Giles and Buffy: Season Seven

[Flannen]

Giles should feel guilty for tricking Buffy into "patrolling" with him when in reality, he was waiting for Wood to make his move on the unsuspecting Spike, whom was arguably her closest friend at the time.

I do agree with you here, he shouldn't have tricked her.

And, let's not forget how Giles didn't seem at all concerned for one minute that Wood might be in danger in his little "attempt" to bring down Spike. Giles only wanted Spike dead and out of the way, regardless of the cost. What was Wood thinking going and purposely triggering Spike's chip? Spike was ten times stronger then him. He was asking to get killed. The only reason Spike didn't kill Wood was because he knew it would upset Buffy. Wood deserved everything that was coming to him.

There's no reason to think that Giles didn't care enough to think about Wood's well-being. Wood would have made it very clear to Giles that he could handle himself, which he must have believed he did. And even if Giles had have tried to dissuade Wood, it wouldn't have mattered. Wood was so determined he would have gone ahead and done it anyway. I don't think Wood deserved everything that was coming to him. He was left without a mother, he was allowed to feel the way he did.

I never said that Buffy made the "right" decision in shutting the door in Giles' face or, for that matter, in giving the heads-up for the removal of Spike's chip. Sometimes Buffy acts with her heart not her brain. Spike WAS a threat, you're absolutely right. He was volatile, unpredictable - you think Buffy cared? She wasn't about to let anything happen to him, regardless. This situation is no different then the situation with Dawn in S5. Buffy wasn't going to allow the chip to kill Spike or hurt him in any way. She did what she felt was necessary. Does it matter if she made the "right" decision? She made it, and it is ultimately her decision.

And so did Giles. You could replace the name Buffy with Giles here and it would also make a very good statement as to why Giles did what he did. He was thinking with his heart, not his head. He also did what he felt was necessary whether it was a mistake to or not. I'm not saying it was his decision, but I don't think it was Buffy's either. Just because she's the Slayer doesn't mean she gets to say who gets hurt, who is a threat, who dies, and expect everyone to go along with it. I do like this point here Joan, it actually made me realise that Buffy really and truly is Giles' slayer/daughter. 🙂

 

[Strawbeary]

Giles should feel guilty for tricking Buffy into "patrolling" with him when in reality, he was waiting for Wood to make his move on the unsuspecting Spike, whom was arguably her closest friend at the time.

Why? I mean, it wouldn't have been a very effective trap if he TOLD Buffy about it first. Was he supposed to announce his intention to kill Spike in front of everybody so they had time to react?

I understand where you are going with this, but I am confused as to how Buffy's relationship with Spike somehow changes the reality of what Giles' concerns were.

And, let's not forget how Giles didn't seem at all concerned for one minute that Wood might be in danger in his little "attempt" to bring down Spike. Giles only wanted Spike dead and out of the way, regardless of the cost. What was Wood thinking going and purposely triggering Spike's chip? Spike was ten times stronger then him. He was asking to get killed. The only reason Spike didn't kill Wood was because he knew it would upset Buffy. Wood deserved everything that was coming to him.

Why would Giles be concerned for Wood? Wood asked for such a confrontation, and got what he wanted out of it. Wood was a willing participant, actually... it was his idea to begin with. It's not as if a human had never killed a vampire before.

No one here, including myself, is suggesting that it was OOC for Giles to want Spike dead, or even to conspire with the vengeful Wood to avenge his mother's murder. The issue is the way Giles went about with the situation.

And what way was Giles supposed to go about doing it? It's not as if he did not mention to Buffy how he felt about it. Again, was he supposed to announce his intention to the entire world and make such a move even more difficult?

See, this is where I see deference to the Buffy character. We don't seem to be suggesting that what Giles was trying to do, specifically, was the issue, rather, the fact he didn't let Buffy talk him out of it was the problem.

Or to put it in a hypothetical way, if Giles had walked right up to Spike and tried to stake him, would we argue that he betrayed Buffy any less?

I never said that Buffy made the "right" decision in shutting the door in Giles' face or, for that matter, in giving the heads-up for the removal of Spike's chip. Sometimes Buffy acts with her heart not her brain.

Which, actually, are decisions I am fine with. Buffy was within her right to feel betrayed, just as I think Giles was within his right to act as he did. The beauty of a morally difficult, and gray, decision, is that there is an understandable reaction to both sides. At least for a neutral audience (ourselves, the viewer).

Spike WAS a threat, you're absolutely right. He was volatile, unpredictable - you think Buffy cared? She wasn't about to let anything happen to him, regardless.

So, if we are in agreement that Spike was the threat Giles thought he was and that Buffy was, perhaps, unreasonable about such... why does Giles need to be remorseful for his actions?

This situation is no different then the situation with Dawn in S5.

A situation which cost Buffy her life.

Buffy wasn't going to allow the chip to kill Spike or hurt him in any way. She did what she felt was necessary. Does it matter if she made the "right" decision? She made it, and it is ultimately her decision.

But it wasn't her decision. In the event of the chip, honestly, that was Spikes. Buffy assumed the decision because she could, not that it was something she had an inherent right to. Nor was letting Spike live her decision to make anymore than it was Giles.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Giles, Buffy and Spike.. not favourite subject of mine. But I think I understand Giles in that episode. Well my theory always was that he was shaken because of the Wood's story. He is Buffy's Watcher. We all saw his face in Nightmares when he saw Buffy's grave. He said "I failed". We all saw his face in The Gift when he was looking at her dead body. He know's that feeling when you loose the Slayer, when you loose someone who you care about, who is like a family mamber to you, who is like a daughter to you. He knew Buffy never choose to be like that, she always wanted to be a normal girl. And I think that was what really touched him. Wood lost his mother, Giles lost his daughter, and they were both slayers. Wood said he never wanted the Slayer, he wanted his mother.. and that was Gilese's deal too.. after some time Buffy was more like a daughter to him, maybe sometimes he forgot she is the Slayer. Wood wanted killer of his mother dead.. I mean I would to. Who wouldn't? And I'm sure Giles would wanted too see dead the vampire who killed Buffy, in the case she was killed. Maybe he made that decision to fast, maybe he should talk with Buffy about that first. But he didn't, and we all do some thing's without thinking about other stuff.

 

[Flannen]

Giles, Buffy and Spike.. not favourite subject of mine. But I think I understand Giles in that episode. Well my theory always was that he was shaken because of the Wood's story. He is Buffy's Watcher. We all saw his face in Nightmares when he saw Buffy's grave. He said "I failed". We all saw his face in The Gift when he was looking at her dead body. He know's that feeling when you loose the Slayer, when you loose someone who you care about, who is like a family mamber to you, who is like a daughter to you. He knew Buffy never choose to be like that, she always wanted to be a normal girl. And I think that was what really touched him. Wood lost his mother, Giles lost his daughter, and they were both slayers. Wood said he never wanted the Slayer, he wanted his mother.. and that was Gilese's deal too.. after some time Buffy was more like a daughter to him, maybe sometimes he forgot she is the Slayer. Wood wanted killer of his mother dead.. I mean I would to. Who wouldn't? And I'm sure Giles would wanted too see dead the vampire who killed Buffy, in the case she was killed. Maybe he made that decision to fast, maybe he should talk with Buffy about that first. But he didn't, and we all do some thing's without thinking about other stuff.

You've made a great point here, PrincessBuffy, that hadn't occurred to me: the fact that on some level Giles could relate to how Wood was feeling because his mother was a Slayer. I honestly had not thought about that before so thank you for that. Even though Wood was a Slayer's daughter and not her Watcher, I think it did shake Giles reminding of him how it makes a Watcher feel to have his Slayer killed.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

But it wasn't her decision. In the event of the chip, honestly, that was Spikes. Buffy assumed the decision because she could, not that it was something she had an inherent right to. Nor was letting Spike live her decision to make anymore than it was Giles.

I just don't think it should be anyone's choice, really, in the case of Spikes life. He has the right to his own existence. He attempted to leave, she asked him to stay. Giles should have respected that. And if he didn't, he should have talked with her about it.

 

[Emzzie]

Giles didn't go after Angel for what Angelus did (killing Jenny and torture him). Why would he go after Spike for what he did when soulless? Double standard maybe?

If he did know, I think it may be because it was not done to him but to Buffy. He could have a double standard, because I think he liked Angel better than Spike, but it's different when somebody is doing something to you, than doing it to somebody you love.

As for people saying that they are "sick" and "tired" of us defending Giles. We can defend Giles if we want. That is our opinion. I think he WAS a FATHER FIGURE, not an actual father, in her life. I'm not saying she needs to be "chained to him" or something. I meant that he did alot of Buffy, sacrificed for her, and was there for her through all her mess ups, because he looked at her like a daughter.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Xander and Giles were probably my favorite characters in the early seasons but by the end of the series I couldn't stand either one of them. It was mostly because of how they treated Spike, and NOT just because I love Spike (though I do). Spike really did love Buffy, and did a lot of good things even before he had a soul but they were just unrelenting jerks to him. I hate seeing people behave like that. Even if I didn't love Spike I'd feel the same. Xander's hate toward Angel early on was one of my first annoyances with him-his determination to kill Angel for things Angelus did, going behind Buffy's back with Faith, etc. But it was worse with Spike because they were totally awful and contemptuous towards him. It was really irritating to watch and by the time the series was over those 2 characters had completely alienated me with their horrible behavior.

 

[ubi4soft]

If he did know, I think it may be because it was not done to him but to Buffy. He could have a double standard, because I think he liked Angel better than Spike, but it's different when somebody is doing something to you, than doing it to somebody you love.

Obviously you consider attempted rape worst than killing Jenny. It's your choice.

 

[Flannen]

Obviously you consider attempted rape worst than killing Jenny. It's your choice.

I don't think that is what Emzzie is saying at all, it certainly isn't obvious.

I think she's saying something similar to what I said. That it was harder for Giles to accept something being done to Buffy than it was to him. Neither of us specified any particular incidents or suggested what you have above. It's part of the 'Giles as her father' thing. A parent feels more pain when their child is hurt than when they themselves are.

 

[ubi4soft]

Neither of us specified any particular incidents or suggested what you have above.

Look again 2 posts above.
He/she quoted me

Originally Posted by ubi4soft View Post
Giles didn't go after Angel for what Angelus did (killing Jenny and torture him). Why would he go after Spike for what he did when soulless? Double standard maybe?

and said

If he did know, I think it may be because it was not done to him but to Buffy. He could have a double standard, because I think he liked Angel better than Spike, but it's different when somebody is doing something to you, than doing it to somebody you love.

to which I've responded

Obviously you consider attempted rape worst than killing Jenny. It's your choice.

From this I concluded that "(killing Jenny and torture him)" re Giles are more acceptable to the poster than the attempted rape on Buffy.

Is it so much to ask for a little objectivity? To treat the characters in similar ways? Soulless Angel and Soulless Spike to be treat the same, souled Angel and souled Spike to be treat the same?

 

[white avenger]

There's no reason to think that Giles didn't care enough to think about Wood's well-being. Wood would have made it very clear to Giles that he could handle himself, which he must have believed he did.

To which I can truthfully say, in the spirit of the great Bill Cosby, "R-i-i-i-i-i-ght." Giles believed that Robin Wood, whom Giles had only known for a few days, and whom he had never seen in any kind of fight, would stand a snowball's chance in hell(mouth) against one of the four greatest fighters in the Buffyverse. Uh huh. Actually, Giles only knew that Robin was the son of a Slayer, raised by a Watcher, and had a grudge against Spike. He even questioned Wood's motives himself, and got the reply, "Does it matter?" Truthfully, no, it didn't matter to Giles, he just wanted Spike gone or dead, preferably the latter. He would probably have been just as eager to distract Buffy if Andrew had wanted to slay the "vampyre."

The subject of Giles' dislike for Buffy's two vampire lovers brings up another question, however. He seemed to like Riley during their time together, but just how would he have felt about Captain Cardboard if he had known about his weakness for vampire ladies of the night? (I'm assuming that only Spike and Buffy knew about that. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Buffy would make common knowledge)

 

[Flannen]

Is it so much to ask for a little objectivity? To treat the characters in similar ways? Soulless Angel and Soulless Spike to be treat the same, souled Angel and souled Spike to be treat the same?

I'm confused now, lol.

I don't think Emzzie was being subjective or treating them differently. She said that maybe Giles wasn't being particularly objective because she thinks he liked Angel more than Spike, which would explain his attitude towards Spike? That's how I took it as, anyhow. (I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth Emzzie!)

But I think all this is detracting a little bit from the subject of the thread, so:

I thought of another thing earlier which I think makes it all the more heartbreaking for me. Giles seemed to be one of the only ones who didn't think Buffy should have been resurrected, in the sense that maybe he knew she hadn't been sent to a hell dimension. He tried so hard, and looked so upset when Buffy couldn't 'attach' herself to anyone human. He was trying to reach out her to so much but she closed herself off. What happens in season seven I think brings that back to him a little bit, she's closed off to him again and this time for a more personal reason between the two of them as opposed to Buffy distancing herself from everyone.

I also think its a shame we didn't see a bit more from the other characters about how they felt about the tension between the two.

To which I can truthfully say, in the spirit of the great Bill Cosby, "R-i-i-i-i-i-ght." Giles believed that Robin Wood, whom Giles had only known for a few days, and whom he had never seen in any kind of fight, would stand a snowball's chance in hell(mouth) against one of the four greatest fighters in the Buffyverse. Uh huh. Actually, Giles only knew that Robin was the son of a Slayer, raised by a Watcher, and had a grudge against Spike. He even questioned Wood's motives himself, and got the reply, "Does it matter?" Truthfully, no, it didn't matter to Giles, he just wanted Spike gone or dead, preferably the latter. He would probably have been just as eager to distract Buffy if Andrew had wanted to slay the "vampyre."

What you've replied to, is still my opinion, even you think it's entirely ridiculous.

The subject of Giles' dislike for Buffy's two vampire lovers brings up another question, however. He seemed to like Riley during their time together, but just how would he have felt about Captain Cardboard if he had known about his weakness for vampire ladies of the night? (I'm assuming that only Spike and Buffy knew about that. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Buffy would make common knowledge)

I always kind of got the impression more people did know. I don't know why, just always have. I think he would have felt like everyone else did; upset that it had happened, that it had caused Buffy pain and had resulted in Riley leaving.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Xander and Giles were probably my favorite characters in the early seasons but by the end of the series I couldn't stand either one of them. It was mostly because of how they treated Spike, and NOT just because I love Spike (though I do). Spike really did love Buffy, and did a lot of good things even before he had a soul but they were just unrelenting jerks to him. I hate seeing people behave like that. Even if I didn't love Spike I'd feel the same. Xander's hate toward Angel early on was one of my first annoyances with him-his determination to kill Angel for things Angelus did, going behind Buffy's back with Faith, etc. But it was worse with Spike because they were totally awful and contemptuous towards him. It was really irritating to watch and by the time the series was over those 2 characters had completely alienated me with their horrible behavior.

I don't think that a character's choice to treat Spike badly is a good enough reason to dislike a character. I hear this a lot and it bugs me. Many of the people treated Spike "badly", including perhaps the worst perpetrator, Buffy herself. Yet, I don't hate Buffy.

True, Giles never did trust Spike - but give the guy a break! He was raised to be a Watcher, to hate all vampires. he hadn't fully embraced that new-fangled "grey" area that Buffy and her friends had when it came to their species. Sure, it upsets me that Giles conspired with Wood in an attempt to kill Spike, but I don't hate him for it. I wish he hadn't tricked Buffy. Spike can handle himself. I didn't think for one second that Wood would succeed in killing Spike - did you?

---------- Post added at 10:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 AM ----------

To which I can truthfully say, in the spirit of the great Bill Cosby, "R-i-i-i-i-i-ght." Giles believed that Robin Wood, whom Giles had only known for a few days, and whom he had never seen in any kind of fight, would stand a snowball's chance in hell(mouth) against one of the four greatest fighters in the Buffyverse. Uh huh. Actually, Giles only knew that Robin was the son of a Slayer, raised by a Watcher, and had a grudge against Spike. He even questioned Wood's motives himself, and got the reply, "Does it matter?" Truthfully, no, it didn't matter to Giles, he just wanted Spike gone or dead, preferably the latter. He would probably have been just as eager to distract Buffy if Andrew had wanted to slay the "vampyre."

I think I'm inclined to agree with you. I don't think Giles was concerned about Wood's welfare in this situation. He was presented with an opportunity (Wood) which would help him get rid of his biggest concern at the time - Spike. I'm not putting down Giles for this, but I think it's a stretch to say that Giles was at all concerned with Wood's safety. Perhaps Giles thought that Wood was a better fighter then he really was. Who knows. Bad call on Giles' part. Makes me wonder how he would have felt if Spike had killed Wood that day.

The subject of Giles' dislike for Buffy's two vampire lovers brings up another question, however. He seemed to like Riley during their time together, but just how would he have felt about Captain Cardboard if he had known about his weakness for vampire ladies of the night? (I'm assuming that only Spike and Buffy knew about that. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing that Buffy would make common knowledge)

I think Giles would have felt the same way about Riley as he does about Spike if he had known. This reminds me of what we were talking abut earlier - does Giles know about Spike's attempted rape?

---------- Post added at 10:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------

I always kind of got the impression more people did know. I don't know why, just always have. I think he would have felt like everyone else did; upset that it had happened, that it had caused Buffy pain and had resulted in Riley leaving.

There wasn't necessarily a reason for her to tell the others the "real" reason he left. It was private. She probably just told them it "wasn't working out" and that he left for a job, and left it at that. Buffy's good at skirting around the truth and avoiding the subject.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I'm not convinced Giles knew about the almost-attempted-rape. He always hated Spike; it's not much of a stretch that he would've wanted him dead on general principles more than he would've wanted Angel dead.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Agreed. We have no evidence that Giles was told about the attempted rape, only speculation that he was. Personally, I don't think Buffy told him. Perhaps Xander or Dawn did. Buffy felt it was a personal matter between her and Spike (hence her trusting him with Dawn after the fact) which suggests she had no desire for anyone else to know. She was upset when Dawn heard of the incident from Xander.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I don't think that a character's choice to treat Spike badly is a good enough reason to dislike a character. I hear this a lot and it bugs me. Many of the people treated Spike "badly", including perhaps the worst perpetrator, Buffy herself. Yet, I don't hate Buffy.

True, Giles never did trust Spike - but give the guy a break! He was raised to be a Watcher, to hate all vampires. he hadn't fully embraced that new-fangled "grey" area that Buffy and her friends had when it came to their species. Sure, it upsets me that Giles conspired with Wood in an attempt to kill Spike, but I don't hate him for it. I wish he hadn't tricked Buffy. Spike can handle himself. I didn't think for one second that Wood would succeed in killing Spike - did you?

No, of course not 🙂 I knew he wouldn't actually succeed in killing Spike.

Whether it's "good enough" reason or not, this is how I feel. though I never said I hated them-just that I didn't like them anymore and they got on my nerves. It's not like I made the decision for them to annoy me; they just did. And in season 5 Buffy being really mean to Spike after she knew how he felt about her got on my nerves too-just not as much, because I don't think she really got it at that point. I don't think she really understood that Spike was for real until she played at being the Buffy Bot to find out if he'd spilled about Dawn to Glory.

 

[white avenger]

I'm confused now, lol.


Giles seemed to be one of the only ones who didn't think Buffy should have been resurrected, in the sense that maybe he knew she hadn't been sent to a hell dimension.

I got the impression that Giles was more upset with Willow for invoking magic that she wasn't capable of handling than that he had any knowledge, or even suspicion, as to exactly where Buffy had gone. Certainly Giles loved Buffy, no one can really doubt that, but he was much more of a realist than any of the others. His Slayer was gone, and he had done all that he could to assure that Xander, Willow, and Anya could maintain and operate the Buffy Bot well enough to patrol the hellmouth to some degree. His job there was done. Long done, if you consider the fact that, as of Season 5, he was re-hired by the Council, at Buffy's insistence, to train and support her as regards to her job guarding the hellmouth.

 

[Flannen]

There wasn't necessarily a reason for her to tell the others the "real" reason he left. It was private. She probably just told them it "wasn't working out" and that he left for a job, and left it at that. Buffy's good at skirting around the truth and avoiding the subject.

True, but I also don't think there's no reason why she wouldn't. Willow and Xander were her best friends so even the embarrassment of what Riley did wouldn't necessarily pose as huge a problem. Like I said, it's just an impression I get.

Regarding Giles and Wood, I still think that it was to do with Wood's insistence he was capable and determined enough. I mean he 'let' Willow, Xander etc go and help Buffy all through the show so he wouldn't have exactly just thought because he was human he wouldn't have been able to. On a good day, maybe he could have 😉

I got the impression that Giles was more upset with Willow for invoking magic that she wasn't capable of handling than that he had any knowledge, or even suspicion, as to exactly where Buffy had gone. Certainly Giles loved Buffy, no one can really doubt that, but he was much more of a realist than any of the others. His Slayer was gone, and he had done all that he could to assure that Xander, Willow, and Anya could maintain and operate the Buffy Bot well enough to patrol the hellmouth to some degree. His job there was done. Long done, if you consider the fact that, as of Season 5, he was re-hired by the Council, at Buffy's insistence, to train and support her as regards to her job guarding the hellmouth.

I see what you're saying, but for me there's more to it. As much as he was more likely to be able to be accept what had happened, I think if he really thought Buffy was going to be spending eternity in a hell dimension, he wouldn't have been as angry as he was. Again, it's just a feeling I get when I watch it the play out. 🙂

 

[Emzzie]

Obviously you consider attempted rape worst than killing Jenny. It's your choice.

Excuse me? I NEVER said that in my post. How dare you assume that. My aunt was just recently murdered and a good friend of mine was molested as a child, and therefore I take extreame offense to that. I said that maybe Giles decided to because it was hurting Buffy, not just him and in the case with Jenny, it was to only hurt him. I never said or implied that I though attempted rape was worse than killing Jenny.

As for the other one, I was AGREEING with you. I said that yes, he may have double standards because I think that Giles liked Angel more than Spike. I also think he trusted Angel more than Spike. How is that being objective? It was just an observation.

 

[white avenger]

I see what you're saying, but for me there's more to it. As much as he was more likely to be able to be accept what had happened, I think if he really thought Buffy was going to be spending eternity in a hell dimension, he wouldn't have been as angry as he was. Again, it's just a feeling I get when I watch it the play out. 🙂

Giles was angry with Willow for using dark magic. I think that he would have considered it the equivalent of having a child play with matches in a gunpowder factory. Sure, she managed to accomplish what she intended to do, but not without cost. Remember the rider?

I think that Giles HOPED that Buffy's spirit was in a better place, but in the end he had accepted the fact that, even if she had ended up in some sort of hell, in the big picture, it didn't really matter as much as the results of her sacrifice. The world was safe one more time. The Slayer had done her duty. It was the mission that counted, and she had accomplished her mission. Interfering with her fate at that point would have been trying to alter what he considered to be the natural order of things, which could have, and eventually did, result in a situation even more dire than what Glory threatened. Certainly, Giles would have WANTED to bring Buffy back, or at least be sure of where she actually was, but in the end, he would have fulfilled his duty, not surrendered to his emotions.