Emzzie, I am extremely sorry for what happened to your family and your friend. After the deaths in my family I couldn't do more than cry, express regrets for not doing something better and look for justice. Nothing could compensate the lost lives.
Giles and Buffy: Season Seven
- Thread starter Flannen
- Start date
that took me a little off gaurd. I thought we were gonna get into a big 'ol brawl. Well, of course it is still painful for her, but it was a very long time ago and she is a lively hyper fun person. As for my aunt, yes I know what you mean. It was very painful. Funny thing, they were going down to ottawa to do my uncle's cancer treatment and she was the one that ended up dying in the robbery. I say it's funny because well as much as it saddens me to admitt it, we all expected him to go first. 🙁
Epp, that made me all sad. Well I'm glad we prevented a full on battle because I was sharpening my buffyverse fighting skills. 😉
Whew. Ok, everybody get on with talking about Giles and Buffy! hehe 😀
Joan the Vampire Slayer
:)
fly on the wall
you have but-face.
First I just want to say that this is an interesting topic, and the deterioration of Buffy and Giles' relationship has always been heartbreaking to me. I can deal with whiny Potentials and the lame Big Bad and everything else that happens in S7, but this is truly the hardest part for me to watch.
I do think most people, including Buffy, are too hard on Giles for what he did.
Sure, Buffy could handle herself. Sure, she could dust Spike in an instant if she had to. But the problem was, she didn't think she had to. She wouldn't have dusted him, she made that very clear.
In my opinion, both Giles' and Buffy's actions were clouded by emotion. Buffy didn't want to kill Spike because he had become a trusted ally to her, because she cared about him, because she wasn't ready to lose him. And Giles betrayed Buffy because he was afraid, he wanted to protect their cause, I really believe he thought he was doing the right thing. Neither of them were right or wrong; they were both doing what they felt was best. "Felt" is the operative word here.
You seem to be saying here that Giles isn't Buffy's father because he has betrayed her. I didn't know that fathers, or father figures, were perfect and could do no wrong. Just because Giles was willing to go behind Buffy's back "for the greater good" does NOT mean he was less of a father to her. I don't think Giles got pleasure from lying to Buffy in any of these instances.
As I said, we have no evidence to suggest Giles was giddy about his decision. Personally, I think we know Giles well enough by S7 to assume that he hated what he was doing, hated betraying Buffy's trust, but he was doing what he thought he needed to do. And I can't blame him for that, not because I fear change, but because if I were Giles, I would have probably done the exact same thing. If the future of the world was contained in one house, and an out-of-control serial killer was in the basement of that house, threatening to destroy the entire cause...yeah, I'd probably try to get him killed, too. On top of that, I probably wouldn't apologize for doing it either.
I also don't think the fact that Giles probably would have killed Dawn in "The Gift" can be used as grounds for his betrayal. Yes, he probably would have killed her to SAVE THE WORLD AND EVERYONE HE LOVES. That's not the same kind of betrayal as either of the other two examples.
Parents betray their kids all the time. They lie in order to protect the child or do what's best for them. They make mistakes. They do things they're not proud of. They're human. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be forgiven.
And re: Giles' upset about Buffy being resurrected (just because it's an interesting topic), I also got the feeling that he knew more than the Scoobies. Maybe he didn't know for certain that Buffy had been in Heaven, but I think he suspected there was more to it. He at least seemed to feel that where Buffy had been and what she'd gone through wasn't so black-and-white and obvious as the Scoobies believed. I get this feeling especially from the scene where he says he's not entirely sure Buffy has come back all right. Sure, he might just be saying it because she'd been in a Hell dimension, but I don't know. Giles was always more perceptive to Buffy's feelings than the others.
Of course, a large chunk of why he was angry was because Willow was toying with extremely dark and powerful forces. That much is very true.
I do think most people, including Buffy, are too hard on Giles for what he did.
Sure, Buffy could handle herself. Sure, she could dust Spike in an instant if she had to. But the problem was, she didn't think she had to. She wouldn't have dusted him, she made that very clear.
In my opinion, both Giles' and Buffy's actions were clouded by emotion. Buffy didn't want to kill Spike because he had become a trusted ally to her, because she cared about him, because she wasn't ready to lose him. And Giles betrayed Buffy because he was afraid, he wanted to protect their cause, I really believe he thought he was doing the right thing. Neither of them were right or wrong; they were both doing what they felt was best. "Felt" is the operative word here.
You seem to be saying here that Giles isn't Buffy's father because he has betrayed her. I didn't know that fathers, or father figures, were perfect and could do no wrong. Just because Giles was willing to go behind Buffy's back "for the greater good" does NOT mean he was less of a father to her. I don't think Giles got pleasure from lying to Buffy in any of these instances.
And why would we like Buffy growing distant from the only father she's really known, from the only parent she has left?
As I said, we have no evidence to suggest Giles was giddy about his decision. Personally, I think we know Giles well enough by S7 to assume that he hated what he was doing, hated betraying Buffy's trust, but he was doing what he thought he needed to do. And I can't blame him for that, not because I fear change, but because if I were Giles, I would have probably done the exact same thing. If the future of the world was contained in one house, and an out-of-control serial killer was in the basement of that house, threatening to destroy the entire cause...yeah, I'd probably try to get him killed, too. On top of that, I probably wouldn't apologize for doing it either.
I also don't think the fact that Giles probably would have killed Dawn in "The Gift" can be used as grounds for his betrayal. Yes, he probably would have killed her to SAVE THE WORLD AND EVERYONE HE LOVES. That's not the same kind of betrayal as either of the other two examples.
Parents betray their kids all the time. They lie in order to protect the child or do what's best for them. They make mistakes. They do things they're not proud of. They're human. This doesn't mean they shouldn't be forgiven.
And re: Giles' upset about Buffy being resurrected (just because it's an interesting topic), I also got the feeling that he knew more than the Scoobies. Maybe he didn't know for certain that Buffy had been in Heaven, but I think he suspected there was more to it. He at least seemed to feel that where Buffy had been and what she'd gone through wasn't so black-and-white and obvious as the Scoobies believed. I get this feeling especially from the scene where he says he's not entirely sure Buffy has come back all right. Sure, he might just be saying it because she'd been in a Hell dimension, but I don't know. Giles was always more perceptive to Buffy's feelings than the others.
Of course, a large chunk of why he was angry was because Willow was toying with extremely dark and powerful forces. That much is very true.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Great post.
There were hints about Giles's suspicion of Spike before Lies My Parents Told Me. In First Date, we see that Giles is not okay with Spike being un-chipped, because The First is still controlling Spike. Then Andrew had revealed that The First had bigger plans for Spike, and Giles stared warily at Spike.
Little hints, but they were still there.
What I find interesting is Spike's reaction to being chained. He had said in The Killer in Me that he wanted to be chained until The First's effect on him goes away. Why does he want to be unchained now? Is it just because Giles wanted him to be chained? And Buffy, oh, so readily unchains him. I can perfectly understand why Giles chose Wood's side. This is one of the moments where I believe that Buffy is in love with Spike and is blinded by that love.
I can't see it happening. Maybe in S6, but not in S7. When Giles came back, Xander was already a changed man. He had more faith in Buffy's trust in Spike than Dawn, Anya and Willow combined, just watch Never Leave Me and you'll see how much Xander's view on Spike has changed.
Little hints, but they were still there.
What I find interesting is Spike's reaction to being chained. He had said in The Killer in Me that he wanted to be chained until The First's effect on him goes away. Why does he want to be unchained now? Is it just because Giles wanted him to be chained? And Buffy, oh, so readily unchains him. I can perfectly understand why Giles chose Wood's side. This is one of the moments where I believe that Buffy is in love with Spike and is blinded by that love.
I can't see it happening. Maybe in S6, but not in S7. When Giles came back, Xander was already a changed man. He had more faith in Buffy's trust in Spike than Dawn, Anya and Willow combined, just watch Never Leave Me and you'll see how much Xander's view on Spike has changed.
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
YES. Great point, sosalola. It's pretty obvious, as Giles points out, that her feelings for him have clouded her judgment. It's totally beyond me that some fans can argue that Buffy did not love Spike in this season. Her actions very clearly point towards that fact.
Anyway.
I hate that scoffing look Spike gives Giles as he walks up the stairs after Buffy unchains him. Was that really necessary? It makes Spike look childish.
thevikingsgirl
Scooby
How are those hints that Giles knew about the attempted rape? He knew about Spike killing people under the First's influence. That explains his not being okay with Spike being unchipped. I don't see that as any indication that he knew about the attempted rape.
---------- Post added at 08:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:06 AM ----------
Not really out of character for Spike though. No one ever accused him of being the King of Maturity.
tvnerdgirl
Townie
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2009
- Messages
- 83
Going to play devil's advocate just for a bit and say that I can partly understand why Buffy reacted the way she did....
Giles betrayed her. His betrayal (if she hadn't figured it out in time) would not only have taken someone from her that she cared about (and was maybe even growing to love), but it also undermined her authority as the leader. From the second Giles set foot into the Summers house in season seven, he declared Buffy to be a 'General'...she was the chief they would have to fall behind to fight the coming war. They put their trust in her and of all people, Buffy had most put her trust in Giles. He then goes behind her back and tries to take out a member of the team because he felt her judgement was compromised.
Whether it was, or wasn't it was unquestionably the wrong way to handle it. Now it makes Buffy look weak in front of everyone else and leaves the field open for others to question her judgement as well.
Then there's the parental aspect of it. Buffy has looked up to Giles and trusted him (literally) with her life time and time again. It's no secret they were playing at a father/daughter relationship between them in the past. The reason Buffy has looked to Giles in that way is because her own father has been absent from her life for years....no doubt she felt betrayed and abandoned when he left.
And this isn't first time Giles has decieved her either. On her 18th birthday, Giles allowed the council to put her through the Cruciamentum test...he hypnotised her and injected her. He weakened her and could have gotten her killed. Yes, he owned up to it eventually but it still doesn't change the fact that he betrayed her trust once already and decieved her.
Then he abandoned her in season 6 presumably 'for her own good' when she felt she needed him the most. Whether this was the right choice or not doesn't really matter when you see it from Buffy's perspective. She had just come back from complete and total peace...she needed him more than ever and just like her real father, he left her when she was most in need of guidance.
So in season 7 when he waltzes back in, declares her a General and then undermines her choices and decisions it's no wonder she feels betrayed and hurt. When she slept with Angel and he turned evil one of my favourite conversations between the two of them was the scene in Giles' car when he tells her that he thinks she made poor choices, and he could say 'I told you so' but he wasn't going to. Instead all he would do was support her, and stand by her no matter what. She got no such support when it came to Spike. It was like he didn't trust her enough to give her the benefit of the doubt.
I don't think she is entirely blameless here either...it breaks my heart that they never do get beyond this, and go back to the relationship they had before, but really isn't that what growing up means? You could tell she still cared for Giles and still respected him, but she no longer needs him to tell her what to do.
Just my thoughts.
Giles betrayed her. His betrayal (if she hadn't figured it out in time) would not only have taken someone from her that she cared about (and was maybe even growing to love), but it also undermined her authority as the leader. From the second Giles set foot into the Summers house in season seven, he declared Buffy to be a 'General'...she was the chief they would have to fall behind to fight the coming war. They put their trust in her and of all people, Buffy had most put her trust in Giles. He then goes behind her back and tries to take out a member of the team because he felt her judgement was compromised.
Whether it was, or wasn't it was unquestionably the wrong way to handle it. Now it makes Buffy look weak in front of everyone else and leaves the field open for others to question her judgement as well.
Then there's the parental aspect of it. Buffy has looked up to Giles and trusted him (literally) with her life time and time again. It's no secret they were playing at a father/daughter relationship between them in the past. The reason Buffy has looked to Giles in that way is because her own father has been absent from her life for years....no doubt she felt betrayed and abandoned when he left.
And this isn't first time Giles has decieved her either. On her 18th birthday, Giles allowed the council to put her through the Cruciamentum test...he hypnotised her and injected her. He weakened her and could have gotten her killed. Yes, he owned up to it eventually but it still doesn't change the fact that he betrayed her trust once already and decieved her.
Then he abandoned her in season 6 presumably 'for her own good' when she felt she needed him the most. Whether this was the right choice or not doesn't really matter when you see it from Buffy's perspective. She had just come back from complete and total peace...she needed him more than ever and just like her real father, he left her when she was most in need of guidance.
So in season 7 when he waltzes back in, declares her a General and then undermines her choices and decisions it's no wonder she feels betrayed and hurt. When she slept with Angel and he turned evil one of my favourite conversations between the two of them was the scene in Giles' car when he tells her that he thinks she made poor choices, and he could say 'I told you so' but he wasn't going to. Instead all he would do was support her, and stand by her no matter what. She got no such support when it came to Spike. It was like he didn't trust her enough to give her the benefit of the doubt.
I don't think she is entirely blameless here either...it breaks my heart that they never do get beyond this, and go back to the relationship they had before, but really isn't that what growing up means? You could tell she still cared for Giles and still respected him, but she no longer needs him to tell her what to do.
Just my thoughts.
T
thevikingsgirl
[No message]
I wasn't talking about the attempted rape. But I guess it's my fault I wasn't clear. I'm talking about Giles fearing that Spike may get controlled by the First again -seeing as the First said it had plans for Spike and Giles' wary stare. I'm talking against those who think that Giles did what he did because he's anti-Spuffy.
IMO, no one knows about the attempted rape but Buffy, Spike, Xander and Dawn. We haven't been shown or gotten any hint that other characters knew.
thevikingsgirl
Scooby
Gotcha-then I agree 🙂 Though I do think Giles was anti-Spuffy I don't think that was why he wanted him dead.
The problem I have with Buffy being the 'leader' is that she thought that meant she was the only who had any say. All of those people in that house were giving their lives to help her fight when they didn't have to. And I think this is one of the only seasons when Buffy doesn't, and should have, gone out of her way to make them feel what they were doing was worthwhile. It was at this time that they most needed Buffy to take a step back, and actually make them feel their opinions were valid and that they were a group. They should have felt like they were able to question her judgement sometimes. Maybe if she had, Giles wouldn't have felt the need to go behind her back.
However, I do agree, it was absolutely the wrong way to deal with it. Yet, she shouldn't have lorded it over him for the rest of the season.
Aw, I feel that's not too fair on Giles. What about Giles' perspective? As far as he was concerned, a lot of the reason why he felt he needed to leave was because Buffy was refusing to take control of her own situation leaving it all to him. I really don't think it's fair to put Giles on the same level as her real father.
This is another thing I have a problem with, not your argument but the aspect you've addressed. Giles realised long before Buffy that she didn't need him to tell her what to do any more. But when Giles tried to tell her that, she acted completely irrationally and flipped out. To me, that just isn't/wasn't fair. While I agree that she still cared for him, I don't think she respected him. It's that lack of respect I find the most upsetting.
BillyidolwannaB
Scooby
I agree with the OP. Giles was basically Buffys dad, and Willow and Xander to an extent. It was sad to see how Buffy treated him in s7, like what Giles done in Lmptm wasn't 'that bad.
white avenger
white avenger
First off, and we've had this argument almost as often as the Spuffy/Bangel debate lately, they were in a war in Season 7, and wars are not fought by committee action. There is a leader, who may or may not have advisers, whose advise he may or may not choose to take, who makes the final decisions. Period. The troops either follow orders willingly, or they follow orders reluctantly, but the bottom line is, they follow orders, even if it means that they have to die in order for the war to be fought effectively and ultimately won. To do otherwise is mutiny, and mutiny in time of war is punishable by death.
Are we all in agreement that there was a war being fought on the hellmouth in Season 7? If so, then this discussion doesn't have to go any further.
BillyidolwannaB
Scooby
I dont think the potentials or scoobies cared about mutiny. Seeing as they were in control and had a choice. Buffys a leader but its not like its official.
white avenger
white avenger
Buffy was seen as and acknowledged as being the leader and the one in charge just as long as she took all of the risks, faced all of the dangers, fought all of the demons and ubervamps basically all alone except for Spike, with occasional help from Xander. Once the Potentials started having to pull their own weight, take some of the risk, and face some of the bad guys themselves, they wanted to switch over to democratic rule, or, at least that's what they thought that they would be getting once Faith took over. Unfortunately for the Potentials, Faith didn't let them have nearly the amount of freedom that they expected, and, once more, when they had to share the load, the Potentials started crying for a new leader once more. I wonder who would have been the next boss if Buffy hadn't returned.
Washburne
Protector of the key.
Good thing no one wants me in a war then. I could never do that. I'm not saying you should argue about every small things but some things you shouldn't do no matter who says it.
In theory the potentials might be the troops and Buffy the leader but that wasn't how things were if you want to talk warterms. And according to your theory all the potentials and the advicers (Giles, Xander and Willow) should be killed for not following order? Good luck winning that war... Throwing Buffy out wasn't the right thing to do but there's a lot of middle ground.
Probably Kennedy if Willow didn't step up.
I agree with TK regarding the war/army side of things. I suppose they were some kind of army, and they were obviously heading into a battle.
I guess the Potentials were the 'troops' as they were, however loosely, kind of destined to have been involved, or at least could have been. But they didn't ask for it, they didn't ask to be in that battle. I'm not surprised they kept changing their minds, they quite rightly wanted someone who could protect them. That is, after all what they want to went to Sunnydale for; protection. And as for Xander, Giles and Willow, they weren't destined to do anything. They weren't like a proper army, they didn't have to follow orders blindly. They had their own share of seven years experience, at least one summer of it without their 'leader', they weren't that out of line to question.
But this is moving away from Buffy and Giles. In the past finale battles they had, Giles was always that kind of 'non physical' leader, in some ways. I kind of missed seeing him in that role. He'd proved himself so much, that I think he kind of deserved, as did Willow and Xander, some kind of say.
I'm going to have to rewatch season seven again to start feeling a bit kinder towards after starting this thread, lol. 😉
I guess the Potentials were the 'troops' as they were, however loosely, kind of destined to have been involved, or at least could have been. But they didn't ask for it, they didn't ask to be in that battle. I'm not surprised they kept changing their minds, they quite rightly wanted someone who could protect them. That is, after all what they want to went to Sunnydale for; protection. And as for Xander, Giles and Willow, they weren't destined to do anything. They weren't like a proper army, they didn't have to follow orders blindly. They had their own share of seven years experience, at least one summer of it without their 'leader', they weren't that out of line to question.
But this is moving away from Buffy and Giles. In the past finale battles they had, Giles was always that kind of 'non physical' leader, in some ways. I kind of missed seeing him in that role. He'd proved himself so much, that I think he kind of deserved, as did Willow and Xander, some kind of say.
I'm going to have to rewatch season seven again to start feeling a bit kinder towards after starting this thread, lol. 😉