Giles in "Lies My Parents Told me"

[Kana]

It didn't really matter WHY Buffy needed Spike, whether it was because of his admittedly superior fighting skills, she really did love him, she liked his poetry, or they sat late into the night playing Old Maids. The fact was that she believed Spike was necessary to somehow aid her in her fight. Giles had no right to take it upon himself, especially at the urging of Robin Wood, to plot the destruction of the one person Buffy trusted to guard her back, indeed the only one really capable of doing so.

I agree that it wasn't Giles place back Wood in a scheme that was dangerous for everyone involved but I don't necessarily agree it was right for Buffy to assume everything was going to be ok. As far as Giles was concerned it was important why Buffy needed him because he thought it was clouding her judgement. Spike was he greatest asset but with the trigger he was also the biggest liability.

Buffy needed backup of a type that Giles, Xander, or Willow COULD NOT provide. They simply weren't strong enough. Spike was. As long as Buffy kept her eye on him, which she did most of the time, (the rest of the time he seemed to be voluntarily chained away in the basement) she could handle him.

Well that was part of the problem, Spike needed dealing with, the puts in the liability section a little as well and what if Spike managed to kill Buffy?

On the other hand, who could she trust to protect the gang if something were to happen to her? Remember, all of this was before Faith showed up. Buffy and Spike were the only super powered fighters there. By the time Faith arrived, the issue was pretty much settled.

Yes but this was done luck somewhat and issues were definitely not settled as a result of what happened (definitely blaming Giles there as well.)

The trigger was a problem but I don't believe either of them went about it the right way. Buffy should have pushed harder or found a different way to deal with Spike's trigger. Giles should make up his mind about Buffy being in charge. If they want her in charge, ok! But saying you need to lead then go behind her back like that is not only non sensical and hypocrtical, it's dangerous.

 

[RogueHunter]

Giles was doing what he thought was best and logical. Buffy was following her gut, a concept Giles never quite understood.

 

[LIENDINGES]

I agree with white avenger, Spike was their strongest warrior. He was the one who could do the job and buffy knew that.

 

[sosa lola]

I think Giles was upset because Buffy wasn't dealing with Spike's trigger. Giles was the only one who caught Andrew's "The First has plans for Spike later." That sentence had Giles thinking, all Giles wanted was for Spike to be chained, so when The First triggers him, everybody will be safe. Buffy wasn't having that and it made Giles question her judgement.

I support Giles' concerns, but I don't support him going behind Buffy's back to kill Spike, even though Buffy didn't seem to listen to a word Giles was saying about the matter.

 

[Kana]

I think Giles was upset because Buffy wasn't dealing with Spike's trigger. Giles was the only one who caught Andrew's "The First has plans for Spike later." That sentence had Giles thinking, all Giles wanted was for Spike to be chained, so when The First triggers him, everybody will be safe. Buffy wasn't having that and it made Giles question her judgement.

I support Giles' concerns, but I don't support him going behind Buffy's back to kill Spike, even though Buffy didn't seem to listen to a word Giles was saying about the matter.

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. When I say Spike needed dealing with, I didn't mean he should be killed but closing your eyes and hoping for the best isn't really the best idea either. Mind you if, Spike is chained up he wouldn't be an asset anymore either.

 

[sosa lola]

Mind you if, Spike is chained up he wouldn't be an asset anymore either.

I don't think Giles meant to chain him up forever. He wanted to chain him up until they find a way to get rid of that trigger.

 

[bob6666]

one they could have one with out spike angel would have worn the amalut.

giles knowagale about demon or anya, willow migic xander has a way of saveing the day, dawn as the key, spike tirigger could have let him kill any one of these and you could easily write the story where one of these people was the only reason the world was saved. giles belive he was right.

buffy did kill angel to save the world, but not to save a lot of people, she let spike kill period.... there was a joke by anya spike could slughter a bus for of people and she would not kill him.... that was a joke but if you watch the show how time we people kill becouse of him. buffy does not think right when it is some one she care about. buffy maybe the best fighter, is she the brains

 

[LadyLavinia]

The problem is that Giles had conspired with Wood to have Spike killed. He tried the amulet once. When it did not completely work, Giles decided to resort to conspiracy to murder. And he tricked Buffy in the process, to achieve his goal. Despite his "intent", I had a lot of problems with his actions. And I also disliked him for failing to realize that he had betrayed Buffy in one of the worst ways possible.


Why should Giles be excused for his actions? Because he was Buffy's "authority figure"? Oh please! The problem with Giles was in twofold - one, he wanted to continue the Watcher/Slayer relationship, despite the fact that Buffy had outgrown it by the time he had returned to California in S7; and two, he had thrusted the role of leadership upon Buffy's shoulders and criticized her for failing to live up to his expectations . . . despite the fact that he had never taught her how to be a leader. Only a killer.


I have no sympathy for the man.

 

[sosa lola]

Like someone said in another forum:

"If it weren't for Giles, Spike would have never made it to 'Chosen.' If you remember Giles is the only one to make any efforts to de-trigger Spike from the First's control. It is he or went searching for the magical stone, and it was he who brought it to Sunnydale which gave Spike the opportunity to de-trigger himself. Buffy made no efforts, the potentials and Anya were right to be angry with her that she let Spike stay in their home whilst he could be triggered to attack any of them at any moment."

 

[Angelic Slayer]

I definitely can't argue that Giles' behaviour in this episode really was "too tough" on Buffy. And the fact that he went behind HER back to get rid of Spike I thought, at the time, was terribly out of character. He always seemed like a reasonably straight-forward character with a good head on his shoulders, and as the father figure of the show he always seemed to be setting an example for the others-- trying to show maturity.

But then, when I thought about it, he is human.

I agree with a few posters in that he saw Spike as a threat and knew that Buffy would only "enable" him more and more. In prior seasons Giles and Spike didn't get along, but I think that the fact that he was "neutered" was always a comfort factor for Giles. He really believed that the chip was the only thing keeping Spike from going back to old ways. And given how much detailed knowledge he WOULD have about Spike's past (and his own memories of it, for that matter), I can see why he would be wary.

I think that the situation also may have struck a chord because of what happened in Season 2 with Angel. Although it was years before, we have to keep in mind that he lost someone he loved very much in a very cruel and unexpected manner. And on top of it, he was tortured almost to death by a vampire that Buffy had trusted (and, in his eyes, used poor judgement with). That's bound to stick with someone. Giles had to forgive (or at least put aside his problems with) Angel because he was "all better" once he had a soul again, and Angel did "the right thing" by removing the threat of Angelus by leaving Sunnydale.

Spike left, then came back.

Here is yet another vampire whom Buffy has had a relationship with, trusted to some degree, and has decided that he is safe-- just like Angel was once upon a time. Rather than sleeping with Spike and creating a muderer (as was the case with Angel), she instead got rid of the ONE FACTOR that Giles always trusted would keep him in line-- the only thing keeping Spike from going the same way Angel did, in Giles' eyes. So rather than letting anything like Angelus happen again, Giles felt it was best to intervene where Buffy had proved unable to in the past. To "remove" the risk before Spike's killing spree could be triggered, which is a fairly logical soloution (if you look at it objectively).

He couldn't save Jenny or himself, but he would be able to save others from the fate he met 5 years prior.

I know that they were different situations, but I still think that there are enough similarities to allow Giles to at least be influenced by the past. Again, that and his lack of trust for Spike and Wood's prying I think all added in to a decision that seemed very out of character. A side of Giles that frankly we viewers were just not used to seeing.

That's my take on it anyway, for what it's worth 🙂

 

[LadyLavinia]

"If it weren't for Giles, Spike would have never made it to 'Chosen.'

Perhaps in S4, but in later seasons . . . Buffy deserved the credit, not Giles. So did Spike. Sorry, but I refuse to jump on the Rupert Giles Appreciation bandwagon.


[QUOTEI know that they were different situations, but I still think that there are enough similarities to allow Giles to at least be influenced by the past. Again, that and his lack of trust for Spike and Wood's prying I think all added in to a decision that seemed very out of character. A side of Giles that frankly we viewers were just not used to seeing.[/QUOTE]

Must I bring up "Helpless"? It may not have the same kind of betrayal, but Giles betrayed Buffy all the same. In the end, his decision in this episode was NOT out of character.

 

[sosa lola]

Did you finish my post? If Giles wasn't trying to find ways to de-trigger Spike, he would have still been triggered and therefore a dangerous toy for The First to manipulate.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Did you finish my post? If Giles wasn't trying to find ways to de-trigger Spike, he would have still been triggered and therefore a dangerous toy for The First to manipulate.

Setting him up to be murdered by Wood? That was Giles' idea of finding another way to de-trigger Spike? Why didn't Giles simply try again? Why allow himself to be drawn into a murder plot that included deceiving Buffy?

 

[palabravampiress]

I read a fanfic at All About Spike (At Arm's Reach By Wolfling) that proposed a neat theory on this. In that fic, at least part of the underlying reason for Giles' season 7 habit of alienating everyone in more or less out-of-character ways was that he was making a concerted (if not wholly conscious) effort to distance himself emotionally.

Giles is always the one who makes the hard, morally gray choices. He thought he'd need to make some this time, too. He also thought he might lose Buffy again -- and maybe more of the scoobies, or even the girls that were under his protection. He loved these people, but saving the world had to come first. In the story, he was intentionally distancing himself from the group so that he would be prepared to make the hard decisions -- the cool, rational decision -- when the time came. At least part of his motivation for going about things with Spike the way he did, then, was to intentionally create a rift between himself and Buffy. In the story, it is suggested that he hoped (sort of against the odds, but aren't most hopes?) that if he and Buffy were on the outs and she died again, it wouldn't hurt as much this time as it had the first time around.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I'm convinced Giles intentions were honourable.
I am also convinced that he was saving Buffy from a decision she failed to msake the first time around.

Buffy let Angelus live even though she knew what he was capable of. Giles lost Jenny because of that inability to fight and kill Angelus.

Spike was a walking timebomb, he tried to de-trigger him and it failed. Should he have tried more, I won't argue yes or no, but I will say he was the ONLY one who gave it a shot.

Giles made a decision and in my opinion he made the correct one.

The First could have triggered Spike at any time, causing numerous deaths and Giles, rightly, had to question whether Buffy would kill Spike if she needed to.

If you were Giles, which position would you rather be in?
The 'it had to be done Buffy, I am sorry' while having a door slammed in your face or the 'I told you so' while standing over the bodies of numerous potentials and maybe one or two of the scoobies?

It is just lucky for Spike, Buffy and the 'world' that Giles/Woods plan backfired and this actually de-triggered him.
No one could have guessed that would happen of indeed what would happen in the final fight.

 

[RogueHunter]

The only problem i have with Giles decision is that since the First was using Spike because he was powerful and was trying to force the scoobies to eliminate a powerful ally.

Giles should have seen that since the First wanted Spike so badly, it should have been more reason to eliminate the trigger instead of Spike himself.

 

[Vampmogs2]

I don't agree with Giles going behind Buffy's back but in all honesty, she did kind of bring those kind of methods on herself. We first saw Giles try and communicate his concerns down in the basement during that episode and Buffy angrily cut him off saying "don't." She didn't want to hear what he had to say because she was blinded by her feelings, and in the end Giles turned to less honourable methods.

Buffy was rather bad when it came to Spike in season seven. Whilst she was right in saying that he can be a good man, she didn't address the issue of Spike's trigger from 'Never Leave Me' until 'Lies My Parents Told Me.' The First tells Andrew in 'First Date' that "it isn't time for Spike yet" and even Spike realises he should get out of town and out of harms way. Yet, because Buffy isn't emotionally ready enough for him to leave she tells him he must stay, even if it means putting other's lives in jeopardy. In particular the lives of the girls sent to her for protection in the first place. She was being very reckless.

I think credit should be given to Buffy, Spike *and* Giles for what Spike was able to do in 'Chosen.' Buffy believed in him, Spike gave up his life, and if it weren't for Giles Spike would have never been de-triggered in the first place. Whilst Buffy was leading the 'Spike Can Be A Good Man Campaign' Giles was the only one who made any efforts to fix the trigger the First had on him. It was Giles who brought the magical stone to Sunnydale that enabled Spike to go into his subconscious and find the root of the problem. So Giles was also doing the right thing, whilst Buffy was being pretty ignorant about the whole ordeal.

As to why Giles was hard on Buffy all season. Well he's always had a father's love for her and as he states in 'The Gift' he views her as a hero;

"No she couldn't, sooner or later Glory will remerge and make Buffy pay for that mercy, and the world with her. Buffy even knew that and still she couldn't take a human life. She's a hero you see, she's not like us."

He doesn't believe she should always have to make the hard choices. In season eight's 'No Future For You' he tells Faith that they must "pay the piper" for the bad things they did in their past. And that they must "shoulder the burden of the more unpleasant aspects" of their line of work. He doesn't feel Buffy deserves to shoulder such burdens, whereas he believes he does, as he states to Buffy, "I've sworn to protect this sorry world and sometimes that means doing and saying what other people can't, they shouldn't have to."

So we have the emotional reasoning behind Giles doing what he does, he makes the hard decisions because he doesn't feel Buffy should have to do the more messy and unpleasant aspects of her work. He stepped in here the same way he did when he murdered Ben, because she's unable to do it.

And a part of him I believe connected what was going on with Spike as to what went on with Angelus in season 2. Buffy was unable to kill Angelus at first because she still loved Angel, and unfortunately Jenny died because of that. Giles is seeing Buffy being blinded and ignorant about Spike and the danger he poses, and Wood isn't wrong when he tells Giles that Spike will be Buffy's undoing. Because at that rate he would be. He stepped in and made a decision he felt she was unable to do herself. He'd attempted to talk to her earlier in that episode and she wouldn't hear of it, she was being foolish. It was unfortunate it resulted in Giles going behind her back, and I don't necessarily agree with killing Spike as we see later it would have been a terrible loss, but Giles had his reasons.

That's my two cents anyway 🙂

 

[Spikes FFL]

I love Giles. And I love Spike. And Buffy was the same way. I don't agree with Giles trying to do away with Spike behind Buffy's back, but I do understand his intentions. He was a father figure to Buffy for so long, and I really believe it was equal parts trying to protect her, getting rid of Spike just to get rid of him, and taking on the First.

Although I do think Buffy is very emotion driven, I think she was seeing a bigger picture. It's been a common theme throughout the series that Buffy is the Slayer and makes all the rules, then her authority gets questioned, and thing go badly, THEN everyone realizes that Buffy was right all along. This may be one of those moments. Yes, Buffy loved Spike, and he was a good figther and could help where he could. But I think Buffy knew what was going to happen. She knew that he would help save her life and the world in the end. She knew the final battle was going to be a mess, and she was trying to take whatever control she could.

I don't think Giles was seeing a bigger picture, even though he thought he was. With the First having control over Spike, it was destined to go badly, and Giles needed to make a sacrifice for the group in order to ensure everyone's safety. Spike was getting dangerous, and Giles needed to take control.

Season 7 is all about the struggle for power, as I see it. Anya tells Buffy that she's "luckier"... The Potentials choose Faith to be the leader for awhile... Xander makes his comments about Buffy being selfish... The First continues to taunt everyone with the fact that the Slayer line would soon end. And Giles. Giles took on the role of protector, and in that episode, it was all about control. he thought he was doing the right thing, and splashed around in the deep end of selfish control.

Don't get me wrong, I love Giles. I love the relationship between Giles and Buffy, and I understand what Giles was trying to do. But in Buffy's eyes, it was wrong, and it damaged the relationship for a microsecond.

 

[Vampmogs2]

I respect your opinion but there's just a couple of things we disagree on. 🙂

Getting rid of Spike just to get rid of him

I don't really think Giles would ever do this just because he wants to get rid of Spike. If he was capable of such things I think he would have tried to kill Angel in 'Revelations' when he found out Buffy had been keeping his return a secret all this time. Instead he said he respected her decision, but made a point in saying how she didn't respect him or the job he performed.

Although I do think Buffy is very emotion driven, I think she was seeing a bigger picture.

I agree that Buffy is very emotionally driven, but I disagree than in this instance she was able to see the bigger picture. I think she was very reckless and ignorant in 'First Date' to tell Spike he can't leave. Spike says that she has another demon fighter now (Wood) and she says "that's not the reason." She says "because I'm not ready for you to not be here." In this instance she put her emotional need to have him around above the war and above the safety of the Potentials she was supposed to protect. She denies in this instance it has anything to do about him being a warrior and all about her own emotions.

In that instance Spike should have still left. No one, including Spike, was ever suggesting that he should leave for good, but until they resolve a way to de-trigger him from the First's control. It would have been the safest plan.

Giles took on the role of protector, and in that episode, it was all about control. he thought he was doing the right thing, and splashed around in the deep end of selfish control.

I'm not sure Giles cared about having control in season seven. He was actually the one stressing to Buffy that it's up to her to lead in 'Bring on the Night' and even in 'Lies My Parents Told Me.' We also saw that down in the basement he was willing to discuss Spike with Buffy but she wouldn't hear of it, she blew him off saying "don't" which was pretty bad of her really, another sign she was isolating the people around her who were her strength and the only reason she'd made it as far as she had. Spike only went behind Buffy's back and claimed his own power because Buffy was unwilling to even discuss Spike with him properly, let alone make any tough decisions or acknowledge the threat he poses.

But in Buffy's eyes, it was wrong, and it damaged the relationship for a microsecond.

I agree. Buffy was right to feel that Giles betrayed her, because he did lure her away and tried to stall her so he could do something behind her back. IMO 'Lies My Parents Told Me' is a horrible episode all around. It makes Buffy look ignorant and foolish, and particularly nasty for saying she'd allow Spike to kill Wood, it made Wood look bad for attempting to kill a vampire with a soul, Giles look bad for trying to go behind Buffy's back, and it made Spike look bad for "not giving a piss" that he killed a woman. I'm really not fond of this episode at all, it showed them all in such a poor light.

It's the reason I'm not fond of season seven much at all. The writers made nearly all of these characters unlikeable and if it weren't for the fact we'd fallen in love with them already when they were written far better in past seasons, I don't think they'd have been as nearly as popular as they were. My love for them made me endure their unpleasantness in this season.