Forgiveness? (SPOILERS! run away if you don't want to know!)

[SupportOGal]

I don't think I can forgive Angel, and if Buffy forgives him, I don't think I can forgive her.

 

[Icarium]

I haven't even forgiven for Jenny yet, so what do you think?

 

[The Unspoken]

He killed Giles, but wasn't he willing to let EVERYONE die until Buffy convinced him to head out of that alternate universe and back to the real world to help them out? At this point he wasn't 'possessed' like he was when he killed Giles, if I'm not mistaken. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[white avenger]

There should almost certainly be a subplot throughout Season 9 that shows Angel working to achieve redemption and forgiveness, but I think that it is going to be a long, LONG process that will make Spike's trials to win his soul look like nothing more than a college hazing. Furthermore, I think that it should be his task alone, not something that he can be assisted in. He didn't have any trouble getting duped into this mess, and he shouldn't have any help getting out of it.

However, the fact just occurred to me that Season 9 is supposed to take place, not directly after the end of Season 8, but later, most likely several years, at least, later. That means that Issue # 1 might very well be the big ceremony thrown by the gang, welcoming Angel back into the fold, leaving the readers to only imagine what happened in the interim, just like we had to imagine what happened between Seasons 7 and 8.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

They should go for the "Ghost and Mrs. Muir" ending... elderly Buffy looks up from her deathbed as the shadow of a male figure passes over her. She smiles and says "It's you..."

(Sorry, something in my eye...)

 

[Tranquillity]

I voted undecided because I'd like to believe that the act of forgiveness has no limits... But like AndrewCrossett said earlier, I really need to see Angel change the way he operates and learn some lessons from this experience first. He killed Giles - there has to be some serious fallout/consequences from this. It has to change the way Buffy and the others relate to him, even if he eventually does gain their forgiveness.

 

[VisionGirl]

Im with Kean and Taake. Why wouldnt the others forgive him? Hes not the only friend Angel has killed and theyve forgiven him before. And hes not the only one in the group who has killed in his own way of "doing right". Hating Angel wont bring Giles back.
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I'm with you & Kean & Taake, too, but let's be honest that the actions of s8 are the most catastrophic we've seen in the Buffyverse. I actually voted "undecided" because I want to forgive him, he's one of my favorite characters, but I agree with a lot of others that it's going to be a long, long road. Although I disagree with WA that it has to be completely alone. Angel doesn't tend to do well alone.

Also, for me his actions in s9 don't have any bearing on whether or not I like ATS (I do, BTW).

Angel's true happiness curse is gone now,

Well, that's an assumption. It's possible, but it's not confirmed yet. And if the happiness clause is gone because of the loss of magic, then why wouldn't the curse itself be gone, and Angel loses his soul?

As we saw in "Sanctuary" and "Orpheus," Angel and Faith tend to have a very healthy effect on each other when one of them is at rock bottom, so I'd like to see them spend season 9 in each other's company. (Though I have no desire to see them as a romantic couple.) At this point, Faith is the only one of the Scoobies (including Buffy) that I can imagine looking at Angel with anything other than homicidal thoughts.

I completely agree with you on this, and do hope to see Faith/Angel interaction in s9.

However, the fact just occurred to me that Season 9 is supposed to take place, not directly after the end of Season 8, but later, most likely several years, at least, later. That means that Issue # 1 might very well be the big ceremony thrown by the gang, welcoming Angel back into the fold, leaving the readers to only imagine what happened in the interim, just like we had to imagine what happened between Seasons 7 and 8.

O.M.G. Why do you keep saying stuff like this?! I soooo hope that does NOT happen!!!!

 

[white avenger]

Although I disagree with WA that it has to be completely alone. Angel doesn't tend to do well alone.

I didn't necessarily mean that Angel has to BE alone as I did that whatever redemption or restitution that he makes has to be his responsibility totally. He got himself into this mess all by himself, and I see no reason why Connor, Gunn, Gwen, Nina, or any other of his new gang, assuming that they remain intact after the Dark Horse takeover, should, or could, do any of that for him. They can come along to cheer him on, or even to watch his back when the going gets violent, but, like Hercules, these 12 Labors are his, and his alone to accomplish.

---------- Post added at 11:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

Comments on this post
VisionGirl agrees: Alright, I might go for that, but he simply *needs* his friends. Without them he winds up eating rats in alleys with bad hair.

How could an alley have bad hair?

 

[prophecygrrl]

I don't think Buffy and the gang will ever fully forgive him. Ever. This is Giles. Not a random classmate that ended up on the wrong side of town, not Kendra (technically Drusilla's kill but still, Angelus was obviously involved in that whole plot), and not Jenny Calendar. Much as I love Jenny, she wasn't nearly as important to the Scoobies as Giles is. Was. 🙁

As for me personally...I'm undecided. I think Angel was wildly OOC in Season Eight. Maybe I'm still in denial, but I can't take his betrayal that seriously. Or at least not as seriously as other fans are. It isn't him. And I don't mean "Oh, he was just possessed by Twilight, 'sall good", I mean this is not the Angel I know. This is not the Angel who basically gave the finger to the Senior Partners, not the Angel who put free will and choice over destiny and power by the show's end. I don't hold him to Twilight's actions because I can't believe that he would agree to Twilight's mission in the first place.

Where's Cordelia when you need her, honestly?? 🙁

 

[VisionGirl]

Oh lord, WA, I need to go to bed- & it sounds like you do too! 😉

 

[sosa lola]

Yes. Because I know Angel will regret everything he'd done under possession. His body killed Giles, not Angel. Maybe he allowed Twilight to take over his body the first time, but he didn't the second time. He was trying to fight the creation he and Buffy made. And lost.

Angel is gonna go through a very hard time. And I hope one of the Scoobies can help him get back on his feet. I'm guessing it's gonna be either Faith or Spike, and I'd love if it's Faith. Angel had helped Faith before when no one was there for her, now she can return the favor.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I still haven't read the comic, and I don't know all the details, only some facts.. but knowing that, I'm more sad then mad.

 

[sosa lola]

I still haven't read the comic, and I don't know all the details, only some facts.. but knowing that, I'm more sad then mad.

Reading it will give you a clearer picture of what's happening. Personally, I can't judge a story before seeing/reading it myself. It reminds me of my cousin who stopped watching BtVS after S3, and read about the next seasons from the net, she came to me screaming, "Buffy has a SISTER? Since when? Willow is GAY? What about Oz and Xander? Buffy dies and comes back? Is she Jesus now? And Spike LOVES Buffy? What about Drusilla? Is he copying Angel now? Thank God I stopped watching. They turned the show into garbage."

 

[white avenger]

His body killed Giles, not Angel.

I'm guessing it's gonna be either Faith or Spike, and I'd love if it's Faith.

And the gun shot Tara. Warren was just holding the evil thing at the time. Angel willingly allowed Twilight to control his body, resulting in the death of THOUSANDS of Slayers, plus however military personnel might have gotten killed at the same time. Maybe Angel can claim "the DEVIL made me do it!!!" for what happened to Giles, but Giles is only one of the thousands of lives lost in this war, and Angel, whether or not he was under the influence of Twilight or not, was a major factor in all of that death.

And since Faith referred to Angel as "The man bitch formerly known as Angel" in Issue #36, I'm guessing that she isn't on Angel's bandwagon anymore.

Spike? That would be a real chuckle-fest.

I think more likely, this is going to result in a replay of Season 7, with Angel in Spike's old role. Nobody will trust him, everybody will consider him evil and better off dust. The question remains of whether Buffy will take his part the way that she previously took Spikes, or has he finally used up all of his free rides with her as well. My guess is, she will really struggle with a decision before finally deciding that, no matter how much she might love him, she will never again be able to trust Angel, and will realize that the two of them together are nothing short of tragedy waiting to happen. This time, unlike in the finale of Season 3, Buffy will be the one leaving, and Angel will be the one who is left standing looking all bereft and forlorn.

Not to worry, though, because in the interim between the end of Season 8 and the beginning of Season 9, The Miracle will happen, and Angel will be all forgiven, redeemed, and welcomed back into the fold once more. Just like always.

 

[VisionGirl]

WA, I agree with Angel's culpability in Twilight, but I do want to point out that he was indeed Twilight-possessed when he killed Giles. He tried to fight Twilight prior to that, and was taken over. And again, Angel did it all to save the world and/or Buffy, however deluded that reasoning was (Moscow Watcher explains it sooo much better than I).

 

[white avenger]

WA, I agree with Angel's culpability in Twilight, but I do want to point out that he was indeed Twilight-possessed when he killed Giles. He tried to fight Twilight prior to that, and was taken over. And again, Angel did it all to save the world and/or Buffy, however deluded that reasoning was (Moscow Watcher explains it sooo much better than I).

Whether or not Angel was possessed by Twilight when he killed Giles, he apparently WASN'T possessed when he killed the 2000 Slayers, and that crime alone is enough to hang him in my book. And he was taken over only AFTER he voluntarily allied himself with Twilight, knowing full well that he would be raising an army to attack and conquer the Slayer army, killing as many girls as possible in the process. That makes him an accessory to the crimes, at the very least. He wasn't taken over while in a weakened, disoriented state, the way that the First Evil did Spike, and he didn't go insane with rage and grief the way that Willow did when Tara was murdered. He might have excused his actions as being "for the greater good," but the fact remains that Angel took innocent human lives, and quite a few of them, on nothing more than the assurance of a talking dog. Ironic, isn't it, that Angel himself mentions the similarity in this and the Son Of Sam, since both wound up killing innocent victims because a dog told them that it was the right thing to do.

 

[Hero]

I will burn Whedon's house to the ground if the left over cast forgives Angel.

Forreal forreal, this whole "he cant help it" and "redemption!" thing got old by season 5 of Buffy. Time to grow some balls, Scoobie Gang, and call it as it is.

Obviously, my answer is no. No forgiveness from Angel for me.

 

[Tome]

I'm pretty sure I will, since he was under a spell. But, I wanna find out what the hell happened to him first. Like... He was pretty OOC for most of the season. Where's the Angel we saw in his own show??

 

[Hero]

Yea, but still...it gets old. Is Buffy really going to be able to bone the man who killed her teacher, killed her father figure, and is responsible for killing hundreds of girls? Uuughhh...Yea, what a turn on. lol

 

[methos]

if Angel can actually come up with an excuse for slaughtering thousands of Slayers and Buffy actually forgives him for everything... well, the man should be made into President, if he can put a spin on that and make everyone forgive him, then he's almost certainly got the world domination shtick in the bag

M