him, but that doesn't translate to the characters they played and this is one of the main reasons why I was so concerned when I heard that Nick was going to write for this season.
And now I am just reading that interview and seeing that there is going to be a Season 11...
Black Eye Guy
Love it!
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Yeah, I'm a Faith fan (Surprise!) and I had to suffer through 'No Future For You' which seemed to drag her character back to season 3, so I get it. Sometimes the comics screw your favourite character over. (And the whole Faith being kinda ignored and bitched about for a lot of S9- I tolerated it because I knew she was getting her own comic)
And I do recall the howls of Spike fans who read Spike's debut in A&F, he was in it for three (?) eps and they said everything he did was out of character, that he would never, ever, disrespect Buffy by: hitting on Faith, insulting/asking Angel for advice, sleeping with Harmony. (which he did within seconds of getting his body back in Angel S5).
It was all so cringe-inducing. They just want him to be her...loyal dog-boyfriend or something. Nothing that resembles a respectable character.
As for the Spike/Xander friendship...I really don't know. They work so much better as antagonists towards each other, than anything else. Xander barely tolerates Spike, Spike ignores Xander, thats how it works. If they can do something interesting...maybe, but I'm not confident.
Y'know, there was a time I didn't really mind Spike, but the more the comics go on...
And I do recall the howls of Spike fans who read Spike's debut in A&F, he was in it for three (?) eps and they said everything he did was out of character, that he would never, ever, disrespect Buffy by: hitting on Faith, insulting/asking Angel for advice, sleeping with Harmony. (which he did within seconds of getting his body back in Angel S5).
It was all so cringe-inducing. They just want him to be her...loyal dog-boyfriend or something. Nothing that resembles a respectable character.
As for the Spike/Xander friendship...I really don't know. They work so much better as antagonists towards each other, than anything else. Xander barely tolerates Spike, Spike ignores Xander, thats how it works. If they can do something interesting...maybe, but I'm not confident.
Y'know, there was a time I didn't really mind Spike, but the more the comics go on...
You know, No Future for You was my favourite arc from S8. Now, a large part of that probably had to do with Brian K. Vaughan being the author because there is nothing that man has written than I haven't loved. I can totally understand why a Faith fan would regard it as a step back for her but I thought it felt true to her character and past and still showed a character growth that she could have only dreamed of in S3. It showed that Faith's place in the Scoobies hadn't changed but who she was as a person had and that was pretty huge.
But I do get it, as an Angel fan, I so very much get it.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Well, maybe 'suffered thorough' isn't quite the right phrase, after all it was very well written and tightly constructed (and yes, I agree, it was one of the better arcs). And Brian K Vaugn nailed Faith's voice completely. 🙂
I suppose 'disappointed' is a better term. Faith had been abandoned by the Scoobies after 'Chosen', which just felt...wrong to me. (I mean they made Andrew- a minor character, a Watcher 😱)
Also she seemed a bit more unstable than I remember, and some of her moral choices (and Giles') seemed questionable at best, although alls well that ends well, I guess. She did the right thing in the end. 🙂
See, unlike say, a Spike fan, I kinda try and rationalize the characters actions, think about what the writers trying to say about the character by having them act that way, and fit it into my world view. (I even tried to do that to Angel after the Twilight thing- He's a favourite character of mine to after all).
I don't just bleat out 'out of character' automatically. Gee ain't I mature. 😀
I suppose 'disappointed' is a better term. Faith had been abandoned by the Scoobies after 'Chosen', which just felt...wrong to me. (I mean they made Andrew- a minor character, a Watcher 😱)
Also she seemed a bit more unstable than I remember, and some of her moral choices (and Giles') seemed questionable at best, although alls well that ends well, I guess. She did the right thing in the end. 🙂
See, unlike say, a Spike fan, I kinda try and rationalize the characters actions, think about what the writers trying to say about the character by having them act that way, and fit it into my world view. (I even tried to do that to Angel after the Twilight thing- He's a favourite character of mine to after all).
I don't just bleat out 'out of character' automatically. Gee ain't I mature. 😀
That's just the Scoobies though, isn't it? No matter what a person does, they can never crack that inner sanctum. Again, this is why them heading off to Scotland with Faith left alone in Cleveland made perfect sense to me in the story. Did I want her left like that? Of course not, but it is definitely a plausible, if not expected story from this verse.
I think the unstable thing creeps in with Faith when she is alone. No matter how much she insists she's a loner, she needs people around her.
In truth, I have always viewed Faith as an ATS character and that is clearly where they took her character last season.
EVIL UU
Scooby
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Wow I am so excited I cannot even contain my enthusiasm literally take me in a manly fashion you dark stallions I am so oversexed!
I mean, is this the best they've got? Is this really how you hype a new season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer?
We'll see. The sales aren't exactly stellar.
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