Gunn or Wesley - which did worse?

[bespangeled]

Wesley read a prophecy (which was later proved to have been false) that Angel would kill his son. He did his research - even going to the enemy - and then kidnapped Connor. As a result he had his throat slit, and Connor was stolen by Angel's worst enemy and raised in a hell dimension to hate vampires.

Gunn was losing his law knowledge and didn't want to go back to being just the muscle. He was offered an upgrade, the price being that he sign a piece of paper releasing an artifact. Gunn knew that someone would be hurt or die, but he didn't believe it would be one of them, so he signed the paper. The sarcophagus arrives, Fred dies, and Illyria rises.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Gunn.

You never really expected an interdimensional being to white out a rewrite a prophecy. They had always been spot-on before.. whereas lawyers, you knew were/are evil.

 

[Anointed One]

I say Wesley.

In 'That Old Gang of Mine', he threatened to fire Gunn if he ever withheld information from the group again. Then Wes didn't tell the group about the prophecy. Wes went around saying the group turned on him when in fact he turned on them for selfish reasons. The only reason he didn't tell anyone was because he was butthurt about Gunn dating Fred.

 

[bespangeled]

In 'That Old Gang of Mine', he threatened to fire Gunn if he ever withheld information from the group again Then, Wes didn't tell the group about the prophecy. Wes went around saying the group turned on him when in fact he turned on them for selfish reasons. The only reason he didn't tell anyone was because he was butthurt about Gunn dating Fred.

Huh? He kidnapped Connor because he was butthurt about Fred and Gunn? You know, maybe Gunn allowed Fred to die because he was all butthurt about Wes and Fred?!

Wes was the boss when he told Gunn he would be fired if he withheld information. I don't recall it ever being company policy that everyone must tell everyone else everything.

Exactly how much experience did Gunn and Fred with Angelus? They had no idea what they might be dealing with. Wesley believed he was dealing with Angelus taking over from both the prophecy and Angel's actions. Telling the other two would have just tipped off Angelus. Now if Cordy had been there, I suspect there would have been a far better plan than take the kid and run.

Gunn admitted to his mistake in a short time.

Kind of after the fact and didn't really do anything to bring Fred back to life. Wesley saved Angel from his bout sleeping with the fishes - that was action and not words but it also didn't undo a damn thing. It was on par with Gunn refusing Hamilton which meant far more than any apology.

Both actions were irrevocable. Both were regretted. Wes thought he was saving a life - Gunn knew that he was dooming someone, but he just figured it was someone he didn't know.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Wes thought he was saving a life

Actually you could argue that Wes DID save a life - Connors. As even if Angel didnt snack on him, do you really think Sahjhan would have stopped? He wanted the baby dead one way or the other.

 

[Anointed One]

Huh? He kidnapped Connor because he was butthurt about Fred and Gunn? You know, maybe Gunn allowed Fred to die because he was all butthurt about Wes and Fred?!

Wes was the boss when he told Gunn he would be fired if he withheld information. I don't recall it ever being company policy that everyone must tell everyone else everything.

Exactly how much experience did Gunn and Fred with Angelus? They had no idea what they might be dealing with. Wesley believed he was dealing with Angelus taking over from both the prophecy and Angel's actions. Telling the other two would have just tipped off Angelus. Now if Cordy had been there, I suspect there would have been a far better plan than take the kid and run.

Wesley could've told Lorne. And how is not telling anyone Angelus is possibly returning a good thing? Remember, Lorne said Wesley wasn't coming back, meaning he would've left them to deal with someone who like you just said, they didn't have any experience with.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

meaning he would've left them to deal with someone who like you just said, they didn't have any experience with.

But if Angelus was coming back due to the Connor influence and Connor was not present one could assume then Angelus would not have manifested.

 

[Anointed One]

But if Angelus was coming back due to the Connor influence and Connor was not present one could assume then Angelus would not have manifested.

Angel would've eventually caught up with them. Surely Wes knew that.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Angel would've eventually caught up with them. Surely Wes knew that.

I doubt it. Angel wasn't as smart or savvy as Wesley. And Wesley can move about in the day. It would be very easy for an international man of mystery like Wes to hide.

 

[bespangeled]

Actually you could argue that Wes DID save a life - Connors. As even if Angel didnt snack on him, do you really think Sahjhan would have stopped? He wanted the baby dead one way or the other.

I never thought of that one - though as a parent, having your child taken by an old enemy into a hell dimension is worse than dealing with a demon Angel could kill. Then again, if Sahjhan had been known, none of this would have happened.
 

Angel would've eventually caught up with them. Surely Wes knew that.

Here's where the story gets blurry - my impression was that Wesley intended to return Connor once his fears were proven false. Simply because you're right - Angel would have found them. Wesley put himself in grave danger to try and save Connor, because the best that could have happened is that Angel would have found them.

 

[thetopher]

Gunn, because his motivation was entirely selfish. He didn't want to lose his dark mojo. Boo friggin' hoo.

Say what you want about Wesley's actions, doomed, foolhardy or whatever, but he did it knowing full well that it would cost him his friendships and all he had gained in hopes of saving both Connor from Angel, and Angel from himself. Not much in it for himself, even if he was mistaken.

Wesley was duped, Gunn duped himself.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

worse than dealing with a demon Angel could kill. Then again, if Sahjhan had been known, none of this would have happened.

Right, but COULD Angel defeat him? From the original prophecy it seemed like there was only one thing that would defeat him: Connor. Assuming that the prophecy was correct and that Connor would kill him, then only Connor could kill him. Sahjhan could have been like the terminator and kept coming and coming to kill the kid before the kid could kill him.

 

[bespangeled]

I doubt it. Angel wasn't as smart or savvy as Wesley. And Wesley can move about in the day. It would be very easy for an international man of mystery like Wes to hide.

Wesley could have gone to Giles - now that would be interesting. Offer Willow's services for a chance to examine Connor while he's sheltered. Have Faith there to hold Angel back.
 

Right, but COULD Angel defeat him? From the original prophecy it seemed like there was only one thing that would defeat him: Connor. Assuming that the prophecy was correct and that Connor would kill him, then only Connor could kill him. Sahjhan could have been like the terminator and kept coming and coming to kill the kid before the kid could kill him.

Ah, but prophecies are BS and nothing is written in stone, as Angel said.
Yeah, I do actually agree - Sahjhan would keep coming and he actually did quite well manipulating behind the scenes so he would be harder to discover.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Ah, but prophecies are BS and nothing is written in stone, as Angel said.

I just thought that was him posturing. He believed in the prophecies when they suited him, but when they didn't they weren't written in stone. The fact that, despite hell and high water, the Sahjhan death prophecy was right on the money lends me to believe they were written in stone.

 

[brinkster130]

Gunn, but only by a little bit.

Wesley let himself be duped by that prophecy. He chose not to trust his friends and work alone and in doing so he wasn't able to get the full truth...that's on him.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

@brinkster130 "but, wasn't Buffy's death a prophecy earlier?" She did die so it was fulfilled. And did he even know about the prophecy? Was he too busy being head boy at the time?

 

[bespangeled]

Gunn, but only by a little bit.

Wesley let himself be duped by that prophecy. He chose not to trust his friends and work alone and in doing so he wasn't able to get the full truth...that's on him.

How would talking to Gunn and Fred give him an information he needed? How would it contradict the prophecy, or reassure him that Angelus was not emerging? Even having Angel sing for Lorne would make it obvious that they knew he was Angelus?

 

[GwenRaiden]

Gunn's actions were worse.

Connor lived (though unknowingly at the time, and even got the normal life he deserved in the end). Fred died.

Gunn gave in to the greed and corruption offered to him by W&H thus ending Fred's life.

I think Wesley was feeling a bit "weight of the world" as a boss and was generally feeling a bit dejected and ashamed since around 'Billy', after what he did to Fred, even more so as Fred and Gunn became a couple. He buried himself in his work and became obsessed with the prophecy - he needed proof, telling Angel and co. that Angel was destined to kill his infant son is some dark and disturbing info. It was a series of unfortunate events for Wesley. Lots of "what ifs", whereas Gunn was quite aware of the consequences but greed and the need for power took over.

 

[brinkster130]

@brinkster130 "but, wasn't Buffy's death a prophecy earlier?" She did die so it was fulfilled. And did he even know about the prophecy? Was he too busy being head boy at the time?

But she came back to life so they know that prophecies aren't always what they seem. If Wes had reached out to his friends it's very likely someone should have remembered and pointed him in the right direction. A 5 minute talk with Cordy, Giles or Willow would have brought up that info. Wes decided not to talk to anyone about it, decided that they weren't trustworthy enough....

How would talking to Gunn and Fred give him an information he needed? How would it contradict the prophecy, or reassure him that Angelus was not emerging? Even having Angel sing for Lorne would make it obvious that they knew he was Angelus?

Not Gunn or Fred; but Cordy. He made no effort to talk to her. He just decided she couldn't be trusted; when in reality she could have been the one to point him in the right direction. Cordy was around when the Buffy will die at the hands of the Master prophecy wasn't as it seemed and she could have easily talked to Willow or Giles about it.

I just think Wes let his personal feelings get in the way of finding out all the info.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But she came back to life so they know that prophecies aren't always what they seem. If Wes had reached out to his friends it's very likely someone should have remembered and pointed him in the right direction.

But here's the thing Brinky.. she did die. It's easier to come back from death than it is to come back from being EATEN! I mean.. one's just laying there awaiting CPR (or cryogenics) and the other is in Angel's belly! The fact she did die would leave one to conclude (based upon the information at the time) Connor would be eaten. Angel was already munchin on his blood and saying how much he smelled like food.

Wes had no friends, not really. His closest friend, Cordy, was gone. I don't think he really counted Gunn or Fred as friends at that time and entrusting them with knowledge they could easily run and tell Angel was a dubious position as he only had one shot at it.