From shallow to deep

[EvilWillow]

Why did Buffy all of a sudden go from a vapid shallow girly girl to a deep and caring about other type girl? This always bugged me because she just all of a sudden changed with no explanation.

 

[Living Dead Boy]

When such an incredibly important burden gets thrust upon someone, it doesn't take much to change. The weight of the world was literally on her tiny little shoulders, so it was either buck up or get off the truck. Plus, being in that situation kind of exposes you to the true horrors of the world. I think that even the most vapid, shallow person would see that and begin to change.

 

[brinkster130]

When she became the slayer she learned there were more important things in life than popularity and materialistic goods. Everything she knew about the world changed suddenly, it's not really surprising that a change that big would change someone's perspective and priorities.

We also don't really know how sudden her changes were, we only got a good view into her life after she arrived in Sunnydale; but she had been the slayer for a little while before that in LA.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

Why think she changed? Other that she went from a normal girl to a warrior that is.

Like [MENTION=10582]brinkster130[/MENTION] pointed out, we don't know how much depth she used to have. From The Origin comics, from what I remember, she was a bit of a bitch, but that doesn't mean she wasn't also a caring person.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

I think awakening the Slayer within her made her mature. In the way that Cordy matured and almost grew out of that the more she was introduced to the demon world.

I'm not sure that it was a random, sudden change at all. I don't think it happened overnight. I think once she hit a point where she accepted her destiny as the Slayer, and HAD to fight vampires and demons and got to a point where she lost all of her friends, I think that was her real break through to the mature, deeper person we now know as our beloved Buffy.

In addition, I'm not sure if she was ever REALLY that shallow, at the heart. We see her in flashbacks in Becoming, I believe it was, when she hears her parents fighting. The look on her face says it all, it really gives us a deeper glimpse into Buffy as a person, who at that point, seemed to be completely shallow.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Like [MENTION=10582]brinkster130[/MENTION] pointed out, we don't know how much depth she used to have. From The Origin comics, from what I remember, she was a bit of a bitch, but that doesn't mean she wasn't also a caring person.

Well, she said to Angel that she used to be Cordelia like before she became a Slayer.

Looking even from the first season, where she's already a slayer, to season 7, it's day and night to me.

In season 1 all she cared about was dates, friends and fun. She argued with Giles about going with him for an important mission to stop something very dangerous, because she had a date.

 

[kittenpoker]

I know the movie (with kristy swanson) isn't canon (I think) but it takes us through her journey from shallow to hero....

 

[EvilWillow]

Why think she changed? Other that she went from a normal girl to a warrior that is.

Like [MENTION=10582]brinkster130[/MENTION] pointed out, we don't know how much depth she used to have. From The Origin comics, from what I remember, she was a bit of a bitch, but that doesn't mean she wasn't also a caring person.

If you remember the flash back in Becoming, it shows her being worse than Cordelia. It took years and years for Cordelia to end up the person she became, apparently it only took Buffy less than a year.

 

[Icarium]

I would imagine Buffy was just pretending to be stupid and shallow to fit in with her vapid friends, just like Cordelai did.

In season 1 all she cared about was dates, friends and fun.

Dates? She had one date in season one and she cared enough about slaying to patrol every night.

She argued with Giles about going with him for an important mission to stop something very dangerous, because she had a date.

She argued with him because it was based on some random vague prophecy and the first tiem they went to the cemetery nothing happened. If Buffy were sure there was a real danger she wouldn't have thought about going on a date instead.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Dates? She had one date in season one and she cared enough about slaying to patrol every night.

She had one date because after it she realized that if she kept dating, the guys would get killed, just like almost happend to the only guy she dated.
Fact is, even if she patrolled every night (because she had to, she had no choice) she'd rather go out on dates and have fun, she still wanted out of her mission and this burden and be a normal girl. She's not even mature enough at this point and it shows.

In Prophecy Girl she made it clear. She wanted out. She didn't care about the fate of the world. She wanted a normal life, she wanted to live. It was only after that, by the end of the episode, by the end of the season that she realized what she has to do.

She argued with him because it was based on some random vague prophecy and the first tiem they went to the cemetery nothing happened. If Buffy were sure there was a real danger she wouldn't have thought about going on a date instead.

Are you saying Giles is always wrong about this stuff? That it couldn't have been real? The fact that it didn't come true in the end doesn't mean it couldn't have. Giles told her that this was serious, Giles is the watcher who knows about those stuff, she wasn't talking to Xander here (no offence to Xander). Buffy wanted to have normal life so much that she ignored his warning of what's gonna happen if that Annoying One rises. She didn't take the job seriously, because she wanted to be normal, but she's not. She has a calling, and that's not dating.

 

[Icarium]

Fact is, even if she patrolled every night (because she had to, she had no choice) she'd rather go out on dates and have fun, she still wanted out of her mission and this burden and be a normal girl.

Yes, so? Do you think that anyone saddled with a job they hate, which is supposed to kill them in a few years at best would not want out? Buffy did the job, that's what matters. This has nothing to do with maturity, everyone in their right mind would have wanted out.

Are you saying Giles is always wrong about this stuff?

No, I am saying Giles isn't infallible and neither are prophecies. Not to mention that Buffy did go with Giles the first time and the second time Giles's new lead (car crash --> must be vampires) was so completely implausible that it only turned to be genuine because it's a TV show.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Yes, so? Do you think that anyone saddled with a job they hate, which is supposed to kill them in a few years at best would not want out? Buffy did the job, that's what matters. This has nothing to do with maturity, everyone in their right mind would have wanted out.

That's what matters in the end because that way people don't die. But the fact that she wanted to do other stuff mean that she's immature about it. Of course I understand her. But that just doesn't change the fact that she prefered doing other stuff. Mature people don't walk out of their calling/their job just because they prefer doing other stuff. Mature Buffy wouldn't have quit when the Master is supposed to rise and take over the world. Mature people do things even if they don't like doing them. Buffy was shirking. In Reptile Boy she lied to Giles so she could go to a college party, after she met a boy. Is that mature?

No, I am saying Giles isn't infallible and neither are prophecies. Not to mention that Buffy did go with Giles the first time and the second time Giles's new lead (car crash --> must be vampires) was so completely implausible that it only turned to be genuine because it's a TV show.

But what makes you, or Buffy so sure that this prophecy wasn't correct. Giles calculated and only got the timing wrong, the prophecy did happen in the end. What would have happened if Buffy had gone to her date and the Annoying One was sired and everybody would have been in danger (maybe die) because of it? Because Buffy wanted to go out on a date.
Buffy went with Giles the first time because Giles made her, and she walked away. I know she walked away because nothing happened, but that goes to show how much she wanted out of there and go to her date. "Follow your hormones" as Giles said. What if after Buffy walked away the rising happened, if Giles discalculated only by a few minutes?

The second time Giles tried to convince her again to come with him, but she told him she had a date again because the first date didn't happen. She wasn't gonna go AGAIN, because of a date AGAIN. Basically, she told him to bite her.
Buffy got there later because Willow and Xander told her that they saw Giles in danger. So yeah, Buffy cares about Giles. But she blew him off twice, ignoring her job for a date. Immature again.

 

[EvilWillow]

[MENTION=8557]Skytteflickan88[/MENTION] agrees: You'll have to explain, how was she shown to be a non-caring person in those flashbacks? Or worse than Cordelia in any way?

"Where were you when I got over Tyler? He would have to crawl on his hands and knees to get me to go to the dance with him. Which he is doing after practice, so I'm gonna wait."

^ It is extremely selfish and shallow to makes someone crawl on their hands and knees to get your approval, especially when you are knowingly not going to give it to them any way.

 

[Icarium]

Buffy was shirking. In Reptile Boy she lied to Giles so she could go to a college party, after she met a boy. Is that mature?

Buffy wasn't shirking. She was scared. To death. It happens to plenty of mature people too. She wanted to quit after Becoming, after Empty Places and at other points in the series. Are you saying that was never really mature then? For my money, having moments of weakness when you are stuck in such tough and incredibly unfair situation is perfectly normal. As Whistler once put it It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are."

Buffy went with Giles the first time because Giles made her, and she walked away. I know she walked away because nothing happened, but that goes to show how much she wanted out of there and go to her date.

So what would you have had Buffy do? Spend the night in the cemetery, despite Giles also being convinced at the time that they were on a wild goose chase? Furthermore, Giles can't "make her" do anything. She went with him because she wanted to help.

The second time Giles tried to convince her again to come with him, but she told him she had a date again because the first time didn't happen. She wasn't gonna go AGAIN, because of a date AGAIN.

She would, if she didn't think Giles was just trying too hard. When it really mattered she did come to Giles's rescue and didn't go all "La-la-la, I can't hear you, I am on a date".

 

[Skytteflickan88]

"Where were you when I got over Tyler? He would have to crawl on his hands and knees to get me to go to the dance with him. Which he is doing after practice, so I'm gonna wait."

^ It is extremely selfish and shallow to makes someone crawl on their hands and knees to get your approval, especially when you are knowingly not going to give it to them any way.

I seriously doubt she meant that literally. I don't think she was that sadistic. Grovel yes, crawling, no. I assumed there would just be playful begging.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Buffy wasn't shirking. She was scared. To death. It happens to plenty of mature people too. She wanted to quit after Becoming, after Empty Places and at other points in the series. Are you saying that was never really mature then? For my money, having moments of weakness when you are stuck in such tough and incredibly unfair situation is perfectly normal. As Whistler once put it It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are."

Again, I get thatl. But when the fate of the world is up to you, you have to pick yourself up and do your job. Like in Empty Places. She gave up when it was hard, but in the end she picked herself up and did her job. Again, after Becoming. She took off (which was also immature, btw) but came back again and return to do her job. EVERYTIME she gives up and quit, she comes back on her feet. I love that she's scared, and in pain and wants to run away from things, because that what makes her character human and not just a Slayer who always has to be brave. She SHOULD have the right to fall apart sometimes. But as a Slayer, she must still do her job, or people will die/the world will end. The fact that she always comes backs makes it matture. The fact that she runs off isn't. And I'm not saying she shouldn't be a teenager and have fun and friends and yes, dates. But when you have a job to do at that time, you go and do it, and you don't blow it off. Date and fall apart in your own time, the more the better, not when a real danger is happening.

So what would you have had Buffy do? Spend the night in the cemetery, despite Giles also being convinced at the time that they were on a wild goose chase? Furthermore, Giles can't "make her" do anything. She went with him because she wanted to help.

Sometimes when you're a slayer, you can say: "no, we're staying, just to be sure". Buffy hurried up to her date instead of trying to make sure everything's fine for now. She CAN take charge sometimes and understand that as a Slayer you have to make sure no one get hurts before you hurry up to her own business. The fate of the world comes first. At that point, that wasn't on Buffy's mind. And Giles wasn't completly concinved that he was wrong, he said that he was probably wrong. Nothing was REALLY so important to give Buffy the right to blow off Giles when he asked her to go with him for both times.

Giles can't "make her" do anything. She went with him because she wanted to help.

I disagree. If Giles had let that go when she said she had a date, she would have gone to that date. Can't make her? She sat there until he dismissed her. And the second time she didn't go at all at first when he wanted her to. Only when she heard that he was in danger. He asked for her help the second time, but she refused, and he had to go there by himself, and he could have been killed. Looks like Xander and Willow had more of a will to help Giles. They actually followed him while Buffy was on her date.

She would, if she didn't think Giles was just trying too hard. When it really mattered she did come to Giles's rescue and didn't go all "La-la-la, I can't hear you, I am on a date".

What? Is that the reason she wouldn't go? Because Giles was trying too hard? Maybe he tried too hard because this was important, more important than her date? No, she had other interests. Nothing really to do with Giles. Buffy had a really hot guy (yeah, right) waiting for her at the Bronze.

When it really mattered she did come to Giles's rescue and didn't go all "La-la-la, I can't hear you, I am on a date".

That's my point. She wouldn't go to do her job, just until she knew for a fact that Giles was in danger. She came rescue him. How do you know that it wouldn't have been the "mattering moment" before that? She was shriking because she didn't take it seriously. Next time she doesn't take something seriously, someone will die. She shouldn't only go do her job when it matters, she should always be prepared, and that's what Giles is there for. That's why she's training daily, because any moment it could matter. It always matters. If you're not prepared... well, it could end the world.

 

[EvilWillow]

I seriously doubt she meant that literally. I don't think she was that sadistic. Grovel yes, crawling, no. I assumed there would just be playful begging.

I don't assume what she meant, I take what she said at face value. I doubt very seriously that she was joking with the tone of voice she was using.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I seriously doubt she meant that literally. I don't think she was that sadistic. Grovel yes, crawling, no. I assumed there would just be playful begging.

She didn't mean that literally. That's what people always say. But she did mean it non-literally. That just goes to show what her personality was like, the fact that she said something like this, even if it wasn't literally, she meant that saying literally.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

She didn't mean that literally. That's what people always say. But she did mean it non-literally. That just goes to show what her personality was like, the fact that she said something like this, even if it wasn't literally, she meant that saying literally.

I'm not saying she wasn't a bitch, I'm saying that she didn't do a 180, as the first poster said.

---------- Post added at 01:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 AM ----------

I don't assume what she meant, I take what she said at face value. I doubt very seriously that she was joking with the tone of voice she was using.

We'll just have to disagree about it. The Buffy we saw on the show wouldn't do something like that, and unless she got hit in the head and changed personality, she didn't mean it literally in the flashback.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I'm not saying she wasn't a bitch, I'm saying that she didn't do a 180, as the first poster said.

I think she did do a 180, she just didn't do a 360. She wasn't completely heartless, but she did act as you said, a bitch. From a shallow and mean girl to the hero she is today, that's a big change, and a huge difference, in my opinion.

We'll just have to disagree about it. The Buffy we saw on the show wouldn't do something like that, and unless she got hit in the head and changed personality, she didn't mean it literally in the flashback.

The Buffy we saw on the show wouldn't. But the Buffy of LA would. The Buffy that they bothered enough to show us in just one flashback of her at that time, that was about showing how different and Cordelia-like she used to be. And of course the change that started from the moment she was told she was a Slayer.