Which is directly contradicted in canon so I wonder why people argue like that. Angel had heroic inclinations long before even Joyce was born (so to speak). Aside from the fact that Angel thought due to his evil past he wasn't worth anything there is also the fact that whenever he tried to be 'heroic' humanity showed him it's worst face. So on top of feeling worthless, people also weren't worth saving. I thought that was nicely done in the AYNHYEB flashbacks and Angel voices that again to Faith in S3 of Buffy.
I personally wouldn't wanna go into 'what if' scenarios because I like the story just how it was done. Although if we had Angelus from the start there might not have been a need for a resident evil soulles vamp so no Spike pops up in Season 2...
Respectfully disagree. Yes, he had an impulse to help one person in AYNHYEB, but even though he knew that everyone's paranoia was because of a demon, he left them all to die. Angel, after he met Buffy, would have gone after the demon. I think that shows the big difference. He also speaks about hanging out with the Rat Pack, going to Elvis's wedding, doing things that a human would enjoy that have nothing to do with good or evil. Faced with the chance to feed, he feeds off a dying/dead man, and then punishes himself by living in alleys and eating rats. Even if he had some heroic impulses at times it was only after being with Buffy that he knew what to do to bring those impulses to fruition.
---------- Post added at 05:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------
I think that depends on how they would have portrayed Angel with a soul. If it was the same Angel that we get in seasons 1 and 2, then yea she probably would have. It might have taken some big self sacrificing moment on his part for her to see that he is truly good, but she would have gotten there.
I think we're missing a connection here.
You said you thought Buffy would fall in love even if Angel didn't have a soul - or that's how I interpreted your words. So wouldn't she be dealing with Angelus?
---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:05 PM ----------
Spike continues to wear that coat long after his association with Buffy, it might be a trapping, but its a trapping he enjoys wearing.
Spike calls himself a monster in S5 of Buffy, he knows that he's a monster and has awareness of his evil actions, he just doesn't care. See 'Lies My Parents Told Me' for Spike's reactions to his own evil acts. Sort of the same really, the same bravado, the same pride, no real shame there, despite him having a soul.
Spike would've worn the amulet in S5, before he got a soul, its just the motivation that would've been different. He helps others (Dawn) without a soul, because of his love for Buffy. Again, only the unknowablility of his motives changes, not his actual behaviour.
I mean, I guess you can argue that he's more cut off and subdued in S7 from the craziness, or the First's influence and the trigger. But after the trigger is removed he's arguably just as confident in himself as unsouled Spike was. See 'Touched' where he swaggers in and reads everybody the riot act, throws down with Faith and then leaves. I can easily see evil/chipped Spike acting that way. Again, no real change in who Spike is/acts.
Spike follows Angels example in S5 of Angel, not before. His contempt for Angel on Buffy is obvious both pre and post-soul.
But after 'Damages' we see the first signs of changes, as Spike admits to Angel, he starts to get his point of view, the attoning for past mistakes/sins, even if they weren't actually 'his'.
I agree with a lot of this - particularly how long it took for Spike to even begin seeing his past in a new light. Damage was definitely where he began to own his actions. And Lawson's return sealed that - Spike and Angel staring out the window remebering something no one else can.
And yes - he is always shown regarding Angel with contempt. I'm not saying he loved Angel and made a conscious choice to follow him. There's a strong belief in basic psychology that in real life we are always reacting to our parents - we either want to be just like them or want to be completely different (generally it end up being a combination of both). Even when Spike wanted to be completely difference it was still about Angel (rather like Angelus keeping the fascination with Buffy that Angel had but not the love). Once the sh*t hit the fan, suddenly Spike is following in Angel's footsteps. I don't think that what he says matters as much as what he does. If Angel had not been part of his life I don't believe he would have even thought of getting a soul.
Spike calls himself a monster in season 5 - but then he fights on the same side of Buffy, tries to save Dawn, and even though Buffy is dead (please don't say he's trying to get into her decaying pants) he follows through on his promise and takes care of Dawn. The fact that he is still a monster makes this all the more remarkable, really. Giles, their leader, leaves. Spike stays and fights on the same side as the Scoobs. Yes, he would have died to save Dawn or Buffy - for a whole raft of reasons. Again, he is still a monster but he chooses to stay and protect those that Buffy loved. No, he probably has no farks to give about anyone else.
The coat is stored in the basement until Buffy calls him on being weak and tells him that she wants the same vampire who tried to kill her when they met. Buffy tells him to become what he was, so he takes on his old guise and goes off to kill a demon for her. Buffy needs him to be a predator again, a fighter, so that's what he becomes.
LMPTM - why is it that those who complain never seem to bring in the fact that this all happens during a planned murder attempt. It's not like he decided to pick a fight with Wood. Giles took the role of keeping Buffy away while Wood killed Spike. This is the same Giles who said Spike was fighting the effect of the stone (memory buried for a reason here - not going to get it within minutes). The result is that Spike gets his memory back and chooses not to kill Wood or Giles. That is showing the same restraint that Buffy used when she chose not to kill Ben - and not the practicality that Giles used when he did kill Ben.
He's not ashamed. He makes it clear, even into Ats that he sees what he did as being the action of a predator because he was a predator. Now he is not a predator, and it's what he does now that counts. Yes, that's a rationalization, but he's only been souled for a few months, not an entire century.
As far as Touched is concerned - meh. He acts like he should when everyone is completely acting out of character. I think what he eventually shares with Buffy is unselfish and beautiful. One thing I don't think a lot of people appreciate is that the First is always trying to tear the group apart. Think of the Yoko Effect on steroids. All it would need is the right words overheard for people to begin to lose trust in each other and in Buffy. We know that the First is powerful enough to convince someone to commit suicide - we know the First is a mindfarker extraordinaire. So the real fight at this point is the one for hearts and minds. Spike - simply because he is crippled and still has no moral compass - follows Buffy because he knows how the First works better than anyone. He sees Buffy as intrinsically good - the only one who will not change because of the First, the only safe person to blindly follow.
I think we are pulling this discussion off topic - maybe we should start a new thread. I'm really enjoying this.
🙂
