First three seasons of Buffy better than the rest

I kind of agree. Although, I'd make a bit of a distinction. Most of the time people seem to just rate the seasons, but really in a way there were really 'eras' in the Buffyverse. The first three seasons were the 'high school years'. The next 2 were the 'college years'. While the last two were the 'post-mortems/somber/adult years'. Each had their own unique dynamics, really. For me I just really liked the dynamics of the high school years. All of the overlapping love triangles, the realistic growing pains of adolescence mixed with the supernatural (metaphors), the great antagonists, the library meetings, The Bronze, etc. Plus it helped having (in my opinion) the best two seasons (2 & 3) of the series in that era. Don't get me wrong there were some great things about the college era and even a few things in the final era that were great, but overall they were just not quite like the earlier 'high school years' era.
 
I would say at least No Place Like Home, Family, Fool for Love, Triangle, Checkpoint, Crush, The Body, Forever, Intervention, The Weight of the World, the Gift are on par with those eps.

I do agree s2 probably has stronger one off episodes, like Passion and IOHEFY are some of my top episodes ever. But it also had it's fair share of stinkers like Inca Mummy Girl, Reptile Boy, Bad Eggs, and Go Fish (which arguably, are worst than any s5 eps). And I actually think When She Was Bad is a fairly weak opener (which to be fair Dracula is even worst). Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love s2, but I find some weakpoint often get overlooked in favour of highschool nostalgia. The good is REALLY good, but the bad is also, well, bad
 
Fuffy Baith
Fuffy Baith
But that's why it's caked nostalgia! Lol
I pretty much 100% agree with all of that. I like the high school and library setting. I do love Cordelia on Buffy more though. I also enjoy the more episodic format of the first 3 seasons. I like the focus more on vampires. I like the relationships bettter. There's some great stuff in the later seasons but overall I enjoy the first 3 more.
 
I've thought of a couple more things:

Giles: He has a much big and more secure role during the High School years. We get to see the Watcher persona that he has developed through years of training. We get to see glimpses of the Ripper persona that he has tried to move on from. His relationship with Buffy is very deep and interesting. He can be a father figure at times, an authority figure and other times encourage her to take the lead. Then we had his great chemistry with Jenny. They bounced off each other brilliantly. There's still lots of great Giles moments in the later years but he never quite fits in as well.

Snyder: He's such an unpleasant little troll but because of that he gets a great line almost every time he's on screen. It also provides such a great folly for everyone else to bounce off. The kids can be scared of him or hating him. Giles has to manage him to keep his job but also gets a few barbs in. He's a minor character who is really great value.
 
The problem is that I'm not a big fan of the first season for many reasons which I won't bore you with again😉 Its heavily flawed and I still think its the weakest season of the show (and yes that does include 7). I still enjoy watching it, but yeah its that season which drags this argument down a bit. Two gets of to a strong start, then is a bit bumpy, but by the mid-way point it hits top gear and the show as a whole never really looks back. 3 is the best ever, so no disagreements there. 4 I will defend because despite not careing about Riley, and the Inlitive it does feature some of the best episodes ever, and my favourite season finale ever, and there is still lots of good character growth with the Scoobies and Spike. Five is my third favourite season. The Dawn storyline is interesting despite how annoying she is start with, MT does knock it out the park. Love Glory as a big bad (sorry!), and the development of the Buffy-Spike story is great, and Giles finds a new purpose too, and Tara feels a more well rounded character. So then its the last two seasons which maybe are the rocky ones, still plenty of good in both, but not my favourites. In short this is a tougher call than many would think🙂
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
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Oh yes, fun Buffy. I miss that girl. Growing up doesn't have to mean the death of your inner light.


What sucks about the first two seasons is how dark, visually the show is. As in low light and grainy and hard to see. Sometimes that gets in the way of me enjoying it as much as I could. I find it distracting.

I actually like how visually dark the show is (until I try to make art with the screencaps that is...) in the beginning.
 
I certainly think the 'high school is hell' metaphors were much better realised than the 'growing up is so hard' ones of the later seasons. I also tend to think of Season 4 as the light-hearted buffer between 1-3 and 5-7.
However, there are things to recommend the later seasons, Some characters get better imo, other get worse. Episode arcs become more common later on, but if you like a solid MotW then the earlier seasons have more to offer.
I also think the metaphor's surrounding the slayer herself are nicely handled during the adult years- at least in Season's 5 & 6.
 
Considering life continues to throw sh*t at you even when you're in you're much, much older It's a pity Whedon will never mine that side of things to create metaphors. I mean the young shouldn't have the complete monopoly on it surely, and Buffy might actually reach her 50's!. 😀
 
Considering life continues to throw sh*t at you even when you're in you're much, much older It's a pity Whedon will never mine that side of things to create metaphors. I mean the young shouldn't have the complete monopoly on it surely, and Buffy might actually reach her 50's!. 😀
Really? I can't picture Buffy middle aged. She's kind of like Princess Diana that way. Except for demons instead of car accident of course.
 
Most shows are at their best in season 2, 3.
It's still fresh, new and shiny. 🙂

After a few seasons things needs to change.
In Buffy they needed to leave the highschool.

These changes that more or less has to happened will change the dynamic of a show.
And I can feel that it almost doesn't really matter if the changes are for the better or not. It's still not the same.
Not sure if anyone can understand that reasoning....

For Buffy I can think that season 4 is one of the best when you actually look at each episode.
But it's still not the highschool, not the library and all those classic. And no matter how good the episode, or the season, is I will always miss that a bit and therefor I can't help to think of season 2 and 3 as the better seasons.

/SK
 
1. at least in theory, I prefer the post-high school years for the reason that the characters are less insular and they have to integrate their slaying responsibilities with wider responsibilities in the world at large. Also, at least in theory, the issues of the characters take on magnified importance as they come to grips with real, adult issues; the kind which younger people can take for granted because they live in a sterilized, insular emotional environment (they have wide support groups and support nets, no real responsibilities, etc.). The charm of the early seasons for me is in its focus (an insular high school environment aids that), but the later seasons are more interesting because the issues are more real. What do I mean by real? For example, I can't take their relationship issues seriously, because high school relationships are almost always frivolous; partly because no one is ever really very close to who they will mature into in their later years at that age, and partly because an insular environment like high school (remember how big a deal it was just to get lunch off campus during school hours for the scoobies? That's the degree we are talking about, metaphor or literally) almost isn't realistic by definition (by the standards of the broader outside adult world) and expectations, emotional investments, etc. aren't realistic in high school relationships as a consequence.

2. Cordy I like in both the early years and AtS years. I think I prefer the Angel years though, all in all. She still has a lot of that funny, sharp tongue of the early years, but she's also less of a one-note character too. But we are talking about high school cordy versus no Cordy in later Btvs. I will agree Anya is not a substitute, although I myself never really thought of her as one.

3. I'm inclined to agree.

4. I'm ambivalent about this one. Mixed feelings.

5. Mixed feelings about this too. Angel was far more interesting for me on his own show. The trade I guess is for Anya, Tara, Dawn and later, Andrew. Anya and Andrew can be cast aside, but Tara is worth it (and worth much more than Oz, at least to me) and I happen to really like Dawn, if only for season 5 (yes, yes, I know how most of you feel about her). So for me it ends up being a push---except that with Angel leaving we get two great shows instead of one (if he had just stayed on Buffy). I'll take Dawn and Tara, Buffy S4 and S5 and a great [some might say better] new show in the full balance of things, easily.

6. I think objectively it is apples to oranges really. Although I know that is a hornet's nest for nearly everyone, so whatever. That's not to say that I think S6 Spuffy is all cookies and ice cream or anything either; it ain't.

7. I don't know, if S6 and S7 could be rewritten, keeping the general intention of going dark but in a myriad of better ways, I think later angsty, dark, conflicted, "storm and stress" Buffy would have been the superior Buffy to regard from a philosophical and artistic perspective. As it stands, a guy like me in particular is left with a lot to be desired with regard to the later seasons. It's deeply dissatisfying, hoping for a feast and expecting the best but instead being given a very poor substitute, some flavorless insubstantial rice cakes to eat instead. Man, S6 on paper could have easily been my favorite. Same could be said with S7. Instead, a series of very dubious decisions were made in S6, which made a great follow-up season harder...and then the potentials story line is introduced and the wheels of the main story arc come off. I'm sick of thinking about what could have been though. S6 got it only half right at best; S7 much less so.

Season 5 was nearly flawless though.

8. Faith I will leave to everyone else to discuss. She doesn't generate as strong of feelings for me.

9. The bronze and the library were cool, I concur.

10. People who say these kinds of thing about Dawn and the key arc I think miss the whole point and the bigger picture about her. She evolved the character of Buffy unlike any other character or event in the show. Dawn was the impetus for Buffy transcending her prior self-centered-ness and she was the catalyst for the many epiphanies Buffy underwent to transform from girl to adult. Many people who say she was merely a stupid key idea will turn around and say how much they loved The Gift as one of their favorite episodes. Well, that episode loses ALL meaning and emotional potency if you remove Dawn from the equation. Buffy's supreme self-sacrifice, to which she had been building from the inception of Dawn and through the death of her mother, is a meaningful sacrifice ONLY in the context of what Dawn meant to her and how much Dawn changed her. I get why people find Dawn annoying, although I do not find her that annoying myself (different topic). But to say she didn't add anything to the show?!? She changed the nature of Buffy in countless more meaningful and significant ways than Spike or Angel ever did; which is what made S6 and S7 so disappointing to me, because the show could have really capitalized on the artistic success of S5 and taken the show to even higher and more interesting places than where it ended up.
 
I like all the seasons but I have to say I prefer the later seasons. I was more invested in the characters and hanging on the edge of my seat to see where the story could possibly go next. Mr Pole you seem so nice but we seem destined to be on the opposite sides of everything. 🙁

I'm with you about S4 through about mid s6.

I'm sorry Sports Blazer, but there is no way you can compare 2 to 5. When She Was Bad, School Hard, Halloween, Lie To Me, The Dark Age, What's My Line, Surprise, Innocence, Phases, Passion, Killed by Death, I Only Have Eyes for You, Becoming. That's 15 good episodes. I think there are maybe 8 good episodes in season 5.

@GoSpuffy mentioned it. It is the emotional element and investment that makes S5 stand out by comparison to the other seasons. Half those episodes you listed are really pretty frivolous. They were enjoyable, but they were fruit stripes bubble gum and cotton candy compared to the grip and tension and build up of S5. Also, S5 was waaay more consistent than S2. I would file a full half of the episodes of S2 under garbage. S2 is a good but not great season. S5 is great. And the Body is an artistic masterpiece, a rare television achievement. Some Assembly required? Inca Mummy Girl? Reptile boy? Ted, Bad Eggs, Go Fish...feel free to stop me at any point. These were all discardables.....
 
I certainly think the 'high school is hell' metaphors were much better realised than the 'growing up is so hard' ones of the later seasons.

This pretty much summarizes what you need to know. The later topic matter was much more ambitious, but the creative staff could not rise to the challenge.
 
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GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
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1. at least in theory, I prefer the post-high school years for the reason that the characters are less insular and they have to integrate their slaying responsibilities with wider responsibilities in the world at large. Also, at least in theory, the issues of the characters take on magnified importance as they come to grips with real, adult issues; the kind which younger people can take for granted because they live in a sterilized, insular emotional environment (they have wide support groups and support nets, no real responsibilities, etc.). The charm of the early seasons for me is in its focus (an insular high school environment aids that), but the later seasons are more interesting because the issues are more real. What do I mean by real? For example, I can't take their relationship issues seriously, because high school relationships are almost always frivolous; partly because no one is ever really very close to who they will mature into in their later years at that age, and partly because an insular environment like high school (remember how big a deal it was just to get lunch off campus during school hours for the scoobies? That's the degree we are talking about, metaphor or literally) almost isn't realistic by definition (by the standards of the broader outside adult world) and expectations, emotional investments, etc. aren't realistic in high school relationships as a consequence.

2. Cordy I like in both the early years and AtS years. I think I prefer the Angel years though, all in all. She still has a lot of that funny, sharp tongue of the early years, but she's also less of a one-note character too. But we are talking about high school cordy versus no Cordy in later Btvs. I will agree Anya is not a substitute, although I myself never really thought of her as one.

3. I'm inclined to agree.

4. I'm ambivalent about this one. Mixed feelings.

5. Mixed feelings about this too. Angel was far more interesting for me on his own show. The trade I guess is for Anya, Tara, Dawn and later, Andrew. Anya and Andrew can be cast aside, but Tara is worth it (and worth much more than Oz, at least to me) and I happen to really like Dawn, if only for season 5 (yes, yes, I know how most of you feel about her). So for me it ends up being a push---except that with Angel leaving we get two great shows instead of one (if he had just stayed on Buffy). I'll take Dawn and Tara, Buffy S4 and S5 and a great [some might say better] new show in the full balance of things, easily.

6. I think objectively it is apples to oranges really. Although I know that is a hornet's nest for nearly everyone, so whatever. That's not to say that I think S6 Spuffy is all cookies and ice cream or anything either; it ain't.

7. I don't know, if S6 and S7 could be rewritten, keeping the general intention of going dark but in a myriad of better ways, I think later angsty, dark, conflicted, "storm and stress" Buffy would have been the superior Buffy to regard from a philosophical and artistic perspective. As it stands, a guy like me in particular is left with a lot to be desired with regard to the later seasons. It's deeply dissatisfying, hoping for a feast and expecting the best but instead being given a very poor substitute, some flavorless insubstantial rice cakes to eat instead. Man, S6 on paper could have easily been my favorite. Same could be said with S7. Instead, a series of very dubious decisions were made in S6, which made a great follow-up season harder...and then the potentials story line is introduced and the wheels of the main story arc come off. I'm sick of thinking about what could have been though. S6 got it only half right at best; S7 much less so.

Season 5 was nearly flawless though.

8. Faith I will leave to everyone else to discuss. She doesn't generate as strong of feelings for me.

9. The bronze and the library were cool, I concur.

10. People who say these kinds of thing about Dawn and the key arc I think miss the whole point and the bigger picture about her. She evolved the character of Buffy unlike any other character or event in the show. Dawn was the impetus for Buffy transcending her prior self-centered-ness and she was the catalyst for the many epiphanies Buffy underwent to transform from girl to adult. Many people who say she was merely a stupid key idea will turn around and say how much they loved The Gift as one of their favorite episodes. Well, that episode loses ALL meaning and emotional potency if you remove Dawn from the equation. Buffy's supreme self-sacrifice, to which she had been building from the inception of Dawn and through the death of her mother, is a meaningful sacrifice ONLY in the context of what Dawn meant to her and how much Dawn changed her. I get why people find Dawn annoying, although I do not find her that annoying myself (different topic). But to say she didn't add anything to the show?!? She changed the nature of Buffy in countless more meaningful and significant ways than Spike or Angel ever did; which is what made S6 and S7 so disappointing to me, because the show could have really capitalized on the artistic success of S5 and taken the show to even higher and more interesting places than where it ended up.
 


I'm with you about S4 through about mid s6.



@GoSpuffy mentioned it. It is the emotional element and investment that makes S5 stand out by comparison to the other seasons. Half those episodes you listed are really pretty frivolous. They were enjoyable, but they were fruit stripes bubble gum and cotton candy compared to the grip and tension and build up of S5. Also, S5 was waaay more consistent than S2. I would file a full half of the episodes of S2 under garbage. S2 is a good but not great season. S5 is great. And the Body is an artistic masterpiece, a rare television achievement. Some Assembly required? Inca Mummy Girl? Reptile boy? Ted, Bad Eggs, Go Fish...feel free to stop me at any point. These were all discardables.....
 


This pretty much summarizes what you need to know. The later topic matter was much more ambitious, but the creative staff could not rise to the challenge.

1. Not sure about this. I mean if everyone is treated equally then I don't think you can say that the issues faced by High School kids are any less worse than those of adults, different maybe, but certainly in their own way just as tough. For all its flaws I think the debut season of Buffy does a really good job representating some of these issues, and the second season too. Xander's crush on Buffy and the scene where she tries to let him down lightly being a perfect example, and the theme of bullying is also handled really well.

2. Oh Cordy is far from a one-note character in Buffy. She may start that way, but that is partly to set up her growth and to subvert the stereotype. She goes on to be way more complex, witty and sharp than your avenge Queen Bee😉 The version of Cordy in the early seasons of Angel is just an extenison of that. IMO over time they try to make the character too dark and it just doesn't work.

3. Yeah four is the one I'm really mixed on too. Such an up and down season, but the highs are so high than I guess it still ranks as one of the best for me. Also, visually I like how the new space of the College is constructed compared with that of Sunnydale High.

4. Thing is if you only judge Spuffy on 6 I can see how badly it might come across but to me you have to judge it for me from season 4 up to 6 at least, maybe even since Spike's debut. Judging it based on that I think shows just what a bold and rich relationship it is.

And I agree that there are far more bad episodes in 2 than 5, but then I think most of them are in the early part of the season and when you get into the Angelus arc the season bar Go Fish doesn't look back. Its close between those two seasons for my second favourite after 3.
 
AnthonyCordova
AnthonyCordova
ill respond after work
I absolutely think that seasons 1-3 were the best. They're what I think of when I think of Buffy. We have the classic Buffy vibe and original conception of the show, which was "high school is hell". The high school and library settings were my favorite, the characters were at their best imo (their happiest, their funniest, their cutest, sweetest, etc), their relationships with each were at their strongest, the show had the best mix of arc eps and one-off eps, and the best mix of emotional moments and funny lighthearted moments. I thought the line up of characters was at its best here, with Buffy, Angel, cute Willow, Xander, Cordelia, nice Giles, Oz, Spike, Drusilla, Faith, The Mayor, and we even get some Anya. I also really like the nostalgic 90s fashion and grittier, darker-looking film quality. It made me feel cozy, like I was really in this small town of Sunnydale, something which definitely changed later on.

There is a lot I love about the show later on, such as Anya, Dawn, Dark Willow, Glory, Spike realizing he loves Buffy, etc. But I do think sometimes the writing choices weren't always perfect. A lot of the characters lost their sparkle. I spent a lot of the time feeling sad and thinking these poor people's lives suck now. The later seasons were pretty uneven.

Each of seasons 4-7 had definite problems. Season 4-the college setting felt too "big" and jarring to me, as did the idea of the military being involved. Adam sucked and Riley was pretty dull. I mourned Oz, Cordy, Angel, the high school and the library. Hell, I even missed Snyder. Some awesome stand alone episodes, and there was still a lot of joy there tho.

Season 5-I appreciated the return to Buffy's house, I loved Glory and I really like Dawn. Spike loves Buffy! But with Joyce dying, Buffy quitting school, the extreme threat of Glory and then Buffy dying, the show got a lot darker and joyless and stayed that way. I didn't like the lack of fun standalone monster of the week format. From here on out I think the show is a little too focused on the main season arc. I did like Buffy's self discoveries during this season

Season 6-almost no humor or happy moments! I didn't mind the darkness in itself, but it still feels like an entirely different show with different characters, even the core four

Season 7-some good, some bad. Most of it a mess..
 
@Mr Pole
First of all. Nice declaration of love to season 1-3. I like that. But also I am feeling a little bit sad (for you 😉 )

Buffy is always about growing up. Standstill is no option there. So funny-Buffy has to evolve. Also a big bad (but also funny) season 2 Spike has to evolve. And so on.

For me there is never a less, only a more. You win more.

But hey. Only my point of view, looking at the larger picture, what the show is about.

And because everything is connected with everything in the show (i.e. Willow wearing in Restless her season 1, episode 1 outfit) comparing single episodes with other single episodes in a negative way ... well, thats just not feeling the right way.

Diversity is a gain, not a loss. Every season benefits form the season(s) before. Maybe its just me, but I cant get enough of this. The sum of it is so much more then the single parts before.
 
GoSpuffy
GoSpuffy
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