Forgiveness? (SPOILERS! run away if you don't want to know!)

[Abby27]

I always thought the logic Willow used was decent enough. They were all overcome with grief with Buffy being gone, so I think mix that in with the notion Buffy could even possibly be in hell; I'm not surprised that they resurrected her. I mean, Glory was trying to open a portal to unleash Hell on Earth, and then Buffy got stuck in it, and then died. I don't think it's too far of a stretch to think it's possible her soul got sucked in. But it does seem then by that logic they would conclude that Buffy would come back to life in her body where ever it was: her coffin. That does prove they didn't really think it through as well as they should have.

 

[Kean]

Well, even if there was a small chance of Buffy being in hell, I think this is a good enough reason of trying to save her. She was going to die eventually anyway, so unless heaven or rebirth is one time chance only - why not? Willow risked her life for Buffy, for me that's one of her most heroic moments, never mind that it backfired spectacularly.

I honestly think it is the single most selfish act in the history of the show. The fact that she had the audacity to sulk when Buffy didn't thank her for bringing her back casts a shadow over her motivations for me too. The last thing I view her as is heroic.

There's no way I could ever see this as anything other than gross negligence on Willow's part. Tara is especially disappointing because she knew this was wrong.

 

[Icarium]

I fail to see how it's selfish. It's debatable whether it's wrong but selfish? Sloppily written? You bet. But putting your life on the line for someone else is selfish now? Okay...Buffy must be the most selfish person in the history of the universe then.

 

[Kean]

I fail to see how it's selfish. It's debatable whether it's wrong but selfish? Sloppily written? You bet. But putting your life on the line for someone else is selfish now? Okay...Buffy must be the most selfish person in the history of the universe then.

It's not like Willow stood in front of a bullet for Buffy. Buffy was dead. There was no life to save here. There is absolutely zero comparison between what Buffy did as the slayer and what Willow did with the resurrection.

I believe it was selfish for many reasons :

-The lack of research or any evidence whatsoever that Buffy was in Hell. She didn't care where Buffy was. It didn't matter to Willow as long as he got to raise the dead.
-To cast a spell and not know so much about it is a disgrace. Especially something so dangerous and with such dire consequences. These are all things Willow knew.
-She didn't tell anyone about the resurrection that she thought would challenge her. To me that shows that she knew the spell was wrong.
-Her attitude and behaviour afterwards, "You're right. The Magicks I used are incredibly powerful. I'm incredibly powerful. And maybe it's not such a good idea for you to piss me off.". She didn't selflessly put her self on the line to save her friend. She got off on the power it gave her.

After all that there is the sheer horror of the year that followed the resurrection for Buffy.

I couldn't call Willow's actions in bringing Buffy back as anything but selfish.

 

[citiegal17]

It's not like Willow stood in front of a bullet for Buffy. Buffy was dead. There was no life to save here. There is absolutely zero comparison between what Buffy did as the slayer and what Willow did with the resurrection.

I believe it was selfish for many reasons :

-The lack of research or any evidence whatsoever that Buffy was in Hell. She didn't care where Buffy was. It didn't matter to Willow as long as he got to raise the dead.
-To cast a spell and not know so much about it is a disgrace. Especially something so dangerous and with such dire consequences. These are all things Willow knew.
-She didn't tell anyone about the resurrection that she thought would challenge her. To me that shows that she knew the spell was wrong.
-Her attitude and behaviour afterwards, "You're right. The Magicks I used are incredibly powerful. I'm incredibly powerful. And maybe it's not such a good idea for you to piss me off.". She didn't selflessly put her self on the line to save her friend. She got off on the power it gave her.

After all that there is the sheer horror of the year that followed the resurrection for Buffy.

I couldn't call Willow's actions in bringing Buffy back as anything but selfish.

Willow did put herself on the line when she brought Buffy back. She literally had a snake come out of her body, and she got banged up because of it, she had cuts all over her body. Its not like she could have magically waved her arms and Buffy came back, it was a lot more dangerous than that. She was wrong, but her heart was in the right place. Willow brought Buffy back because she couldn't stand the thought of Buffy suffering for saving them, just because she didn't know that Buffy wasn't suffering doesn't mean that it wasn't coming from the right place. Willow defending herself against Giles doens't make her a bad person, she even aplogized to Giles after she had been sassy with him, she gave up magic that year, and tried until Tara's death sent her over the edge. The gang made many mistakes with the reserection but they weren't being just selfish when they brought her back. People screwed up, and the scoobs knew they screwed up, Willow admitted she screwed up, people tend to have bad judgement when they think they are protecting the ones they love, just look at what Angel did this season.

 

[Icarium]

The lack of research or any evidence whatsoever that Buffy was in Hell. She didn't care where Buffy was. It didn't matter to Willow as long as he got to raise the dead.
-To cast a spell and not know so much about it is a disgrace. Especially something so dangerous and with such dire consequences. These are all things Willow knew.

That's not selfish, that's stupid (or more to the point badly written).

Her attitude and behaviour afterwards, "You're right. The Magicks I used are incredibly powerful. I'm incredibly powerful. And maybe it's not such a good idea for you to piss me off.". She didn't selflessly put her self on the line to save her friend. She got off on the power it gave her.

This happened after Giles had claimed he knew more about the spell (without even knowing what spell was used!) than Willow and had insulted her. OOC and ridiculous actions by both of them? Sure. Proof that Willow resurrected Buffy just to show off? Not so much. Had she wanted just to show off she could have resurrected any random fellow.

It's not like Willow stood in front of a bullet for Buffy. Buffy was dead. There was no life to save here.

Well, if you want to get all technical saving Buffy's soul or whatever is left of her after dead) doesn't really qualify as selfishness in my book.

She was wrong, but her heart was in the right place.

Yes, you said it best. Let's say Buffy was actually in hell. How many of you would have said "damn, it was so selfish of Willow to save her!" Anyone? Sure, Willow could have, you know, made sure, but IIRC, the story presented is that there was no way of knowing that. And I don't care if Angel managed it with Cordelia, the two shows had like a million such inconsistencies. Willow just couldn't take the chance of Buffy being in hell. Plus, it's not as if Buffy died after a long and happy life, her life was cruelly cut short. if there is even a slight chance of remedying that why not try it?

 

[Kean]

Willow did put herself on the line when she brought Buffy back. She literally had a snake come out of her body, and she got banged up because of it, she had cuts all over her body. Its not like she could have magically waved her arms and Buffy came back, it was a lot more dangerous than that. She was wrong, but her heart was in the right place. Willow brought Buffy back because she couldn't stand the thought of Buffy suffering for saving them, just because she didn't know that Buffy wasn't suffering doesn't mean that it wasn't coming from the right place. Willow defending herself against Giles doens't make her a bad person, she even aplogized to Giles after she had been sassy with him, she gave up magic that year, and tried until Tara's death sent her over the edge. The gang made many mistakes with the reserection but they weren't being just selfish when they brought her back. People screwed up, and the scoobs knew they screwed up, Willow admitted she screwed up, people tend to have bad judgement when they think they are protecting the ones they love, just look at what Angel did this season.

See, I don't see it as her putting her life on the line, I see it as her being utterly reckless with life, period. Including her own.

Buffy's suffering was a construct of her imagination. I can accept her wanting to save her friend from that. Who wouldn't? What I can't accept is her not bothering to check if it was even true. I just can't wrap my head around that at all.

Yes Willow got some cuts and scraps from the spell. A spell Buffy never asked her to do. A spell Buffy regretted happening at all. A spell that resulted in Buffy having to claw out of her own grave. Willow wasn't the only one who bled because of this spell. She put Buffy's life on the line too. I mean, what if Buffy hadn't been able to get out? What if she suffocated? Buried alive. I find the mere thought of this appalling.

I never said Willow was a bad person for how she spoke to Giles: I said her attitude was horrific. And it was. She was so cavalier.

I know Willow admitted she screwed up but that doesn't make it all OK. Especially when it was all so avoidable. So utterly unnecessary.

This is just one of those topics that gets my goat. My blood boils because of it. 😉

 

[Taake]

This is getting a little off topic guys, let's get back on track here concerning the forgivning or not of Angel and start a new thread for the Willow and the resurrection spell dilemma...

🙂

 

[Kean]

Yes, you said it best. Let's say Buffy was actually in hell. How many of you would have said "damn, it was so selfish of Willow to save her!" Anyone? Sure, Willow could have, you know, made sure, but IIRC, the story presented is that there was no way of knowing that. And I don't care if Angel managed it with Cordelia, the two shows had like a million such inconsistencies. Willow just couldn't take the chance of Buffy being in hell. Plus, it's not as if Buffy died after a long and happy life, her life was cruelly cut short. if there is even a slight chance of remedying that why not try it?

Nowhere was it said that there was no way of knowing. And you can't just ignore what happened on Angel as if it was an entirely different verse. It does count because they are the same verse and they share the same mythology.

No Buffy died after an incredibly hard life and death was her gift. She finally had peace. She was done.

 

[Hale Caesar]

IMO, Willow bringing back Buffy was just an incredibly stupid thing to do. Willow isn't God, and she has no reason to think she is

Yes. He is Angel and he was brainwashed...even though I was sad to see Giles go, Angel is still a good guy

 

[WakingNightmare]

IMO, Willow bringing back Buffy was just an incredibly stupid thing to do. Willow isn't God, and she has no reason to think she is

Yes. He is Angel and he was brainwashed...even though I was sad to see Giles go, Angel is still a good guy

Yes, he was possessed when he killed Giles.

But he wasn't possessed when he agreed to take on a force ten times stronger than him that would mean killing innocent people. He wasn't possessed when he had 206 of Buffy's girls murdered. He wasn't possessed when he ordered the death of a man who'd just gotten some information wrong.

And a bunch of other horrible things he did, not possessed.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Yes, he was possessed when he killed Giles.

But he wasn't possessed when he agreed to take on a force ten times stronger than him that would mean killing innocent people. He wasn't possessed when he had 206 of Buffy's girls murdered. He wasn't possessed when he ordered the death of a man who'd just gotten some information wrong.

And a bunch of other horrible things he did, not possessed.

You have a good point, however everyone has noticed a clear difference between the show and the comics. Season 8 takes so many characters out of context. Season 8 basically rips Angel apart and undoes everything that his show stood for during its 5 seasons. If David Greenwalt or some of the other writers were writing this season Angel wouldn't be a villain, it was a ridiculous twist they added because they wanted a way to make the comics as good as the show.

I'm sorry if i'm ranting about the comic and not the problem. But I can forgive Angel because the Angel that I loved in his TV show is not the same one that is in s8. Joss makes some poor decisions and I felt making Angel a bad guy is easily one of his biggest, I feel he needs those writers like David Greenwalt to keep him in check.

 

[WakingNightmare]

You have a good point, however everyone has noticed a clear difference between the show and the comics. Season 8 takes so many characters out of context. Season 8 basically rips Angel apart and undoes everything that his show stood for during its 5 seasons. If David Greenwalt or some of the other writers were writing this season Angel wouldn't be a villain, it was a ridiculous twist they added because they wanted a way to make the comics as good as the show.

I'm sorry if i'm ranting about the comic and not the problem. But I can forgive Angel because the Angel that I loved in his TV show is not the same one that is in s8. Joss makes some poor decisions and I felt making Angel a bad guy is easily one of his biggest, I feel he needs those writers like David Greenwalt to keep him in check.

I actually find everything that Angel's done this season to be very in character. While yes, killing innocents and torturing Buffy is very OOC, Angel has always put to much stock into prophecies and higher powers. He ultimately believes he has a destiny and would do anything to achieve it. It's not all surprising to me that if some great mystical power told Angel that committing heinous acts would lead to good, he would do it. And he has done it, right here.

It's Angel's most tragic flaw, in my opinion. He did chose to be a hero on his own, but he believes "destiny" chose him.

*Sigh*

We really need to get Cordelia in here.