Get Out.

[Kean]

Ok there has been alot of discussion about the Scoobies betrayal of Buffy when they kicked her out. Mostly it has focused on Buffy and Xander but I wanted to include everyone else, so that means Willow, Dawn and Giles.

Persoanlly those scenes made me like the Scoobs a little less. It was mutiny as White Avenger so fittingly put it. I'm especially angry at Giles, of any of them there he had a duty to stand with his Slayer.

What is everyone else's view.

 

[sosa lola]

Here's my poor attempt at explaining the characters:

Buffy:

After all these disappointments, Buffy needs to win, she needs everybody to trust her ability to win. Just like in Showtime when she had asked Xander and Willow to find a place for her to kill the Ubervamp with the potentials watching her win. Not to mention, she has this neat idea about the high school not being guarded. You know the feeling you get when you're so sure about something and you want your buds to trust your judgment but they just don't. It can be frustrating.

Xander:

I always thought that Xander was supposed to be sympathized with, but I guess not in this board 😉

Here comes the significance of Xander losing an eye. Xander had to get hurt badly after he had backed up Buffy in her 'reckless' plan in Dirty Girls. The fact that Xander was so loyal to Buffy and that his pay for this loyalty was getting maimed, followed by Buffy showing no sympathy (at least in front of Xander) and then later Giles mentions that Buffy doesn't trust them anymore, all that made Xander break. He wasn't broken when he lost his eye, he was broken that his loyalty and attempt to be strong didn't mean anything to Buffy. Who's the person who had backed up Buffy when everybody ganged up on her in Dirty Girls? It was Xander, the keeper of the house, the center of unite. When Xander got hurt, the house broke down and Buffy got kicked out.

Some fans say, "So he got a booboo, big deal, he had signed up seven years ago to fight with Buffy, he should know there'll be consequences." He knows. Why else was he understanding in the hospital, but losing a part of your body isn't something you can pfft away. And again I repeat, that wasn't what has broken him.


Willow:

She just gave her opinion. She didn't like Buffy's plan. As for her out-of-characterness when she let Buffy leave the house, Willow was obviously crushed by Xander's injury. She showed disappointment in Buffy when she didn't stay by Xander's side a bit longer in the hospital. Willow noticed the change in Buffy's character. Willow is the most supportive friend of Buffy. She supports Buffy even when she doesn't like her decisions. Now this time she doesn't support Buffy. Willow, being the sweet girl she was, told Buffy so gently that she didn't approve of her plan. I was shocked it was Faith who followed Buffy outside and not Willow. But then Willow, like Xander and Giles, is a minor character at this point of the series.

Giles:

Also like Willow, gave his opinion that, no, he didn't like Buffy's plan. He's also annoyed that Buffy still accused him of disloyalty because of one mistake he was doing for the greater good. Giles is a man that will do anything to save the world, even if it was behind his friends' back. Wasn't Giles who hinted that he will kill Dawn in S5? Wasn't Giles who killed an innocent (Ben) for the world? Why won't Giles kill Spike for the world then? Spike was still under The First influance and The First had stated it had bigger plans for Spike. Shouldn't Spike be chained? Wasn't that what Giles had asked Buffy? To have Spike chained? She didn't listen to Giles obviously because of her feelings for Spike. While going behind Buffy's back was wrong of Giles, I still feel that Buffy's resentment of him stayed for quite a long time to the point where she started to unfairly accuse him of any little thing.

Dawn:

Dawn was mostly hurt for what happened to Xander. Buffy didn't show any concern over what happened to Xander. We, the audience, know that she cared because of the touching picture scene, but the Scoobies didn't see that. We've seen Dawn asking Buffy if Xander was okay but Buffy kept ignoring her. Then we see Buffy once again ordering the potentials to go at it again with no proof if Buffy was right or wrong. Buffy doesn't take others' suggestions, and she was taking the weight of the world on her shoulders alone. She needed to rest, she needed the others to help her, she shouldn't do it alone. Dawn had tears in her eyes afterwards and snapped at Rona to shut up when she made fun of Buffy. Dawn cares about Buffy, but Buffy needed to rest, she needed to work with them together as a team not as a leader.

Anya:

Anya seems to be resentful towards Buffy ever since Selfless. It's understandable. As for her comment about Buffy's luckiness, I agree that just because she's the slayer, that doesn't make Buffy better than them, but there was no way Buffy was lucky to be a slayer.

Faith:

Of all of them, Faith was the only one who tried to leave resentment out of the discussion. She kept her emotions under control, and had more reason trying to get Buffy to understand that her plan was crazy. But sadly Buffy won't listen to Faith. Faith wanted everybody to calm down. I think the fact that Faith didn't live through the entire crazy atmosphere of season 7, didn't listen to Buffy's speeches, didn't sleep on the thought that she'll be killed any minute had kept her level headed. She was the only one who tried to keep the house from blowing, but since she's no Xander, poor thing couldn't handle the situation alone.


Here's what Drew Greenberg said about this scene:

"The point of that scene was to go back to one of the things that I loved most about college, which is when you take an argument and present both sides of it, and you do your very best to make sure that neither side is right [or] wrong. It's about two very valid points of view. We did our very best in that scene to make sure both points of view were valid. That meant that when Willow chimes in, she doesn't want to hurt Buffy, but she has to stand up and say, 'We have a point of view that you need to listen to,' and Willow was a part of that chorus that came from the rest of the group. I never thought of the final scene as about anybody's loyalty switching from Buffy. I think they were as much trying to protect Buffy as themselves. I think they saw that she was rushing into something that she shouldn't be rushing into."

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I've just spent ages putting my POV in two other threads so I'll give a far more condensed view here.

Xanders betrayal was based on his fear of being hurt.

Willows betrayal was based on her fear of the Magics.

Giles betrayal was based on him being upset that Buffy told him she didn't need him anymore(and he's the most adult!!!)

Faith didn't betray, she was forced into a situation.

Dawn was looking out for her sister, there is no betrayal here, only love.

 

[sosa lola]

I don't think disagreeing with someone's decision could be called betrayal. That's just my opinion, and obviously Drew Greenberg's opinion.

 

[Kean]

I've just spent ages putting my POV in two other threads so I'll give a far more condensed view here.

Xanders betrayal was based on his fear of being hurt.

Willows betrayal was based on her fear of the Magics.

Giles betrayal was based on him being upset that Buffy told him she didn't need him anymore(and he's the most adult!!!)

Faith didn't betray, she was forced into a situation.

Dawn was looking out for her sister, there is no betrayal here, only love.

I agree completely with what you said. Willow, Giles and Xander did not betray Buffy for her own good, so she could learn a valuable lesson. They were all looking out for themselves. When she walked out that door she was gone.period.

This was their chance to show how truly loyal they were to Buffy and they blew it. Throughout the whole series Buffy was always the one to truly carry the burden. When some of the weight fell on the Scoobies they could never handle it. No matter what happened to Buffy in a fight she would ALWAYS be there for her friends and so many times they let her down. I'm not saying that Buffy doesn't have her faults, cuz we all know she does but throwing her out was a new low.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I don't think disagreeing with someone's decision could be called betrayal. That's just my opinion, and obviously Drew Greenberg's opinion.

The betrayal isn't the disagreeing, the betrayal is the way they attack her infront of the 'army' and their false reasoning.

 

[Kean]

This has to be looked at within a military framework, cuz that was what it was. Forget emotions. This was war and they needed to fall into line. The potentials had never experienced this kind of situation before, the scoobies had. They saw Buffy struggling to get the potentials onside and it is their job as her sergeants to back her up. They could hae addressed their issues with her plan in private, by doing it infront of the 'army' they deliberatley undermined her and made it impossible for her to lead.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

This has to be looked at within a military framework, cuz that was what it was. Forget emotions. This was war and they needed to fall into line. The potentials had never experienced this kind of situation before, the scoobies had. They saw Buffy struggling to get the potentials onside and it is their job as her sergeants to back her up. They could hae addressed their issues with her plan in private, by doing it infront of the 'army' they deliberatley undermined her and made it impossible for her to lead.

Exactly - I would have had the same misgivings as the gang, but they should have done it in private.

 

[sosa lola]

The betrayal isn't the disagreeing, the betrayal is the way they attack her infront of the 'army' and their false reasoning.

How did Willow and Xander attack her exactly? Willow said that she wasn't sure of Buffy's plan (she even said it gently, if somewhat, sadly) and Xander said he was trying to see her point but couldn't.

I'm not talking about an army here, I'm talking about two characters who did not push Buffy to be this General. Remember when Willow backed Buffy up in Get It Done? She did it because she thought Buffy had a point. Remember when Buffy was harsh and Xander replied that she should remember that they were her friends, not soldiers. Clearly they didn't want to be soldiers, they wanted to state their opinions and give their suggestions.

Giles was the one who wanted her to be General Buffy, not Xander and Willow. They were there to be supportive friends when they thought she was doing the right thing. They didn't think so in Empty Places and they had stated their opinions.

So I don't think stating your opinion could be called betrayal.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Xander really wasn't trying to see it from her POV.
His cutting remark tells you this. The tone of it even suggests he blames her for the smush and is sure he will end up worse if he follows her plan.

After everything that Buffy has done and sacrificed, not just for the world BUT for her friends, the betrayal comes in the form of them not trusting her and letting their fears take precedence to that and NOT backing her up when everyone else is attacking her.

Willow and Xander, no matter what tone they had, allowed there fears to stop them from telling the potentials, faith and wood that they were wrong, they should have faith and trust in Buffy because she had not let them down in the past. This is what she does, this is where she 'lives' and they turned their back on the friendships because of their fears.

Xander/Willow/Buffy had had this conversation before. She is the Slayer. Friendship aside, she IS the leader of this group, it's her first and foremost task to protect the world from the coming evil and to do that she has to make the tough decisions, which does include taking her friends into a fight they may not survive. Its a sad fact that she has to deal with.

They didn't have to be part of the fight, they wanted to be there BUT you can't go to war with all generals and no soldiers, so they either follow the leader or don't fight.

 

[GATEGOD]

Ok there has been alot of discussion about the Scoobies betrayal of Buffy when they kicked her out. Mostly it has focused on Buffy and Xander but I wanted to include everyone else, so that means Willow, Dawn and Giles.

Persoanlly those scenes made me like the Scoobs a little less. It was mutiny as White Avenger so fittingly put it. I'm especially angry at Giles, of any of them there he had a duty to stand with his Slayer.

What is everyone else's view.

Pure blood mutiny!!

Giles upset that Buffy won't listen to him so he betrays her.
Willow upset about Xander's eye and see's Buffy pushing away so she betrays her.
Xander pissed about his eye and not even thinking about there friendship betrays her.
Dawn needing attention and not getting any disagrees with Buffy aswell .....
Anya...duh she never agrees with Buffy
Spike, Spike would have slaughtered the entire room to have Buffy stay 🙁 if only he was there!
Faith...well she just stood there ....
Robin..what an idiot! Buffy won't let him kill spike so he Betrays her aswell...

Arg!

eh, plus i still blame Xander for leaving Anya and inevitably leading to her death where in if he never left her then he would never have fought by dawn's side meaning she would probably be alive >.< sounds stupid, but i blame him.

 

[sosa lola]

Xander really wasn't trying to see it from her POV.

His remark surely sounded sarcastic after he heard that Buffy didn't trust them anymore. I think that what hurt him the most. In the hospital he was understanding about Buffy's need to leave, and didn't seem to blame her, but then when it looked like she didn't care about his injury, didn't trust him, didn't try to listen to the group, he lashed out. I do think he tried to see her point, though, he looked quite interested at first.

After everything that Buffy has done and sacrificed, not just for the world BUT for her friends, the betrayal comes in the form of them not trusting her and letting their fears take precedence to that and NOT backing her up when everyone else is attacking her.

She also stated that she didn't trust them to Giles earlier before this scene. After everything they had done for her, after all these years of sacrificing their normal lives to help her with hers, she said that she didn't trust them anymore.

Willow and Xander, no matter what tone they had, allowed there fears to stop them from telling the potentials, faith and wood that they were wrong,

But Xander and Willow didn't think they were wrong. They thought they were right.

they should have faith and trust in Buffy because she had not let them down in the past.

I think Buffy had her share of falling into traps in the past when her friends tried to warn her, When She Was Bad and Becoming Part 1 come to mind.

They didn't have to be part of the fight, they wanted to be there BUT you can't go to war with all generals and no soldiers, so they either follow the leader or don't fight.

Or they could sit down and listen to each other's ideas and suggestions just like they did in the past. The problem was, even when Faith took the lead, that they all listened to one voice, and even though Buffy and Faith are strong, it does not mean they're know-it-all kind of girls.

I remember when studying Henry The Fifth, how he was a great leader because he treated his soldiers with respect and listened to them. Things Buffy sadly hadn't been doing in S7, so it's no wonder the potentials didn't like/respect her much.

I understand why Buffy became this hard woman, but I don't expect the potentials to understand that. I don't even expect the Scoobies to, seeing how Buffy kept cutting herself from them all but Spike.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I recently read a fanfic that made some excellent points about the relationships between Buffy and her friends, especially in S6, that might have some bearing here.

Buffy was in constant pain from having been yanked out of heaven. She came back to discover that most of her money was gone and two more people had moved into her house. And as far as we know, neither Willow nor Tara were paying rent or utilities or anything like that. Then Willow went all dark and got Dawn's arm broken. Did she help pay the medical bills? Probably not.

So Buffy goes to work. She now has two jobs, burger slinger and Slayer, and she's working herself into sheer exhaustion in one of the most demeaning jobs possible (the show really didn't cover just how horrible fast food can be), and the only person who seems to care enough to try to help is Spike. And Tara, but that was after she moved out. Willow's not helping, and in some ways is making things worse. Dawn's too young to get a job, and is having trouble just staying in school. Xander's busy with Anya and his job. Giles flat out abandoned her, then when he came back, he started trying to order her around again. Is it any wonder that Buffy felt so alone and almost gave in to the dark side, then almost killed all her friends to be "normal", then didn't trust them at all by S7? I mean, really.

So while Buffy made some bad decisions, I think the scoobies deserve an equal, if not greater, share of the blame. I think that not a darn one of them tried to understand what Buffy was going through--what they were making her go through since they had pulled her out of heaven to begin with. It all came to a head in this episode, and since there were more of them than there were of her, of course they won. Quite frankly I'm amazed Buffy ever came back to help them.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

His remark surely sounded sarcastic after he heard that Buffy didn't trust them anymore. I think that what hurt him the most. In the hospital he was understanding about Buffy's need to leave, and didn't seem to blame her, but then when it looked like she didn't care about his injury, didn't trust him, didn't try to listen to the group, he lashed out. I do think he tried to see her point, though, he looked quite interested at first.

If he even thought for a moment that she didn't care that he was hurt, he wasn't that close to her. He was one of her closest friends, but she had so much to do to SAVE THE WORLD. Don't you think, had she the time, she'd have been with him. If he doesn't know that, he doesn't know his best friend, Buffy.

As for the trust thing, do you have the exact wording because I don't remember it being anything like 'I can't trust these people, I think they will stab me in the back' which Ironically is what they did.

Actually I found it

'BUFFY
You sent away the guy who's been
watching my back. Again. I think --

GILES
We are all watching your back.

BUFFY
Yeah. Funny how I don't really feel
that lately.'

This was after a conversation regarding Spike. 'All' in this context is 'Giles' thats obvious. No one else comes into the fray(except maybe Robin). Giles then distorts this later in the argument to encompass the WHOLE gang. Giles manipulated the situation.

Giles was so annoyed that Buffy admitted she didn't need him, he attacked her.

Like she says in the whole thing

"I don't understand. Seven years I've
kept us safe by doing this, exactly
this, making the hard decisions.
Suddenly you're all acting like you
don't trust me. "

The we have Xander later

"XANDER
We follow you without question. Even
when you have no idea what you're
doing. Even when you get mad at us
for not working hard enough at a plan
which doesn't exist, because you
don't know what you're doing. We
keep following you, even then.
(beat)
And we keep paying the price.

BUFFY
(quiet)
Xander. I've paid the price, too,
sometimes."

Forgive me, but tallying up everything they've ALL lost and the fact they are still there fighting BECAUSE of Buffy's plans, why is he using this against her?
Unless you take into account his fear this time because it's hurt him.

 

[white avenger]

An issue that we have been ignoring throughout this discussion is that the original idea of taking the Potentials into battle wasn't Buffy's, it was Robin's. Granted Buffy was the one who made the final decision of taking them into a completely unknown situation instead of a more controlled environment (something like ambushing a group of Bringers in an alley where her options of retreat were more favorable, but after everything hit the fan, she never tried to blame the disaster on someone who admitted that he was "completely out of his depth in this," and he never stepped forward to accept it. In fact, he was quite outspoken in a discussion he had no business in.

Buffy's biggest mistake in this whole matter was allowing the discussion to begin in the first place. She should have taken her inner circle aside, revealed her plan, asked for advice in terms of strategy and logistics, and ultimately made the decision herself, expecting and demanding that she be supported by her friends. In a similar real life situation, President Lincoln had a meeting in which he discussed with his chief advisers his decision of replacing the commander of the Union Army with who he considered to be a more able leader. His advisers were unanimous in their opposition, after which the President stated, "The vote is one yea, twelve no. The yeas have it," and appointed Ulysses Grant as Commander.

Despite what Greenberg wanted the scene to be, this was most definitely NOT a college discussion, it was a military command decision. Commanders do not make suggestions or discuss their decisions. They give orders and expect them to be obeyed.

If anyone should have been asked to leave, it should have been Robin Wood. He did nothing but instigate and make trouble throughout the entire season. And just for the record, he is most certainly NOT prettier than Faith (Andrew possibly, but not Faith).

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

i think it was terribly wrong to have these whole big falling out in front of the other potentials. it was just... so gut wrenching. here buffy is, being forced out of her own home, and theres like 25+ people grilling her, ugh, its not to say that a part of me doesnt think she deserved to be removed from power for the time being (she was getting a little crazy there). But kicked out of her own house was harsh. and to be attacked by so many.... it was messed up.

 

[Kean]

i think it was terribly wrong to have these whole big falling out in front of the other potentials. it was just... so gut wrenching. here buffy is, being forced out of her own home, and theres like 25+ people grilling her, ugh, its not to say that a part of me doesnt think she deserved to be removed from power for the time being (she was getting a little crazy there). But kicked out of her own house was harsh. and to be attacked by so many.... it was messed up.

I don't think she was going crazy, I think she felt very much on her own. Everyone pressuring her to take charge and be the leader. She didn't have the support from her friends she usually had and I thik she wasn't sure how to lead. She needed back up and she just didn't have it.

I think Spike and Angel provided that for Buffy in the final episodes. I don't want to turn this tread into which vamp was better, we have enough of them going. But Spikes speech gave her the strenght to go after Caleb and I think Angel's presence did to. His simple comment to caleb 'You are so going to lose' showed a trust and belief in Buffy that her friends didn't. Also, him accepting her wishes that she wanted him to set up the second front showed he trusted her plan and believed she could get it done. He didn't question her about the plan itself, just about Spike. I think it was these things that gave her the strenght and belief that she could do it.

 

[GATEGOD]

I don't think she was going crazy, I think she felt very much on her own. Everyone pressuring her to take charge and be the leader. She didn't have the support from her friends she usually had and I thik she wasn't sure how to lead. She needed back up and she just didn't have it.

I think Spike and Angel provided that for Buffy in the final episodes. I don't want to turn this tread into which vamp was better, we have enough of them going. But Spikes speech gave her the strenght to go after Caleb and I think Angel's presence did to. His simple comment to caleb 'You are so going to lose' showed a trust and belief in Buffy that her friends didn't. Also, him accepting her wishes that she wanted him to set up the second front showed he trusted her plan and believed she could get it done. He didn't question her about the plan itself, just about Spike. I think it was these things that gave her the strenght and belief that she could do it.

Not to mention the fact that she was right... they needed to go back in.

 

[Blondie Bear]

As per Keonite's request, here's the info for that fanfic:

"Affinity" by Ginmar at All About Spike. The first half is amazingly good and insightful (if a little mechanically shaky), but the second half, after Spike comes back from L.A., kind of falls apart. Luckily, all the good stuff is in that first half, including the insights into Buffy's relationships with everyone.

 

[Kean]

Not to mention the fact that she was right... they needed to go back in.

Exactly, it was a bit like Becoming.

Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No
hope...Take all that away... and what's left?

Buffy: Me.


Buffy had to trust herslef when no-one else around her did. Thats something she had struggled with for a long time.