Gay subtext in media: why?

[Ethan Reigns]

If you don't write LGBT characters into your show, it's cultural insensitivity. If you do write LGBT characters into your show, it's cultural appropriation. There isn't a winning play here other than the fact that these are false issues. It will be a long time before you get a bisexual main character. And a lot of people have seen a lot of TV where the homosexuality was a key element in the story and now they are ready to go back to the plot being more important than the politics.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

If you don't write LGBT characters into your show, it's cultural insensitivity. If you do write LGBT characters into your show, it's cultural appropriation.

Oh! Boo hoo!

There isn't a winning play here other than the fact that these are false issues.

That's rather dismissive.

go back to the plot being more important than the politics.

It is always about politics. If it doesn't feel like it, it is because you are not being challenged.

We tell stories, because we have something to say. If the stories lose their meaning ... cease to be political in any way, then we must have stagnated. If wrote a story and got it on TV, I would be so disappointed if nobody was a little bit outraged.

 

[Mylie]

If you don't write LGBT characters into your show, it's cultural insensitivity.

Lol, no it's not. It just means that a big part of the gay audience won't be interested in your show because guess what, they are looking for representation. So yes, if I have to pick between 2 shows with the same premise and only one of them has lesbians in it, that's the one I'll pick. Doesn't mean I won't ever watch a show without lgbt characters though.

If you do write LGBT characters into your show, it's cultural appropriation.

What? Do you even know what cultural appropriation is? And no. Look at most shows with gay characters out there and people are not screaming cultural appropriation. That is honestly the first time I hear that, it's so ridiculous.

There isn't a winning play here other than the fact that these are false issues.

There is one. You don't have to write an lgbt character but if you do, do it with respect.

It will be a long time before you get a bisexual main character.

Not true. Clarke Griffin on The 100 is bisexual and she is the lead character of the show.

And a lot of people have seen a lot of TV where the homosexuality was a key element in the story and now they are ready to go back to the plot being more important than the politics.

Fine, they can go back to it. They can also watch a show where plot and politics are the most important thing WITH lgbt characters. The Good Fight is an example of that. And I'll add : this last concern honestly baffles me. Why target lbgt characters/ships when this is also a thing with straight ships? Everything has become about ships in the medias. Just look at the debates still going on over the 20th anniversary of Buffy. What was the most talked about thing? Bangel or Spuffy? Those are not lgbt ships. It's everywhere!

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It is always about politics. If it doesn't feel like it, it is because you are not being challenged.

Yes, it's always about politics, just some people would prefer it be subtle and not beaten over the head with a sign saying "SEE MY POINT! SEE MY POINT!"
 

It just means that a big part of the gay audience won't be interested in your show [if you don't have a LGBT character]

And THAT is exactly the problem and the point I was making with @Blaze with media representation.

 

[Mylie]

Yes, it's always about politics, just some people would prefer it be subtle and not beaten over the head with a sign saying "SEE MY POINT! SEE MY POINT!"
 

And THAT is exactly the problem and the point I was making with @Blaze with media representation.

What is the problem exactly? That LGTB people want to feel represented on TV? That they are looking for shows with characters who are dealing with the same things as they are? Aren't we allowed to have entertainment that reflects our reality too?

I don't get it. Why do you care if some people won't be interested in watching a show because they are looking for other shows that appeals to them more because the characters in them are more like them? It's like poc who prefer watching movies/tv shows with poc. Should they content themselves with entertainment that only features white people?
 
@Mr. Pole

It's a bit confusing but the part I wanted to quote was your reply to my post, not @WillowFromBuffy 's, but somehow the quote got mixed up.

I'm not sure what you don't understand in the 2nd paragraph? It seems pretty simple to me...

 

[Skanky Vamp]

It's a bit confusing but the part I wanted to quote was your reply to my post, not @WillowFromBuffy 's, but somehow the quote got mixed up.

And I answered that already in a previous post.

I'm not sure what you don't understand in the 2nd paragraph? It seems pretty simple to me...

I would hope it would make sense to you! You wrote it.

 

[Antho]

Can I be one of those annoying people who asks, 'Doesn't people read a heterosexual subtext into every platonic male-female relationship?' If you're watching a movie and there is a boy and the girl, you know they are going to bang at the end. If they don't, you pretend they did ... or at least wanted to.

It's like friendship doesn't exist. You're a stong women, you're strong man, you have complicity = YOU MUST BE TOGETHER. Who care about friendship if there is sexual relationship.. I don't believe anymore in friendship on TV..

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

It's like friendship doesn't exist. You're a stong women, you're strong man, you have complicity = YOU MUST BE TOGETHER. Who care about friendship if there is sexual relationship.. I don't believe anymore in friendship on TV..

Oh! Don't get me wrong. I am a sucker for romance. Gay, straight, lesbian, triangles - bring it on.

We live in this post-genuine, ironic society where we frown upon sentimentality. I love that BtVS is a show that takes love seriously and makes no apologies for it. "When I'm in love, you best believe I'm in love L-U-V."

Of course I hate it when hunky hero inexplicably falls deeply in love with token blonde, whose characterisation is hot pants wearing nuclear physicist, but that is a separate issues. It is mostly in movies, not TV.

 

[Antho]

I love romance too. I think the fact I'm a Bangel shipper proves that. If I wasn't a sentimental guy who love romance, I would never be a fan of Bangel. So it's not like I'm againt love on TV. I guess I'm just annoyed when every time there is a little chemistry between two characters, people ship them and we have a couple. Best example for me is Destiel on Supernatural. I don't ship them, people do and I have no problem with that, really ! It's just that the fan base behind is sooo big that the producers feel obliged to force things and I find that quite annoying.

 

[Puppet]

I love romance too. I think the fact I'm a Bangel shipper proves that. If I wasn't a sentimental guy who love romance, I would never be a fan of Bangel. So it's not like I'm againt love on TV. I guess I'm just annoyed when every time there is a little chemistry between two characters, people ship them and we have a couple. Best example for me is Destiel on Supernatural. I don't ship them, people do and I have no problem with that, really ! It's just that the fan base behind is sooo big that the producers feel obliged to force things and I find that quite annoying.

I somewhat agree about Destiel, mostly because I was sooo happy to finally find a TV show that didn't have any romantic coupling in it, so it annoyed me that fans tried to create what wasn't there. But I guess I don't get as annoyed these days for two reasons; 1) I can kinda see where they coming from, thanks to the great chemistry between the two actors that play Dean and Cass, and 2) because I, personally, don't find any part of Supernatural to be queerbaiting.

Honestly, I have no problem with non-canon shipping (so long as they are not incestious, like Wincest) but I still remain curious about what makes someone ship non-canon. At this point I'm almost wishing I hadn't made this thread about gay non-canon shipping, but just non-canon shipping in general. I guess it's cause, when I came up with this thread idea, I had just read something about a gay non-canon ship and so it ended up like this.

 

[Monkey Pants]

Are you guys kidding me? "I can like gay people without wanting to see them on my screen!" Um...no. Part of being NOT homophobic is acknowledging that gay people actually live in society. Therefore, they will also be a part of media. If you're so bothered by that, you probably have some fear or bigotry that you might want to try to deal with. Acting like gay people and ships are overrunning TV and movies is completely ridiculous, being as how we can STILL barely get any real representation, and look how we're treated when we do. With how much predictable, boring straight romance there is that we have to endure, I don't think you guys have any room for complaint.

 

[Antho]

Just to be clear before someone attack me, because I can see people are angry in this thread :

When I said I don't like Destiel, it's just mean that I don't ship them not I'm against ship which involves two men ! When I said I have the feeling that the producers force things, it's just means that I think they want to satisfy the fan base behind not that I'm against gay couple on TV. I just want to say that I can don't ship a gay couple for other reasons than being an homophobic, which I'm not !

@Blaze Fine 🙂 I understand but I just want to clarify my opinion before someone misunterpreted.

 

[Evil Seal]

I know it won't contribute much to the conversation, but it might bring a new set of eyes to this thread.
Why I ship Spangel :
- I don't want either of them ending up with Buffy, she deserves better. I like Bangel and I like Spuffy, but they feel more like pit stops to me, not end game romances. So in a sense I ship Bangel & Spuffy, but only for a definite timeline, not forever. Don't misunderstand me, those relationships were really important to Buffy, to her growth and to the story of course.
- Spike and Angel have always had amazing chemistry and honestly I ship them as best buds even more than I ship them as a couple. I ship them as a couple because I know that it will never happen (it would disrupt the whole romantic part of BtVS). Still, some scenes have slightly homoerotic undertones which I didn't notice at first (so I don't think it was intended as queerbaiting).

I hope I've managed to express myself correctly because, I don't know why but, today I can't seem to find the words in English.
 
And btw, I think it's a great idea for a thread @Puppet

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"I can like gay people without wanting to see them on my screen!"

Who said that? Unless I skipped over comments I never saw that being said.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Just reminding everyone to please discuss this topic calmly - there is no need to get nasty with each other.

 

[Taake]

I get that it's important to make headway for the LGBT community in all aspects of the world, including popular media. But in attempting to do so, are we sometimes taking things a bit too far?

No, not really. Unless someone can give an example of what "too far" would be?*

*I'm not counting Wincest because I don't think you can connect homosexuality in general with incest-shipping.

Why are so many fans of so many shows determined to read gay subtext into every same-sex friendship on some of their favorite TV shows? I've been seeing it countless places recently and I'm honestly just very confused.

Because people see connections and are drawn to it. It helps them invest in the characters. Romantic connection often humanises and shows softer sides of fictional characters, it's an appealing part of the characters' stories.

Is it because of a lack of a real relationship between one or both of these characters? Is it because of the movement that the LGBT have mostly successfully done in recent years? Or is it as simple as men and women being 'turned on' by homoerotic relationships, despite their own sexuality?

No it's interpretative. The audience will see what they want to see, or find something appealing depending on their own experiences, perhaps it's just more acceptable now to ship same-sex and therefore people are more open and drawn to it in general.

Examples such as Dean/Castiel from Supernatural and Jessica/Trish from Jessica Jones come to mind, but they are just the tip of the proverbial iceberg.

I don't see a Destiel love-connection, but I can understand why others do. They are committed to each other. They have a special bond. They have chemistry.
The writers play with it obviously, a bit of a fan service, and I think it's a bit patronizing in the sense that Dean is obviously, and constantly, shown to be straight. So little off-handed comments as to their connection always seems like a bit of a "you can't have this, but we'll tease you with it", which may please fans of the ship but it's a far cry from any kind of open and natural same-sex relationship. Basically, I think that people read gay subtext into same-sex friendships because there's still few real same-sex relationships in general shows (i.e. not the L Word or something like it, sorry if I don't have any more recent examples) for people to connect with.

 

[GwenRaiden]

I think @Mr. Pole has a point. The writing and character development of gay characters, as far as I see it, should be authentic and true to the cause, not just lumped in to make up the numbers, so to speak. Otherwise it does no one any good, other than the fat cat tv execs who cash in on the hype. Same goes for straight characters and relationships. To NOT see a couple become romantically involved is refreshing these days. I think lazy writing has a lot to do with it. Personally, some of my favourite TV shows feature gay characters and gay relationships, and are written so genuinely and are acted so well and with real respect that they shine brighter than straight relationships/characters in the same show, eg. Keith and David in Six Feet Under, and Omar Little from The Wire. I wish more shows wouldn't follow in the same footsteps. To write gay relationships as normal and loving as any other and not overly sexualise and fetishise it to gain ratings and money should be number 1. The same way LGBT writers and directors should be involved in the process, because authenticity should be key, surely?

 

[Athena]

Personally, some of my favourite TV shows feature gay characters and gay relationships, and are written so genuinely and are acted so well and with real respect that they shine brighter than straight relationships/characters in the same show, eg. Keith and David in Six Feet Under, and Omar Little from The Wire. I wish more shows wouldn't follow in the same footsteps. To write gay relationships as normal and loving as any other and not overly sexualise and fetishise it to gain ratings and money should be number 1. The same way LGBT writers and directors should be involved in the process, because authenticity should be key, surely?

Absolutely agree with this. One of the things I love about Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is that Darryl & White Josh's relationship is not only respectfully shown as a relationship between a gay man and a bisexual man, but also that they're actually the most down-to-earth, stable and loving relationship in the show, unlike the heterosexual relationships which are almost always not! Darryl & WhiJo aren't fetishished or treated any differently to any other partnership on the show, and there's no jokes at their expense like in other comedy genre shows. It's so refreshing to see it. I wish more shows just took the time to write their LGBTQ characters with the same respect.

I'd rather authentic genuine relationships between LGBTQ characters, than the gay character tropes we see again and again in most media.

(Just to add that I know there are other shows that do, I just can't think of any off the top of my head that I know right now!)

 

[Buffy Summers]

To write gay relationships as normal and loving as any other and not overly sexualise and fetishise it to gain ratings and money should be number 1.

Agree 100% here with you. I'm actually surprised there isn't more of an uproar about over sexualizing gay characters in general. I know it's a peeve of mine.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

The only thing worse than oversexualised gay characters is when they represent gay people as eunuchs who love broadway shows and speak with a lisp.

I am going to watch the new episode of Life is Strange as soon as I get the time. It literally lets you chose if the protagonist is straight or gay or just friendly. Of course, the straight love interest is always dull as dishwater compared to the super exciting gay one. The future is interactive 😎