Forgiveness? (SPOILERS! run away if you don't want to know!)

[AndrewCrossett]

Thing is... all of those 206 Slayers whose deaths Angel oversaw had people in their lives who were just as devastated by their deaths as Buffy and the Scoobies are by the death of Giles. So did the soldiers he sent to die pointless deaths at the hands of those goddesses in Tibet. As Scott Allie has assured us, he was under Twilight's influence at that time, but he was in charge of his own actions.

Back when we were all arguing whether the "greater good" excused his actions, I said I hoped we got to a point in the story when someone we know and care about had to die for that same "greater good," and we could see how we all felt about it then. And that's what happened. Giles died for the same reason all those others did... so that this world would end and Twilight would replace it.

Angel may have thought he was doing the right thing, but guess what? So has every other "killer with a cause" in world history, from the Crusaders and the Spanish Inquisition to Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson and Osama bin Laden. Certain actions are inherently evil, regardless of the excuses behind them. The killing of innocents is one of those things.

With magic gone, Angel can never become Angelus again, nor can he ever be possessed by anything. No more visions or prophecies or Powers or Jasmine or Wolfram & Hart or Twilight to manipulate him. No more curse, no more Shanshu.

He's now just another vampire, destiny-free, with his own decisions to make. The only way he can ever become a threat to the world again is through the usual non-magical way... by making bad decisions while in a position of power.

Forgiving someone should entail the condition that the person stop doing the thing he's to be forgiven for. Otherwise, it's just enabling a person to continue doing bad things with a clear conscience. Forgiving Angel now requires that he fundamentally change the way he thinks and acts. When your "redemption" causes more death and destruction than the things you're trying to be redeemed for, you need to re-assess things. Otherwise you're just a villain with a white hat.

 

[sosa lola]

I don't think Xander will forgive him but not because Giles was a father figure to him. I honestly don't see Xander looking at Giles as a father figure much. He was a role model maybe sometimes but no where near a father figure. He won't forgive Angel because he's never really forgiven Angel for anything. Honestly, I don't see Xander needing another reason to hate Angel because he already does... this just adds to it and gives him the perfect excuse. Both Willow and Buffy looked up to Giles like a father figure and they are two of the most important people in his life. He's not going to let that one go. He's going to use it to his advantage...

I disagree completely.

1) Xander had wanted Giles to be a father figure but it was a one sided desire, because Giles wasn't interested. You can see it in the way Xander jumps to help Giles whenever he asked, the way he forgets all about murdering Angel when he sees Giles hurt, the way he touches him... and Xander admits in his dream that he'd wanted Giles to be a father figure but he moved on, because Giles obviously didn't want to.

2) Xander had long stopped hating Angel. I don't think he likes him, but I think he came to accept him as part of the good guys long ago -in S3 he did it for Buffy but later he did it because he understood that the likes of Angel and Spike are good people. When it was revealed that Angel was Twilight, Xander didn't say "I told you so", he actually asked, "Why would Angel become evil?" Xander have really changed since high school. He's not the same petty boy who hates Angel because he got Buffy.

 

[Lilah]

OMG I am not reading any of the comics and I now know why, they are ruining so many of the characters we loved in the shows. What a load of old ...

 

[Maggie]

I'm happy to forgive Angel if he follows a road like the one Andrew maps out... i.e. actually takes an accounting to try to figure out why his years of 'redemption' have killed so many people. Twilight got to him precisely because Angel hasn't tried to figure it out, and thus was totally ripe for the seduction.

What I'm not ready to do is forgive Buffy. She dressed Angel up in 'hero' clothes and has never held him accountable for anything. He battered her and Satsu, tormented her for a year to try to drive her to become a god like him, and she rushed into his open arms without a murmur of protest about any of that. What sort of self-respect does she have if the love of her life can go behind her back like that for a year, do all sorts of damage in the name of 'good' without consulting her? He didn't even have to tell her that the reason he de-protagonized her was because Whistler told him to do it.

Buffy may well be stuck in love with the guy forever. But it really lowers her in my esteem. She's completely blind about him. And this season she rewarded him for cutting her out of the crucial decisions about how to cope with the emergency because he had more faith in Whistler's words than in Buffy's ability to work around prophecies. She's supposed to be a feminist icon, but instead she's a 'stand by your man' kind of gal, no matter what evil he does or how much he fails to respect her as a leader and a hero. (Cause choosing to have faith in Whistler rather than believe that Buffy can find a better way? That's not respecting the woman. That's not having been impacted by the resourcefulness that is her defining characteristic).

I hope Buffy can come back from things. But what makes Kean happy would make me miserable. A Buffy who keeps refusing to see who and what Angel is and just makes more excuses for him is not a Buffy I can root for. If the big story going forward is that she loves Angel but can't be with him because of this, I lose a lot of respect for Joss. I need her to notice that there's a big problem with Angel and it's not just because he keeps having bad things happen to him. It's because he's got a mountain of problems of his own, one of which is his tendency to completely cut her out from the key decisions he makes regarding the two of them. (Leaving SD, erasing their day, deciding to be Twilight).

 

[thunderhawk86]

I can forgive Angel as long as he consults his team before doing anything major. Although a large part of the reason that I can forgive him is that in my opinion he didn't start this whole mess. Willow is the one responsible for leading everyone down this path. She resurrected Buffy the second time it allowed the First to try to eliminate the slayers. To eliminate the first's threat Willow activated the potential slayers. Which then caused the government and demons to fight against the slayers. And this is why Angel turned into Twilight.

 

[Sommers Summers]

I disagree completely.

Xander had long stopped hating Angel. I don't think he likes him, but I think he came to accept him as part of the good guys long ago -in S3 he did it for Buffy but later he did it because he understood that the likes of Angel and Spike are good people. When it was revealed that Angel was Twilight, Xander didn't say "I told you so", he actually asked, "Why would Angel become evil?" Xander have really changed since high school. He's not the same petty boy who hates Angel because he got Buffy.

You sure about that? He probably still hates Angel, but grudgingly works with him to achieve the goal.
If you look at Season 8, C39, the way he dismisses Angel, still looks like hate to me. Remember, he more or less still hates vampires (at least for most of the series), just works with them on a pragmatic basis.

What I'm not ready to do is forgive Buffy. She dressed Angel up in 'hero' clothes and has never held him accountable for anything. He battered her and Satsu, tormented her for a year to try to drive her to become a god like him, and she rushed into his open arms without a murmur of protest about any of that. What sort of self-respect does she have if the love of her life can go behind her back like that for a year, do all sorts of damage in the name of 'good' without consulting her? He didn't even have to tell her that the reason he de-protagonized her was because Whistler told him to do it.

Buffy may well be stuck in love with the guy forever. But it really lowers her in my esteem. She's completely blind about him. And this season she rewarded him for cutting her out of the crucial decisions about how to cope with the emergency because he had more faith in Whistler's words than in Buffy's ability to work around prophecies. She's supposed to be a feminist icon, but instead she's a 'stand by your man' kind of gal, no matter what evil he does or how much he fails to respect her as a leader and a hero. (Cause choosing to have faith in Whistler rather than believe that Buffy can find a better way? That's not respecting the woman. That's not having been impacted by the resourcefulness that is her defining characteristic).

I hope Buffy can come back from things. But what makes Kean happy would make me miserable. A Buffy who keeps refusing to see who and what Angel is and just makes more excuses for him is not a Buffy I can root for. If the big story going forward is that she loves Angel but can't be with him because of this, I lose a lot of respect for Joss. I need her to notice that there's a big problem with Angel and it's not just because he keeps having bad things happen to him. It's because he's got a mountain of problems of his own, one of which is his tendency to completely cut her out from the key decisions he makes regarding the two of them. (Leaving SD, erasing their day, deciding to be Twilight).

Other than the old cliche that love is blind...

I would think that Buffy is trying to find an escape route, via trying to pursue the one she was supposed to kill. It doesn't work (see
Anya). So, yes, Buffy needs to get out of that funk.

Last word: Angel, I don't know if we can forgive him. Buffy, yes, but on that one condition that she gets out of it.

 

[white avenger]

How is Angel's regret and remorse any different from the same feelings that Faith had back in the Season 4 Buffy/Angel crossover? As sorry as Faith felt about what she had done, she still, and quite willingly, I might add, of her own free will, WENT TO PRISON. Granted, she didn't spend the full sentence, but she still turned herself in to the proper legal authorities and accepted her punishment Despite the fact that Angel supported and no doubt forgave her and defended her as much as he was capable of doing, Faith was punished by the state for crimes committed and confessed to.

Angel can feel sorry about what he has done. He can brood, cry, wail, and curse his fate for being lured into committing all of those crimes against human society, but he has no more right believing that anything that he does will somehow relieve him of accepting his legal punishment than any other criminal would. Angel did the crime, now he has to do the time. I can see no way that he could possibly avoid that, other than Joss just arbitrarily writing those crimes out of the story line (and I have no idea how he's going to do that without losing a large portion of his fan base)

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

I can forgive Angel as long as he consults his team before doing anything major. Although a large part of the reason that I can forgive him is that in my opinion he didn't start this whole mess. Willow is the one responsible for leading everyone down this path. She resurrected Buffy the second time it allowed the First to try to eliminate the slayers. To eliminate the first's threat Willow activated the potential slayers. Which then caused the government and demons to fight against the slayers. And this is why Angel turned into Twilight.

So Willow should have known that the First would seize its chance to kill off the Slayer line, that activating the Potentials would cause the humans to turn against them (I don't care what the characters say, the government is completely wrong about everything), that Angel would go along with creating the Twilight-verse AND that the Twilight-verse even existed and what the consequences of its birth would be.

Right. Willow knew all that when she resurrected Buffy.

Come on, people! There are only three parties to blame here:

1. Buffy: Even though I love her, robbing banks was a terrible idea. How could that not bite her in the butt later? Also, she obviously shouldn't have had space-sex with Angel, but she was clearly not in her right mind when that happened. He caught her in a weak emotional state and took advantage of that. She can't possibly be strong all the time, and after everything that happened she cracked.

2. The humans: They think vampires - soulless blood-sucking monsters - are sympathetic. No further comment is needed.

3. Angel: Once again, he chose to follow the path laid for him by the higher power rather than his own judgment. He chose this. The birth of Twilight is Angel's fault. There's no getting around it, and it's not even out of character when so many people seem to think it is.

 

[Abby27]

To me, this was an easy choice.

Absolutely not.

I gotta be honest, from the get-go I've always sided with Xander about Angel. I mean, Angel is a cool character, but the amount of damage that Angel causes in her life is just not something you "forgive." And even if you could forgive Angel the first time around about Jenny and all the others, how could Buffy ever be with Angel knowing he killed Giles, her watcher, practically her father.

Honestly, if they make it so Buffy and Angel end up together at this point, I'll be pretty disappointed with how the series is turning out.

 

[Sommers Summers]

I can forgive Angel as long as he consults his team before doing anything major.

And given his nature, promptly overrides his team. Or veto their plan.
Same thing, eventually.

Although a large part of the reason that I can forgive him is that in my opinion he didn't start this whole mess. Willow is the one responsible for leading everyone down this path.

Wh-whoa. Wait here. You're blaming one of the more faultless ones here?
It might be worth pointing out that before that, Buffy and Angel got together, and bonked, creating this mess. Directly or not.

She resurrected Buffy the second time it allowed the First to try to eliminate the slayers.

There was no alternative...

To eliminate the first's threat Willow activated the potential slayers. Which then caused the government and demons to fight against the slayers. And this is why Angel turned into Twilight.

Wait, but activating the potentials was part of Buffy's plan, was it not?
I'm starting to forget things here, just came out of a long meeting. 😉

To me, this was an easy choice.

Absolutely not.

I gotta be honest, from the get-go I've always sided with Xander about Angel. I mean, Angel is a cool character, but the amount of damage that Angel causes in her life is just not something you "forgive." And even if you could forgive Angel the first time around about Jenny and all the others, how could Buffy ever be with Angel knowing he killed Giles, her watcher, practically her father.

Honestly, if they make it so Buffy and Angel end up together at this point, I'll be pretty disappointed with how the series is turning out.

To some extent, yes, that's true. But I believe Joss wants to torture Angel into forgiveness.

 

[goodbyetonight]

Angel is one of my favorite characters and I never liked Giles, so I have nothing to forgive him for.

 

[goodbyetonight]

WakingNightmare agrees: He meant a great deal to Buffy. Doe that count for anything?

I was saying it in terms of how I personally feel in this case, not the characters. Obviously Buffy herself won't be thrilled with him, which is completely understandable, and something would be wrong if she wasn't pissed at him. That's part of why I'm not happy with Season 8, it completely ruined so many relationships between the characters it's like they're not even the same people as they were on the show anymore. :/

 

[VisionGirl]

Honestly, if they make it so Buffy and Angel end up together at this point, I'll be pretty disappointed with how the series is turning out.

I don't think that Joss has any intentions to resolve Bangel vs Spuffy. That triangle will continue, with Buffy at least having relationships with other people as well. Who knows? Probably none of them will end up together. Or, maybe Spangel? 😀 One can dream, right?

 

[sosa lola]

You sure about that? He probably still hates Angel, but grudgingly works with him to achieve the goal.
If you look at Season 8, C39, the way he dismisses Angel, still looks like hate to me. Remember, he more or less still hates vampires (at least for most of the series), just works with them on a pragmatic basis.

So perfectly sure. I'm not saying he's Angel's bestest friend, all I'm saying is that the hate he used to have for him is gone now. His thing with vampires stopped at Selfless when he was put in Buffy's shoes. Xander became more supportive about Spike and stopped judging him. Same goes for Angel.

Xander said nothing bad about Angel throughout S8. In fact, it was Willow who was mighty pissed with him. Xander actually said, "I wanna know why Angel dressed like a fetish bad guy and became a killer." That shows that Xander understands and accepts that Angel is a good guy, that's why he's surprised that Angel would kill people like that.

Xander brushing Angel off was because Angel killed Giles. Isn't that a good reason to be upset with him? Why must everybody stick Xander to the kid he was in S1 and S2? Xander has changed so much since high school. He's not the same guy anymore. Actually, the old Xander would have staked Angel that second, not just dismissed him.

About Xander hating vampires, I don't see it. He just dislikes Angel and Spike for obvious reasons that don't exist anymore. If Xander really hates vampires, wouldn't he be disgusted with vampire-Willow? Wouldn't he be disgusted of the idea that he's a vampire in another reality instead of being excited about it?

 

[Sommers Summers]

I don't think that Joss has any intentions to resolve Bangel vs Spuffy. That triangle will continue, with Buffy at least having relationships with other people as well. Who knows? Probably none of them will end up together. Or, maybe Spangel? 😀 One can dream, right?

Come to think about it, Spangel sounds like a great idea. Allows us to effectively do away with the vampire problems...

 

[InsaneMystic]

She resurrected Buffy the second time it allowed the First to try to eliminate the slayers.

There was no alternative...

Not trying to join in with the Willow-bashing (she still is one of my fave chars in the verse)... but how about the alternative of just not resurrecting Buffy? The rezzing in "Bargaining", still to this day, seems to me like the stupidest idea Willow ever got into her head (it even tops the infamous Forget spell, which in itself was more than idiotic and unethical), and I will never understand the glaring plot hole of Tara going along with that plan.

 

[Kean]

Not trying to join in with the Willow-bashing (she still is one of my fave chars in the verse)... but how about the alternative of just not resurrecting Buffy? The rezzing in "Bargaining", still to this day, seems to me like the stupidest idea Willow ever got into her head (it even tops the infamous Forget spell, which in itself was more than idiotic and unethical), and I will never understand the glaring plot hole of Tara going along with that plan.

I think this is the first time this has ever happened, but I completely agree with everything you have said. This has been my argument with Willow for a very long time. And the Tara plot hole is massive! Especially when only a few months previous she was openly and adamantly against resurrection, under any circumstance. The 180 was ridiculous.

 

[Icarium]

I don't really see the problem. If my friend is killed and I have the means to resurrect them I would totally do it. Especially if I have reasons to believe they might be in hell.

 

[Kean]

I don't really see the problem. If my friend is killed and I have the means to resurrect them I would totally do it. Especially if I have reasons to believe they might be in hell.

She had no reason to believe it though. She had a very shoddy assumption and no actual facts. She gave no thought or research to where Buffy actually was. Her Angel excuse doesn't fly because Angel never died. He was sucked into Hell. The fact that they left Buffy still in her coffin is testament to how little they thought about the resurrection.

 

[Icarium]

Well, even if there was a small chance of Buffy being in hell, I think this is a good enough reason of trying to save her. She was going to die eventually anyway, so unless heaven or rebirth is one time chance only - why not? Willow risked her life for Buffy, for me that's one of her most heroic moments, never mind that it backfired spectacularly.