Forgiveness? (SPOILERS! run away if you don't want to know!)

[racheltng]

I think Angel will feel guilty enough on his own without everyone else piling the blame on him. Guilt is his thing.

 

[white avenger]

if Angel can actually come up with an excuse for slaughtering thousands of Slayers and Buffy actually forgives him for everything... well, the man should be made into President, if he can put a spin on that and make everyone forgive him, then he's almost certainly got the world domination shtick in the bag

M

But, see, that's the irony of this whole discussion. HE WON'T HAVE TO COME UP WITH ANY KIND OF EXCUSE. Buffy will do it for him, and will defend and protect him from all of her friends, just like she did with Spike in Season 7, right down to the "If you try anything, he will kill you. And the thing is, I'll let him."

Buffy has a blind spot where Angel is concerned, and she always has had. Some people might call that undying love and devotion, but I call it irresponsibility and the remnants of that famous Slayer Death Wish that Spike warned her about. This isn't about love, or devotion. No intuitive soul mate insight into the tortured heart of a champion. It's just plain obsession. In Buffy's eyes, Angel can do no unforgivable wrong. End of discussion, bottom line, no arguments, Elvis has left the building. And with Giles now out of the way, his most verbal opponent on the Scoobie Team is gone. Sure, Xander will voice his objections, but his word hasn't really carried any real weight in years. As he himself has said, he's just the one who fixes windows and sees things. Unfortunately, like Cassandra in ancient Troy, just because he can see the disaster coming doesn't mean anyone (or, in this case, Buffy) will bother to listen, believe, and act on the knowledge.

But, hopefully, all of this discussion will have been unnecessary after all. Maybe Buffy will finally take her Angel colored glasses off and do what really has to be done, which is to realize that, no matter how how much she might love Angel, they simply CAN NOT BE TOGETHER without disastrous things occurring.

 

[Kean]

if Angel can actually come up with an excuse for slaughtering thousands of Slayers and Buffy actually forgives him for everything... well, the man should be made into President, if he can put a spin on that and make everyone forgive him, then he's almost certainly got the world domination shtick in the bag

M

An excuse is probably the last thing Angel will offer. It is much more fitting with his character for him to accept total blame and responsibility for his actions. If he is forgiven by anyone it will be because they chose to offer that forgiveness, not because he has campaigned for it.

But, see, that's the irony of this whole discussion. HE WON'T HAVE TO COME UP WITH ANY KIND OF EXCUSE. Buffy will do it for him, and will defend and protect him from all of her friends, just like she did with Spike in Season 7, right down to the "If you try anything, he will kill you. And the thing is, I'll let him."

And she will have genuine reasons to defend him. I know most people are not interested in those reasons but they are real. As well as that, I think Buffy, much like season 2, may feel partly responsible for Angel's actions. She sent him away, I'm gonna assume she will believe he wouldn't have been overtaken by Twilight if they had been together. Or, at the very least there would have been a better chance of Twilight not succeeding.

The reason Buffy will support Angel, as much as she can anyway, is because she is complicit in this tragedy and it is not within her nature to shuck the blame.

Buffy has a blind spot where Angel is concerned, and she always has had. Some people might call that undying love and devotion, but I call it irresponsibility and the remnants of that famous Slayer Death Wish that Spike warned her about. This isn't about love, or devotion. No intuitive soul mate insight into the tortured heart of a champion. It's just plain obsession. In Buffy's eyes, Angel can do no unforgivable wrong. End of discussion,

If all Buffy felt for Angel was obsession it would have burned out by now. This is, and always has been, love. There probably couldn't be any more canonical evidence of her loving him, least of all from S8. This is far beyond paltry obsession, and you know it.

Angel can most certainly do wrong, even in Buffy's eyes. And if she thought he killed Giles because it was his choice she would have staked him in a second. As she would if she thought Angel wouldn't regret his actions with every fibre of his being.

Buffy, as a person, has a huge capacity to forgive. If she believes in the good in you she has shown herself capable of forgiving almost anything. And there isn't a single character that hasn't been on the end of that forgiveness at least once.

Buffy will forgive Angel the same way she would if it had been Willow, Xander, Spike or Dawn's hands that broke Giles' neck.

 

[zobothehobo]

Buffy will forgive Angel the same way she would if it had been Willow, Xander, Spike or Dawn's hands that broke Giles' neck.

I highly doubt she'd forgive any of those people except Dawn. They can do anything else but kill Giles. That's Giles. As much as I hate him, Buffy loved him. He was a father figure to her... Her adult male role model. The closet thing she had to a father past the age of 15. It was he who helped her and carried her through her transition from childhood to adulthood. It was he who was there to help after her mother died and after she got back from heaven. It was he who watched out for her, protected her, and loved her all those years. I can see Buffy telling Willow, Xander, or Spike "get away from me and don't ever come back or so help me god I will kill you" if any of them killed Giles.

 

[methos]

I agree completely with Zobo here...

there's no way Buffy would forgive anyone that hurt Giles, no way in hell... adding to that the deaths of thousands of Slayers that were directly her responsibility that Angel killed...

Sorry, but I don't see any way she would forgive that... it's too much, far too much...

the next issue should start with Angel being slowly hovered up, that's it... as far as i'm concerned now, he doesn't even rank high enough to get a dusting sequence like a fledgeling vamp at the beginning of an episode

M

 

[Kean]

I highly doubt she'd forgive any of those people except Dawn. They can do anything else but kill Giles. That's Giles. As much as I hate him, Buffy loved him. He was a father figure to her... Her adult male role model. The closet thing she had to a father past the age of 15. It was he who helped her and carried her through her transition from childhood to adulthood. It was he who was there to help after her mother died and after she got back from heaven. It was he who watched out for her, protected her, and loved her all those years. I can see Buffy telling Willow, Xander, or Spike "get away from me and don't ever come back or so help me god I will kill you" if any of them killed Giles.

I guess we will disagree on that front because I honestly cannot imagine Buffy saying that to a remorseful Willow, Xander or Spike. Even more so when so many of her own choices led to that moment when Giles died.

Maybe I'm wrong but I just can't see it.

 

[sosa lola]

Angel willingly allowed Twilight to control his body, resulting in the death of THOUSANDS of Slayers, plus however military personnel might have gotten killed at the same time.

He was an idiot when he signed to be possessed by Twilight. Angel should stop following and believing prophecies. He had no idea that things would go badly, and while that was naive of him, it is completely in character. A lot of voices from different people, including Whistler, pushed Angel to do it. He had no idea how things were going to turn out, he chose Twilight thinking that it was the right choice.

This is not me excusing Angel as much as understanding where he came from.

And since Faith referred to Angel as "The man bitch formerly known as Angel" in Issue #36, I'm guessing that she isn't on Angel's bandwagon anymore.

She said that in a moment of anger. Later when she calms down, I can see her trying to help Angel like he helped her.

Spike? That would be a real chuckle-fest.

Why would it be? Spike proved to be the one understanding Angel more than anyone by now. He actually realized he was Twilight right away when Buffy didn't. I can see him trying to get Angel back to his feet.

 

[The Unspoken]

The reason Buffy will support Angel, as much as she can anyway, is because she is complicit in this tragedy and it is not within her nature to shuck the blame.

Buffy complicit? Are you talking about the universe-shattering sex she had with Angel? Unlike him, Buffy didn't know of the Twilight prophecy then, not to mention whatever influence 'the glow' had on her.

 

[methos]

And just for devils advocate here... even if Buffy does forgive him, Xander most certainly wont...

Giles was the only worthwhile father figure in Xander's life, the man who stood by him through everything... we know Xander's parents were drunks at best, abusive at worst, and Giles was the only older man that Xander looked up to in high school and beyond...

taking that into account, and the fact that he's always hated Angel anyway, shouldn't really be much of a stretch to see Xander dusting Angel very quickly... hell, the rest of the scoobies will probably cheer him on and throw a party for the occasion as Xander kept his promise.. he said way back in season 1 (or 2?) that he was going to be there when Angel died... it's about time he made good on that i think

M

 

[zobothehobo]

And just for devils advocate here... even if Buffy does forgive him, Xander most certainly wont...

Giles was the only worthwhile father figure in Xander's life, the man who stood by him through everything... we know Xander's parents were drunks at best, abusive at worst, and Giles was the only older man that Xander looked up to in high school and beyond...

taking that into account, and the fact that he's always hated Angel anyway, shouldn't really be much of a stretch to see Xander dusting Angel very quickly... hell, the rest of the scoobies will probably cheer him on and throw a party for the occasion as Xander kept his promise.. he said way back in season 1 (or 2?) that he was going to be there when Angel died... it's about time he made good on that i think

M

I don't think Xander will forgive him but not because Giles was a father figure to him. I honestly don't see Xander looking at Giles as a father figure much. He was a role model maybe sometimes but no where near a father figure. He won't forgive Angel because he's never really forgiven Angel for anything. Honestly, I don't see Xander needing another reason to hate Angel because he already does... this just adds to it and gives him the perfect excuse. Both Willow and Buffy looked up to Giles like a father figure and they are two of the most important people in his life. He's not going to let that one go. He's going to use it to his advantage...

 

[Kana]

OMG, I'm becoming increasing worried about Angel now. I haven't read said issue yet but WTF?!!! Angel was always a flawed hero, that's why I liked him. The mistakes he made in the past were always understandable.

Angel being a 'puppet' to the PTBs didn't undermine his intentions. Angel didn't blindly follow orders, he used the visions for the purpose of his mission (lest we forget, Spike thought he was doing the same).

The W&H was never a real moral decision but although he is responsible for that, decision, he did what he did out of love for Connor. So while it was ill-advised, he wasn't really a jerk for doing it.

But now???? What the hell is going on? I'm not too familiar with the comics but how much was Angel in control of his actions? This is important for me because as people are saying, it would be OOC. How much he is being manipulated is crucial because this what his culpability hinges on. Is it like Jasmine and Cordy because I don't hold Cordy at all responsible for Jasmine's actions. If there is no other explanation than Angel acting on warped form of Utilitarianism, then I'm done with the verse, because they would have destroyed my favourite character.

 

[zobothehobo]

OMG, I'm becoming increasing worried about Angel now. I haven't read said issue yet but WTF?!!! Angel was always a flawed hero, that's why I liked him. The mistakes he made in the past were always understandable.

Angel being a 'puppet' to the PTBs didn't undermine his intentions. Angel didn't blindly follow orders, he used the visions for the purpose of his mission (lest we forget, Spike thought he was doing the same).

The W&H was never a real moral decision but although he is responsible for that, decision, he did what he did out of love for Connor. So while it was ill-advised, he wasn't really a jerk for doing it.

But now???? What the hell is going on? I'm not too familiar with the comics but how much was Angel in control of his actions? This is important for me because as people are saying, it would be OOC. How much he is being manipulated is crucial because this what his culpability hinges on. Is it like Jasmine and Cordy because I don't hold Cordy at all responsible for Jasmine's actions. If there is no other explanation than Angel acting on warped form of Utilitarianism, then I'm done with the verse, because they would have destroyed my favourite character.

For the majority of the season, he's Angel, completely in control of his own actions, who has been talked into killing thousands of innocent people and wearing a mask going by the name of Twilight. It's only the last few issues where the "how much is Angel in control" question comes into play. As far as I can tell, his body has been fully possessed by Twilight. But Angel's more than responsible for his possession. Maybe he himself didn't directly do the things Twilight in his body did but it's not like Jasmine and Cordy. Cordy had absolutely no way of knowing becoming a higher being was going to have negative consequences. Spike and Giles were able to find out about the Twilight prophecy and the consequences. Angel could have too... Angel should have too. Before Twilight possesses him, he calls Angel "father" and says "you can't turn your back on what you've created, father." Angel signed on to this. Twilight's possession of Angel's body was to make him "finish what he started." (again, Twilight's words)

 

[Kean]

OMG, I'm becoming increasing worried about Angel now. I haven't read said issue yet but WTF?!!! Angel was always a flawed hero, that's why I liked him. The mistakes he made in the past were always understandable.

Angel being a 'puppet' to the PTBs didn't undermine his intentions. Angel didn't blindly follow orders, he used the visions for the purpose of his mission (lest we forget, Spike thought he was doing the same).

The W&H was never a real moral decision but although he is responsible for that, decision, he did what he did out of love for Connor. So while it was ill-advised, he wasn't really a jerk for doing it.

But now???? What the hell is going on? I'm not too familiar with the comics but how much was Angel in control of his actions? This is important for me because as people are saying, it would be OOC. How much he is being manipulated is crucial because this what his culpability hinges on. Is it like Jasmine and Cordy because I don't hold Cordy at all responsible for Jasmine's actions. If there is no other explanation than Angel acting on warped form of Utilitarianism, then I'm done with the verse, because they would have destroyed my favourite character.

From what we have been shown some higher power (PTB's?) showed up with a mission for Angel. It showed his world destroyed and said there was a way to undo it or make it better or whatever. It also said that (what would become Twilight) was his destiny. Angel initially rejects this but then his Super super powers develop and the higher power says he can't fight it.

The next thing we see is Angel being told by Whistler that he must push Buffy so she can gain her Twilight powers too. That it is part of a prophecy that makes Shanshu look like nothing. So Angel dons the suit and does some really horrific things all because of this info he has been given. He fights it along the way, specifically after fighting with Buffy, arguing to Whistler that this is wrong and that he and Buffy should be fighting this threat together. Whistler tells him that he has seen what happens if Buffy and Angel don't go Twilight and basically says the world ends. So Angel carries on with the act and Buffy eventually does achieve her Twilight powers.

Soon after this it is revealed that Angel is Twilight and Buffy tries to kill him. A lot. Eventually though this glow generates between them and Angel explains why he did what he did, that if he hadn't kept the demons etc at bay it could have been a lot worse. At this stage Angel tells Buffy that maybe this time that them being together is the right thing. Both of them seem to be caught up in each other (and I assume the naive hope that what they want could actually be what is needed) and they have sex. Lots and lots of sex. In space.

Apparently the energy they created through all the comshucking created another reality. And this is where Angel's knowledge of what's going on comes to a blinding halt. He tries to convince Buffy to stay in this new world with him where they can finally be happy. However, Buffy sees what is happening to the old world i.e. apocalypse yada yada yada, and says she has to go back. Angel tries to brush that off (not fun to read) but when she insists he gives up all of Twilight and the entire mission and goes with her.

So now they are fighting all the demons and such that have been released through the birth of the new reality. Buffy sends Angel off though, to help Slayers elsewhere and also because the Scoobies were extremely not OK with him being around. He does go and he does help and he acknowledges that Buffy was right when she said he needed to do this. However, the reality they created aka Twilight, has manifested into a green Gryphon (we think) and it says that it wants its soul. Apparently the ending of our world would have given Twilight our world's soul and thus made Twilight a real boy. Or something like that. Angel says no, that it's over. Twilight insists that he will give him what he wants and again Angel refuses. They fight and Twilight completely and utterly takes over Angel's body, to the point where it is ushering commands like "Stand up" and Angel stands up. Twilight remains in control of Angel right up until the moment that Buffy breaks the egg after Giles has been killed.

So, make of that what you will.

 

[white avenger]

A lot of people here seem to believe that Buffy, because she loves and trusts Angel, can forgive him for Giles' death, or simply discount any responsibility he might have had in it because he was, at that moment, under the control of Twilight. Okay, I'll allow that, though not agree completely. But Angel agreed to organize and lead an army against Buffy and her people on so lame an excuse as "If you don't lead them in a head on assault, they will attach from all sides at once." and Angel, not Twilight, led that army and killed those people, regardless of what his motives might have been, of his own free will, without being forced by Twilight, Whistler, or even the talking dog. If he had never gotten within a football field length of Giles, he would still be responsible for all of those deaths. Beyond that, there was, I believe, a plot to flood the children's toy market with a few million killer dolls. How can Buffy forgive all of that What can Angel possibly do to atone for that? Over the course of this one season, Angel has been responsible for the deaths of more people than all of the Big Bads in the previous 7 seasons combined. Would Buffy be in any way justified in forgiving Caleb simply because he received his power from and bonded with the First Evil? Caleb never killed anyone close to Buffy, and she split him from crotch to crown, even making a rather leme joke about doing so.

Angel has committed capital crimes against mankind in general and the Slayers in particular, crimes that would, for anyone other than himself, result in life imprisonment without hope of parole at best, or execution at worst, and he should be made to answer for those crimes. To my way of thinking, a mere "I'm sorry. I promise to brood extra hard because of it from now on." just doesn't seem to be sufficient punishment. Buffy has neither the right nor the authority to pardon those crimes. She can love him all that she wants to, but she most certainly can NOT pardon him of his crimes.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Whistler tells him that he has seen what happens if Buffy and Angel don't go Twilight and basically says the world ends.

So, from reading that could one conclude that if Angel had not killed Giles then Buffy would have never smashed the egg and saved the world?

 

[methos]

no, then Giles would have smashed the egg and saved the world lol

M

 

[Kean]

So, from reading that could one conclude that if Angel had not killed Giles then Buffy would have never smashed the egg and saved the world?

Honestly, we don't know what would have happened. Although, it was made clear that we were losing and when Giles moved into the cavern whilst Angel and Buffy where fighting it was to break the egg. So, yeah...I suppose you could say that. However, I don't think anyone would call this a victory. even if Giles hadn't been killed.

 

[cordangel]

NO! I don't care if he was possessed or whatever. He's so manipulated and OOC. He's never good whenever he comes back to BtVS.

Yeah, but it isn't his fault. Reserve your dislike and reproaches for the writers.
JOSS for me is unforgiveable, being his CO-creator (I think Greenwalt had a major understanding of Angel) and Scott Allie knowing nothing (for his own admission) of AtS.
So, why condemn the character and not who have written him so badly?

 

[white avenger]

Yeah, but it isn't his fault. Reserve your dislike and reproaches for the writers.
JOSS for me is unforgiveable, being his CO-creator (I think Greenwalt had a major understanding of Angel) and Scott Allie knowing nothing (for his own admission) of AtS.
So, why condemn the character and not who have written him so badly?

I agree absolutely! Let's get up a necktie party and go out a'huntin' the mangy varmint.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkUFv0xbdrw[/ame]

(Not that Joss is near the man Gary Cooper was, of course)

 

[cordangel]

I agree absolutely! Let's get up a necktie party and go out a'huntin' the mangy varmint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkUFv0xbdrw

(Not that Joss is near the man Gary Cooper was, of course)

ha ha...funny

I only suggested not to give them (the writers) our credit