For The Fans Who Like Angel

[bespangeled]

He saved that puppy...

But, seriously, how do we know exactly how Angel EVER cared about people prior to falling in love with Buffy at first sight? We never saw him having any friends, or even people who he was on speaking terms with unless they literally forced themselves on him. We never either see or hear of Angel making any friendly contact with anyone prior to Sunnydale. (I put no credence whatsoever in his being at Elvis' wedding, either as an invited guest or as a wedding crasher. A quick search reveals this wedding menu for the King's wedding :
The Menu

Ham and eggs

Southern Fried Chicken

Oysters Rockefeller,

Roast Suckling Pig,

Poached and Candied Salmon,

Lobster,

Eggs Minnette,

Wedding Cake
(Pricilla's famous
6 tiered cake)

champagne

Source: http://kitchenproject.com/history/elvis/Elvis.htm

Ain't no nanner sammiges there!)

He said they thought he was a member of the band - so not invited, kinda crashed. I don't think he was joking.

Mmmm...lobster....

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

This scenario pretty much sounds like Angelus would have Spike's character arc, which isn't really appealing to me in the slightest. And I think this is inevitably going to lead into another shipper war, if it hasn't already begun.

I think it was our introduction to Angel being ensouled, Buffy falling for him, and his pretty explicit reluctance/abject terror at the idea of his soul leaving his body at the end of "Surprise"/beginning of "Innocence" that made him very sympathetic. If we were introduced to him as a soulless monster from the beginning, I would have a LOT of trouble learning to trust him as a viewer. It could still happen, but I can see there being a lot of unfortunate implications if the Buffy falling in love with him aspect wasn't handled VERY carefully.

Also, Angel did prevent Darla from killing that family at first during the Boxer Rebellion, and later saved their child when Darla tried to coerce him into feasting on it. If pre-Buffy ensouled Angel was as self centered as some people claim, he would have just let Darla feed on them while not partaking himself. But he didn't, so he clearly had heroic inclinations before 1997.

At that stage he was still killing humans - he just killed criminals. Obviously he wanted to try living with his family - even souled he missed them. But that was too hard - he couldn't killed innocents. You're right, he tried to save the missionaries and he did save the baby.

I don't think he was self centered - I think he was lost and trying to find a purpose. He tried to be human, he tried to stay away from humans. I'm not saying he never rescued humans, I am saying Buffy was the one who put it all together for him - gave him purpose and a glimpse of how to redeem himself. If he was already doing all that before he met her then she had far less influence on him, and I disagree with that. Part of the reason that he loved Buffy is that she accepted him and saw him as a good man, so he could be a good man.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

and yes to Dark Angel here too 😀

 

[Robb Stark]

This is kind of a strange question because you're just describing Spike's arc. It feels a bit like the real question here is "does Buffy/the audience love Angel because he had a soul first".

If that is the implied premise of the thread then I would say sure, that's part of it. Spike's relationship with Buffy in S7 is kind of different because Buffy never knew the "real" Spike before that. She knew Angel before he was Angelus. It's just...I don't know, different.

I mean, it depends almost totally upon the portrayal. Angel and Angelus have radical character differences. Spike and "Spike-us" do not. We can nit-pick that all day, but the straight up fact is that the difference between Spike with a soul and Spike without one is not nearly as pronounced as Angel with and without one. I mean, that's not even really interpretable.

 

[white avenger]

This is kind of a strange question because you're just describing Spike's arc. It feels a bit like the real question here is "does Buffy/the audience love Angel because he had a soul first".

The question was asked because I was curious as to how much the viewers' first impression of the character affected their feelings for them. For instance, I first started watching the show in Season 6 when Buffy and Spike were allies and
friends, and I never knew anything about Angel until I found the show in syndication, where Season 2 Angelus was terrorizing Sunnydale.

Almost certainly, my first impressions of Spike and Angel influenced my assessment of the characters, and I was just wondering if the same thing applied to any other fans here.

 

[bespangeled]

This is kind of a strange question because you're just describing Spike's arc. It feels a bit like the real question here is "does Buffy/the audience love Angel because he had a soul first".

If that is the implied premise of the thread then I would say sure, that's part of it. Spike's relationship with Buffy in S7 is kind of different because Buffy never knew the "real" Spike before that. She knew Angel before he was Angelus. It's just...I don't know, different.

I mean, it depends almost totally upon the portrayal. Angel and Angelus have radical character differences. Spike and "Spike-us" do not. We can nit-pick that all day, but the straight up fact is that the difference between Spike with a soul and Spike without one is not nearly as pronounced as Angel with and without one. I mean, that's not even really interpretable.

Spike's soul is more integrated with his personality. His goals and methods change to a degree, but not his outward appearance. If he were to lose his soul, he would not turn into a sadistic monster. He would most likely be pissed and go get a new one.

Angel and Angelus appear almost as two separate beings. It's very clear cut which is which in part because when he loses his soul he becomes a sadistic monster. He needs to be caged, and even then he is a major mind farker because Angelus knows all the secrets that Angel knows.

I still don't understand how that makes Angel better in some way. It does make Angelus a far better demon, though.

 

[Robb Stark]

The question was asked because I was curious as to how much the viewers' first impression of the character affected their feelings for them. For instance, I first started watching the show in Season 6 when Buffy and Spike were allies and
friends, and I never knew anything about Angel until I found the show in syndication, where Season 2 Angelus was terrorizing Sunnydale.

Almost certainly, my first impressions of Spike and Angel influenced my assessment of the characters, and I was just wondering if the same thing applied to any other fans here.

Ah, okay, I got you. I would say that's probably part of it. I mean, I watched the show sequentially so I got all the arcs in order. Honestly, it's a little difficult for me to visualize Angel without a soul from the beginning. Spike was likable from the get-go, so he was a character I always liked pretty much up until he got his soul. If Angelus had been the first to arrive? I'm sure that would negatively affect how I view him, simply because that would have been my first exposure to him. That's just a guess though. I'm not really sure.

Spike's soul is more integrated with his personality. His goals and methods change to a degree, but not his outward appearance. If he were to lose his soul, he would not turn into a sadistic monster. He would most likely be pissed and go get a new one.

Angel and Angelus appear almost as two separate beings. It's very clear cut which is which in part because when he loses his soul he becomes a sadistic monster. He needs to be caged, and even then he is a major mind farker because Angelus knows all the secrets that Angel knows.

I still don't understand how that makes Angel better in some way. It does make Angelus a far better demon, though.

You had a nice outline of it, and I suppose it's possible for them to be different, but it just strikes me as a little strange that Angel and Angelus are SO different, so unique, from one another while Spike and his soulless counterpart don't have that same level of distinction. It's easy to say that Angel is "better" (even though I haven't said that, you have 🙂) because it's weird that Spike would continue so much of what he did without a soul when he has one.

Angelus appears to establish pretty clearly that a vampire without a soul is radically different than a vampire with one. Then Spike gets a soul and that previously clear line is blurred more than ever. That naturally makes people look for a clarification. As such it becomes easier to say, even if it isn't what the writers were intending, that Spike doesn't care as much about what happened prior to him getting a soul. I'm not saying that's true or what I believe (it isn't really) but it is behind the opinion of what you're asking.

 

[thetopher]

Spike's soul is more integrated with his personality. His goals and methods change to a degree, but not his outward appearance. If he were to lose his soul, he would not turn into a sadistic monster. He would most likely be pissed and go get a new one.

Angel and Angelus appear almost as two separate beings. It's very clear cut which is which in part because when he loses his soul he becomes a sadistic monster. He needs to be caged, and even then he is a major mind farker because Angelus knows all the secrets that Angel knows.

I still don't understand how that makes Angel better in some way. It does make Angelus a far better demon, though.

To be honest, yeah if somebody feels guilty about all the bad stuff they did, even though to every outside observer he acts like a completley different person from the monster who did those things, then I do think he's better (or at least appears better) than somebody who seems exactly the same with or without soul but who then doesn't particularly care on all about the lives he's taken.

It's an emotive response I know, but I like people to at least show some guilt about all the blood on thier hands, even if their not actually responsible for it. It's marked as a human trait.

Angel, by feeling the weight of every bad thing he did, and letting it define his life as an evil fighter, becomes noble.

Spike, who got a soul through love, and now defines himself by hanging around that former love (and aiding her in fighting, no doubt) pales a little in comparison.

 

[bespangeled]

Ah, okay, I got you. I would say that's probably part of it. I mean, I watched the show sequentially so I got all the arcs in order. Honestly, it's a little difficult for me to visualize Angel without a soul from the beginning. Spike was likable from the get-go, so he was a character I always liked pretty much up until he got his soul. If Angelus had been the first to arrive? I'm sure that would negatively affect how I view him, simply because that would have been my first exposure to him. That's just a guess though. I'm not really sure.



You had a nice outline of it, and I suppose it's possible for them to be different, but it just strikes me as a little strange that Angel and Angelus are SO different, so unique, from one another while Spike and his soulless counterpart don't have that same level of distinction. It's easy to say that Angel is "better" (even though I haven't said that, you have 🙂) because it's weird that Spike would continue so much of what he did without a soul when he has one.

Angelus appears to establish pretty clearly that a vampire without a soul is radically different than a vampire with one. Then Spike gets a soul and that previously clear line is blurred more than ever. That naturally makes people look for a clarification. As such it becomes easier to say, even if it isn't what the writers were intending, that Spike doesn't care as much about what happened prior to him getting a soul. I'm not saying that's true or what I believe (it isn't really) but it is behind the opinion of what you're asking.

You know, before they were vampires they were all humans first. We give credit for different personalities to dogs and cats! We never expect Willow to react the same way as Dawn - Butty fights and Tara does magic, and I have no idea what each of them does for menstrual cramps but I suspect it's not the same.

William was a mama's boy with money and education. Angel was a rather dramatic drunkard and rabble rouser with less education. Even Darla said that the human you were informs the vampire you become. I have no idea what would happen if Dru got a soul but I suspect it would be altogether different from the other two. Darla sure as hell saw being human again with a soul far differently than Angel would. Why are they supposed to have the same reaction to being souled when they don't have the same reaction to much of anything else? Why is someone who has a souled for a few months supposed to act just like someone who has been souled for a century?

 

[Xin Rong]

You know, before they were vampires they were all humans first. We give credit for different personalities to dogs and cats! We never expect Willow to react the same way as Dawn - Butty fights and Tara does magic, and I have no idea what each of them does for menstrual cramps but I suspect it's not the same.

William was a mama's boy with money and education. Angel was a rather dramatic drunkard and rabble rouser with less education. Even Darla said that the human you were informs the vampire you become. I have no idea what would happen if Dru got a soul but I suspect it would be altogether different from the other two. Darla sure as hell saw being human again with a soul far differently than Angel would. Why are they supposed to have the same reaction to being souled when they don't have the same reaction to much of anything else? Why is someone who has a souled for a few months supposed to act just like someone who has been souled for a century?

No one is saying that they can't react differently, at least that's what I'm taking from the discussion. It seems people are saying that Angel's reaction makes him more noble than Spike's does, because there is a reaction, rather than the:

'meh... so I killed a few thousand people, as long as I'm near Buffy who cares'

that we see with Spike.

 

[bespangeled]

To be honest, yeah if somebody feels guilty about all the bad stuff they did, even though to every outside observer he acts like a completley different person from the monster who did those things, then I do think he's better (or at least appears better) than somebody who seems exactly the same with or without soul but who then doesn't particularly care on all about the lives he's taken.

It's an emotive response I know, but I like people to at least show some guilt about all the blood on thier hands, even if their not actually responsible for it. It's marked as a human trait.

Angel, by feeling the weight of every bad thing he did, and letting it define his life as an evil fighter, becomes noble.

Spike, who got a soul through love, and now defines himself by hanging around that former love (and aiding her in fighting, no doubt) pales a little in comparison.

Candidly Topher, there is a bias there. Spike has had a soul for a few months. Angel had his for a century. You are comparing a first year piano student to a symphony musician. Angel spent over a century not being anything like the Angel who helped Buffy (though he did hone his brooding skills). I suspect that a few weeks after being souled he didn't have to sacrifice his life. He was still in a huge amount of pain with no one to help him.

Let's play the same game with slayers. Why are Buffy and Faith so different - I mean they are both slayers? Buffy protects people and is kind but Faith just want to cause fights, and back stab her. And when Faith "reforms" she comes to Buffy's house and just expects to be let in like they owe her something. She takes over and gets Buffy kicked out of her own home because she doesn't care about.....does that sound sound familiar. I don't believe a word of it (I love Faith and her incredible arc) but this is the standard comparison I always see between Spike and Angel. 🙁

I am not accusing you of that. But I am pointing out that Faith didn't weep and apologize and openly brood about all she has done. I suspect that doesn't matter to a lot of people when they compare her to Buffy because she's the slayer who cares about being a slayer and helping others. 🙄

All 4 of those are individuals with different life experiences and different personalities. Getting a soul is not like getting the a/c fixed. It's about how you respond to having a moral compass slammed into you. Spike - I have no doubt - would still be gibbering somewhere if Buffy hadn't needed him and told him she believed in him. Everything about Spike and Angel is different - so why would you expect them to respond in the exact same way.

Is Buffy better than Faith - depends on if you have some sort of measuring stick and what it is. Do Buffy and Faith feel the exact same way about being picked to be slayers? No.

Whew - sorry. Needed to get that out of my system. I do not mean to offend, and I apologize if I do.🙂

---------- Post added at 03:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 AM ----------

No one is saying that they can't react differently, at least that's what I'm taking from the discussion. It seems people are saying that Angel's reaction makes him more noble than Spike's does, because there is a reaction, rather than the:

'meh... so I killed a few thousand people, as long as I'm near Buffy who cares'

that we see with Spike.

And..Spike helping Buffy, then burning alive to save the world. No need to forget that part. Not all that selfish and shallow, I guess.

Let's play the slayer game - why isn't Faith more like Buffy? Now I can talk all sorts of crap about Faith - poisoning Angel, trying to kill Buffy, hooking up with the mayor because he bought her toys, stealing Buffy's body - BTVS gives me plenty of reason, and Faith's reform happened somewhere else. It's even easy to say Faith came back to take over and kick Buffy out. If that's what I believe you can't come up with a single argument to change my mind. I don't in any way believe that but some fans do. You feel a need to belittle Spike - but that really doesn't convince me of anything either

Faith does not beat her chest, and weep. I doubt she spent her time in jail brooding over victims. She goes to work and puts her life on the line. She and Spike are similar that way. ADD, Big Bad, and snark.

Meh - I don't feel either vampire is better - or either slayer is for that matter. Guess it's just personal taste. I see 4 very different personalities.

 

[Xin Rong]

Candidly Topher, there is a bias there. Spike has had a soul for a few months. Angel had his for a century. You are comparing a first year piano student to a symphony musician. Angel spent over a century not being anything like the Angel who helped Buffy (though he did hone his brooding skills). I suspect that a few weeks after being souled he didn't have to sacrifice his life. He was still in a huge amount of pain with no one to help him.

Let's play the same game with slayers. Why are Buffy and Faith so different - I mean they are both slayers? Buffy protects people and is kind but Faith just want to cause fights, and back stab her. And when Faith "reforms" she comes to Buffy's house and just expects to be let in like they owe her something. She takes over and gets Buffy kicked out of her own home because she doesn't care about.....does that sound sound familiar. I don't believe a word of it (I love Faith and her incredible arc) but this is the standard comparison I always see between Spike and Angel. 🙁

I am not accusing you of that. But I am pointing out that Faith didn't weep and apologize and openly brood about all she has done. I suspect that doesn't matter to a lot of people when they compare her to Buffy because she's the slayer who cares about being a slayer and helping others. 🙄

All 4 of those are individuals with different life experiences and different personalities. Getting a soul is not like getting the a/c fixed. It's about how you respond to having a moral compass slammed into you. Spike - I have no doubt - would still be gibbering somewhere if Buffy hadn't needed him and told him she believed in him. Everything about Spike and Angel is different - so why would you expect them to respond in the exact same way.

Is Buffy better than Faith - depends on if you have some sort of measuring stick and what it is. Do Buffy and Faith feel the exact same way about being picked to be slayers? No.

Whew - sorry. Needed to get that out of my system. I do not mean to offend, and I apologize if I do.🙂

---------- Post added at 03:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 AM ----------



And..Spike helping Buffy, then burning alive to save the world. No need to forget that part. Not all that selfish and shallow, I guess.

Let's play the slayer game - why isn't Faith more like Buffy? Now I can talk all sorts of crap about Faith - poisoning Angel, trying to kill Buffy, hooking up with the mayor because he bought her toys, stealing Buffy's body - BTVS gives me plenty of reason, and Faith's reform happened somewhere else. It's even easy to say Faith came back to take over and kick Buffy out. If that's what I believe you can't come up with a single argument to change my mind. I don't in any way believe that but some fans do. You feel a need to belittle Spike - but that really doesn't convince me of anything either

Faith does not beat her chest, and weep. I doubt she spent her time in jail brooding over victims. She goes to work and puts her life on the line. She and Spike are similar that way. ADD, Big Bad, and snark.

Meh - I don't feel either vampire is better - or either slayer is for that matter. Guess it's just personal taste. I see 4 very different personalities.

I don't really understand what you're talking about, what does Faith and Buffy have to do with this conversation - but since you brought them into it, I think it's fair to say that Buffy is a better slayer than Faith, just as Angel is a better champion than Spike - although Faith is way cooler than Buffy.

 

[bespangeled]

I don't really understand what you're talking about, what does Faith and Buffy have to do with this conversation - but since you brought them into it, I think it's fair to say that Buffy is a better slayer than Faith, just as Angel is a better champion than Spike - although Faith is way cooler than Buffy.

It's a comparison between two pairs of unique beings. Two young women who were called to be slayers and how they adapt to that calling, and two men became souled vampires, and how they adapted to the soul.

I don't see better or best, and that's the key difference. I don't need to rate them. I just appreciate their differences. I prefer to figure out the story of the character and not how they would compare in value.

 

[thetopher]

Candidly Topher, there is a bias there. Spike has had a soul for a few months. Angel had his for a century. You are comparing a first year piano student to a symphony musician. Angel spent over a century not being anything like the Angel who helped Buffy (though he did hone his brooding skills). I suspect that a few weeks after being souled he didn't have to sacrifice his life. He was still in a huge amount of pain with no one to help him.

Let's play the same game with slayers. Why are Buffy and Faith so different - I mean they are both slayers? Buffy protects people and is kind but Faith just want to cause fights, and back stab her. And when Faith "reforms" she comes to Buffy's house and just expects to be let in like they owe her something. She takes over and gets Buffy kicked out of her own home because she doesn't care about.....does that sound sound familiar. I don't believe a word of it (I love Faith and her incredible arc) but this is the standard comparison I always see between Spike and Angel. 🙁

I am not accusing you of that. But I am pointing out that Faith didn't weep and apologize and openly brood about all she has done. I suspect that doesn't matter to a lot of people when they compare her to Buffy because she's the slayer who cares about being a slayer and helping others. 🙄

All 4 of those are individuals with different life experiences and different personalities. Getting a soul is not like getting the a/c fixed. It's about how you respond to having a moral compass slammed into you. Spike - I have no doubt - would still be gibbering somewhere if Buffy hadn't needed him and told him she believed in him. Everything about Spike and Angel is different - so why would you expect them to respond in the exact same way.

Is Buffy better than Faith - depends on if you have some sort of measuring stick and what it is. Do Buffy and Faith feel the exact same way about being picked to be slayers? No.

Well, I was really just answering your question about why people view the two vampires differently, its because they act differently, so of course there's going to be some discussion/criticism about how they process things.

And to be candid right back Faith showed plenty of remorse on Angel, in 'Five By Five/Sanctuary' she showed herself to be utterly broken and torn part by what she'd done and what she'd let herself become. Then she spent 3 years off screen trying to become at peace with herself. But as was shown in 'Release' she was very much a work in progress. Wesley pushed her and she came veeerry close to snapping at him in a violent way. She has pain, but its buried pain, that scene made plain to the viewer.

Sure, Faith doesn't show a lot or remorse on Buffy, but that completely fit with her character. She closes herself off to Buffy deliberately, puts on a front and says she's just there to help. I'm sure she remembers one of the last things Buffy said to her 'If you apologise to me I will beat you to death'.
(Which is the why I think the bedroom scene between the two of them is so important, Faith doesn't apologise exactly, but she does try to explain why she did what she did to Buffy, and Buffy accepts that as a apology.)

Spike doesn't close himself off emotionally, he's the romantic, the dramatic guy- the one who wears his heart on his sleeve. He doesn't close himself off, a lot of what you see is what you get.
So I can only conclude that Spike doesn't really ponder or care about his bad old days, which is one way of dealing with it, hey, perhaps its better if you want for a happy and forfilling life, its just not that noble imo.

Also, I would add that Faith has to deal with the emotions/memories of killing 3 or so people and helping an evil guy try to end the world. (Which is very bad I grant you, doing all that with a soul particularly)

Spike has the memories of thousands of victims blood on his hands, people he's tortured and raped. He has the memories of those acts, not the culpability, but I see much more tormented guilt from Faith about her own darkness.

And since you brought up the student/master ananogy, lets use it in its proper context. Dealing with grief, guilt and the traumatic memories of horrible happenings takes more time, not less time for a person, by your logic Spike should be more broken than Angel, not less.


So, although Spike and Faith are similar in superficial ways (rebellious, cocky, sexy), I always though that Faith had way more in common with Angel, they get each other.
Atonement is kinda what their all about, not so much with Spike until later on.

 

[bespangeled]

Well, I was really just answering your question about why people view the two vampires differently, its because they act differently, so of course there's going to be some discussion/criticism about how they process things.

And to be candid right back Faith showed plenty of remorse on Angel, in 'Five By Five/Sanctuary' she showed herself to be utterly broken and torn part by what she'd done and what she'd let herself become. Then she spent 3 years off screen trying to become at peace with herself. But as was shown in 'Release' she was very much a work in progress. Wesley pushed her and she came veeerry close to snapping at him in a violent way. She has pain, but its buried pain, that scene made plain to the viewer.

Sure, Faith doesn't show a lot or remorse on Buffy, but that completely fit with her character. She closes herself off to Buffy deliberately, puts on a front and says she's just there to help. I'm sure she remembers one of the last things Buffy said to her 'If you apologise to me I will beat you to death'.
(Which is the why I think the bedroom scene between the two of them is so important, Faith doesn't apologise exactly, but she does try to explain why she did what she did to Buffy, and Buffy accepts that as a apology.)

Spike doesn't close himself off emotionally, he's the romantic, the dramatic guy- the one who wears his heart on his sleeve. He doesn't close himself off, a lot of what you see is what you get.
So I can only conclude that Spike doesn't really ponder or care about his bad old days, which is one way of dealing with it, hey, perhaps its better if you want for a happy and forfilling life, its just not that noble imo.

Also, I would add that Faith has to deal with the emotions/memories of killing 3 or so people and helping an evil guy try to end the world. (Which is very bad I grant you, doing all that with a soul particularly)

Spike has the memories of thousands of victims blood on his hands, people he's tortured and raped. He has the memories of those acts, not the culpability, but I see much more tormented guilt from Faith about her own darkness.

And since you brought up the student/master ananogy, lets use it in its proper context. Dealing with grief, guilt and the traumatic memories of horrible happenings takes more time, not less time for a person, by your logic Spike should be more broken than Angel, not less.


So, although Spike and Faith are similar in superficial ways (rebellious, cocky, sexy), I always though that Faith had way more in common with Angel, they get each other.
Atonement is kinda what their all about, not so much with Spike until later on.

Exactly - someone can interpret Faith differently than you or I would. She does get Angel - but I don't see her as like him. Faith doesn't brood, and other than when she went and turned herself in, I don't see her verbally expressing regret all that much. I don't see Buffy as a better slayer - I see her as having different strengths. Both are better in different ways, for different situations. Minor difference in how we see that bit.

I see Spike spending weeks in the basement driven insane by the memories - he tells Buffy that he can barely live with what he has done:

BUFFY
Right. The chip.

SPIKE
(incensed) No, not the chip! Not the chip, dammit. You honestly think I'd go to the end of the underworld and back to get my soul and then— (sighs, shakes head) Buffy, I can barely live with what I did. It haunts me. All of it. If you think that I would add to the body count now, you are crazy.

Ironically - if you read the original Beneath You script at Whedonverse the church scene was all about what Spike had done and how it was driving him insane. Joss changed it to make it about Buffy.

I see Spike begging Buffy to kill him twice - the first time saying he can't live with what he has done, the second time telling her how evil he is and how she is leaving everyone in danger if she lets him live. And while Spike is dramatic he's not likely to burst into tears in public. Faith can be out there, too but she also does not break down in public, which is why her breakdown after torturing Wes is so effective.

I can see you preferr Angel - not a big deal. I'm a Spangel fan, so I happen to love Angel. But what I tried to show when I talked trash about Faith is how hard it is to reason with someone who does that. Faith and Buffy are different - you may have a favorite or not based on who they are and how they react. Spike and Angel are different - you may have a favorite or not based on who they are and how they react. But in both cases they are the only two beings who share a rare position.

So prefer Angel by all means, but don't do it by ignoring what Spike does, or twisting it. That does a disservice to the series. And I have said the same things about Willow and Faith, so it's not just Spike that I defend in this way. That's how I knew how to trash Faith - the Willow complaint starts with the notion that she is a power hungry bitcah who is intrinsically selfish from the start.

Spike does not brood in the same way or as much as Angel. I simply tried to explain in personality and circumstances why I think that's true. Spike, after a month or so in the basement, was drawn into battling an apocalypse. He had to bury his pain in order to do that. He fought on the side of good, and burned to death to save the world. I can't quite figure why the fact he love Buffy is a negative, or how fighting and burning is seen as selfish and manipulative. (Please don't take this personally or make me go through the whole thread picking out examples).

And a century gives you time to resolve what your feelings are. A few months puts you in the denial/bargaining phase - where Angel was when he went back to join the others.

 

[thetopher]

Well, again, I was only really responding to your inplyed question about the comparisons between Spike and Angel. About how they both react to what about what they did in different ways.

Just like somebody can argue, very convincingly, that Buffy is a better slayer/human being or whatever than Faith, people can say the same about Spike and Angel.

And I'm not ignoring the fact that Spike did intiatly feel guilt for his past deeds, but it really didn't last beyond 'Never Leave Me', he gets over it way too quickly imo.
So much so that it could be argued that it was really just the First's influence driving him crazy. (just like it did with Angel in 'Amends')
I'm not really a fan of that theory though, I just think it speaks to Spike's mindset about being a vampire and what it means to him.

(Also, if you look at the comics, I see little to no evidence that Spike thinks, acknowledges or even dwells upon the things that 'he' has done in the past- and S10 is set years into him having a soul. I think its safe to say that he's over his guilt 'phase')

Let me put it another way, if I had a choice whether to hang out with pre- soul Spike or Angelus (and in some way manage not to get brually killed), I'd pick Spike.

Spike seems to me to be one of the nicer, more 'human' demons we see. He has some very human qualities that were informed by who he used to be. Mainly his psuedo-romanticism, his dramatic nature, his fondness for Mother types, etc

Angelus is a monster with no redeeming characteristics. He's vicious, backstabbing, brutal, he's a blowhard- he has to be in charge all the time, doesn't really play well with other vampires (like, for example, The Master). oh, and he's pretty much a coward when it comes to a fight where he doesn't in some way have the upper hand- he prays almost exclusivly upon the weak.
So, yeah, he's pretty much an asshole, even by vampires standards. I can't see any evidence of him having many evil friend types.

Spike is by far the nicer monster, but Angel is the better man. That's the only real way to sum it up for me.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

The Judge in Surprise 2x13 tells Spike and Drusilla:

THE JUDGE
You two stink of humanity.
You share affection. Jealousy...

then in Innocence 2x14 tells Angel:

THE JUDGE
I cannot burn this one. He is clean.

SPIKE
Clean? You mean he's -

THE JUDGE
There is no humanity in him.

ANGEL
Couldn't have said it better myself.

DRUSILLA
Angel...?

ANGEL
Yeah, baby. I'm back.

Spikeus still has the human emotions of love and jealousy whereas Angelus is completely devoid of anything good. Thus, there is less difference between Spikeus and Spike than Angelus and Angel. Both of them make good foils for each other.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Hmm, I know the Judge was created for the specific purpose of revealing that Angelus has no humanity, but his behavior in the rest of season 2 indicates otherwise. His obsession with Buffy is almost a warped variation of the love he felt for her as Angel. He remembers how he felt about her while he had a soul, and can't quite bring himself to kill her himself. She also proves to be a much more difficult victim to corrupt than Drusilla, so he's stuck in a stalemate that slowly drives him insane. Is it any wonder that awakening Acathla to take care of business for him seems like an awesome idea?

Also, if Dalton's love of books was enough to get him burned, I would argue that Angelus's love of ballet and the fine arts should have sent him up in flames as well.

 

[white avenger]

Also, if Dalton's love of books was enough to get him burned, I would argue that Angelus's love of ballet and the fine arts should have sent him up in flames as well.

Maybe Angelus' love of ballet and opera were more about just watching the happy meals on legs up on the stage like cattle ready for the slaughter than any real enjoyment of their performance. (Just a suggestion) If so, I don't think that it would count the same as Dalton's love of literature.

 

[bespangeled]

Hmm, I know the Judge was created for the specific purpose of revealing that Angelus has no humanity, but his behavior in the rest of season 2 indicates otherwise. His obsession with Buffy is almost a warped variation of the love he felt for her as Angel. He remembers how he felt about her while he had a soul, and can't quite bring himself to kill her himself. She also proves to be a much more difficult victim to corrupt than Drusilla, so he's stuck in a stalemate that slowly drives him insane. Is it any wonder that awakening Acathla to take care of business for him seems like an awesome idea?

Also, if Dalton's love of books was enough to get him burned, I would argue that Angelus's love of ballet and the fine arts should have sent him up in flames as well.

There are some people who theorize that the demon who was released was kinda crazy after being locked up with a soul for a century. It makes sense, but either way Big Blue was not meeting the same Angelus who loved ballet and other arts.

 

[SiegePerilous02]

Maybe Angelus' love of ballet and opera were more about just watching the happy meals on legs up on the stage like cattle ready for the slaughter than any real enjoyment of their performance. (Just a suggestion) If so, I don't think that it would count the same as Dalton's love of literature.

I don't think so. He said in "Waiting in the Wings" that one performance moved him to tears, and that was when he was soulless. That implies just as much humanity as Dalton loving to read. Doesn't make either of them any less of a monster. Ditto Spike and Dru and their "love" for each other.

@bespangeled: true, I think S2 Angelus was in a unique position in that he had lived a century with a soul and had distinct memories of that period, which is naturally going to screw with his head. Even so, ensouled Angel had a collection of classic literature and art at his mansion, a hobby which we know goes all the way back to his days with the Fanged Four. So that should have been present when the Judge met him.