Guns

[ItMustBeBunnies]

Ok so on Buffy we are told that guns are evil "These? Never helpful" and that they dont solve anything. On Angel, Wesley is happily shooting away at any oppertunity and looking super cool doing it. Dont you think this is a bit of a mixed message? Obviously different shows but Joss is behind them both, so dont you think he should be more consistent with his stance on this subject?.

 

[OldSwede]

Ok so on Buffy we are told that guns are evil "These? Never helpful" and that they dont solve anything. On Angel, Wesley is happily shooting away at any oppertunity and looking super cool doing it. Dont you think this is a bit of a mixed message? Obviously different shows but Joss is behind them both, so dont you think he should be more consistent with his stance on this subject?.

Shooting at monsters seems to be OK, though, as Buffy can even use heavy weaponry for that. I don't remember if Wesley shoots humans in a cool way? Or is it more like part of his moral dilemmas (he isn't supposed to be perfect)?

There's lots of "cool" shooting in Firefly, too, but there you might argue that it's just part of the Space Western fun in a cartoonish not really real death kind of way. On the other hand I've seen Joss argue that even cartoons should be taken very seriously. So I wonder what his stand on the use of weapons really is? Maybe he doesn't have a very strong opinion/message?

 

[ItMustBeBunnies]

No No not shooting at humans, obviously Wes dosen't do that. Yes violence in general seems to be in a way accepted in these shows as it is about superheros of sorts. Im talking guns specifically, I remember an interview with Joss he said that the reason buffy herself never uses guns is because yes he thinks they are never useful, thats why he gave her lines like the one I mentioned above, and ofcourse it was in the lead up to Tara's death. If he doesn't agree with using them why would he have a character with one and make it look really cool?, regardless of the fact if he is shooting at demons or humans.

Sorry Ive never watched Firefly (although I do want too.) So I cant have an opinion on that.

 

[white avenger]

I'm not sure, and it never was mentioned directly, but Buffy's aversion to guns might be the result of either Giles' teaching or Watchers' policy more than anything else. Buffy was taught to fight in a certain manner, and that consisted of using primarily weapons more suited for display in a museum or antique store. The only real reason why guns wouldn't be used would be for the standpoint of action. It's more exciting to see Buffy slug it out with whatever vampire or demon she might run into that to just stand back and shoot them, hose them down with a flame thrower, or blow them up with hand grenades. As far as that goes, if assorted demons can, as we've seen on numerous occasions, use swords, knives, and one very large hammer, there would be no real reason why they couldn't use something more modern. It just looks more exciting to have them not do it.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I think it's all to do with how Black and White Buffy's world is. Demons bad, Guns bad, Humans Good. That's how Buffy sees the world, and it works in the context of the show. Now, Angel is much more about the darkness in the human soul. Yes, they fight Demons, but W&H are the main antagonists throughout. Because of that, Angel inc. are much more up with modern times and weaponry. Wesley is also one of the more grey characters when it comes to his trigger happy phase.

Something to note though. He does shoot a human. Granted, it's Knox, who just killed Fred, but that would have caused an uproar on Buffy. It did, with Willow, in fact. They weren't as concerned about the effects of Willow's magic addiction than they were that she had crossed a line in killing a human. Wesley's shooting of Knox wasn't as glorified as his slo-mo diving against The Beast, or whatever, but it was portrayed as a viable option. He never showed any remorse, and no-one asked any of him.

 

[Washburne]

Guns as a subject is a very delicate matter. Lets see if we can keep the discussion to just the shows.

I think WA is right. Then it comes to Buffy it´s more natural for what kind of shows it is. Running around shooting or blowing up everyone wouldn´t be "fun" at all. It suits the show. The same thing goes for Firefly. It´s cowboys in space. And does it really matter if it guns used in guns as we know it or like the (I hate to "miss" words) weapons used then ships battle it out? You aim, you shoot, hopefully you´ll hurt or kill someone. I don´t have much problem with it (in this show) but it´s not like I would complain if they didn´t have any.

Even if Wes uses a gun from time to time I´ve never seen it like something cool. But maybe that´s just me (and I´m not a big fan of guns in real life).

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Guns as a subject is a very delicate matter. Lets see if we can keep the discussion to just the shows.

I think WA is right. Then it comes to Buffy it´s more natural for what kind of shows it is. Running around shooting or blowing up everyone wouldn´t be "fun" at all. It suits the show. The same thing goes for Firefly. It´s cowboys in space. And does it really matter if it guns used in guns as we know it or like the (I hate to "miss" words) weapons used then ships battle it out? You aim, you shoot, hopefully you´ll hurt or kill someone. I don´t have much problem with it (in this show) but it´s not like I would complain if they didn´t have any.

Even if Wes uses a gun from time to time I´ve never seen it like something cool. But maybe that´s just me (and I´m not a big fan of guns in real life).

But it's not so much whether you find it cool or not, (I don't particularly either), as whether it's glorified in the context of the show or not. In Buffy, it isn't, in Angel, it usually is. It's kind of a mixed message, but in the context of each show it makes sense. It's just the Wesley issue that irks me. Joss seems to be usually consistent with his message, but here, not so much. I just don't thing the context stretches enough to cover it.
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The Kinslayer agrees: True. So it´s more glorified on Angel than om Buffy but is it glorified that much? Yes, I can be extremly naive at times.

When the guy who's almost unbearably BA starts using a shotgun at ridiculously close range, and doing slow motion dual pistol dives every five minutes I get the feeling that the guns are being glorified!

 

[Washburne]

When the guy who's almost unbearably BA starts using a shotgun at ridiculously close range, and doing slow motion dual pistol dives every five minutes I get the feeling that the guns are being glorified!

I meant more like THAT much. I know it happens. But sure, I don´t take notice at stuff like that so maybe every five minutes is true (yes I know what you meant). I don´t care for scenes like that and tend to forget them rather quickly.

IMBB: I´m just not good at phrasing myself. I got you.

 

[white avenger]

It's not really an effort to either glorify or demonize guns, and for that matter, it isn't even JUST guns. On Buffy's show, there seemed to be a deliberate avoidance of ANY sort of modern technology, whether it was guns, explosives, or computers. The Scoobies didn't even get cell phones until Season 7, and Giles actually had trouble driving his new car with its automatic transmission. In Los Angeles, Angel's recurring "Big Bad" was Wolfram & Hart, who used cutting edge technology. For him, the use of more modern weapons, as seen with Wesley and his guns, was more of a requirement than a choice.

 

[T.I.P]

How cool would it have been if Spike carried a gun! I even wish Xander had a gun.

 

[Atren]

Maybe i am wrong, but i just took it as personal preference. Buffy is in her element in hand to hand and melee weapons like swords, Wesley on other hand is not anywhere near the Buffy in those areas so he needs something to balance the odds and guns are most flexible choice for that.

 

[Kemy]

Joss has stated several times that he is very anti-gun, and wanted that message to get through in the show. Most of the time he did so by at least having a certain amount of humour to it.

With Angel and Firefly the studio started overruling him and including more gun use in the show. For Firefly there wasn't much choice in the matter since it was a western, so I assume Joss lightened up on the matter, in terms of writing the show I mean. In real life he hasn't changed his opinion.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

Joss has stated several times that he is very anti-gun, and wanted that message to get through in the show. Most of the time he did so by at least having a certain amount of humour to it.

With Angel and Firefly the studio started overruling him and including more gun use in the show. For Firefly there wasn't much choice in the matter since it was a western, so I assume Joss lightened up on the matter, in terms of writing the show I mean. In real life he hasn't changed his opinion.

I kind of got that feeling towards the end of Angel actually. Since when did Joss do bullet time...

 

[NightBird]

I don't think that the feelings Joss has towards guns needs to be reflected in every character in all his shows, this would make for very little variety in characters and would become quickly stagnant.

A writers personal feelings shouldn't colour their characters to the point that there can be no drama or friction between them.

I'm a wanna be comic book writer and I have to give characters opinions that I myself disagree with and sometimes for the sake of the story opinions that I find deplorable.

I don't think that Wes using guns is Joss being unclear with his message about guns, I just think that Joss thought that Wes having a guns was a logical part of his character and help make Wes feel more human, after all, Wes isn't a Vamp or slayer, he's only human, and 'we' use guns.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I don't think that the feelings Joss has towards guns needs to be reflected in every character in all his shows, this would make for very little variety in characters and would become quickly stagnant.

A writers personal feelings shouldn't colour their characters to the point that there can be no drama or friction between them.

I'm a wanna be comic book writer and I have to give characters opinions that I myself disagree with and sometimes for the sake of the story opinions that I find deplorable.

I don't think that Wes using guns is Joss being unclear with his message about guns, I just think that Joss thought that Wes having a guns was a logical part of his character and help make Wes feel more human, after all, Wes isn't a Vamp or slayer, he's only human, and 'we' use guns.

I agree, but it's not that he uses them that's annoying, it's how they are glorified in Angel that seems off-message.

 

[Kemy]

I don't think that the feelings Joss has towards guns needs to be reflected in every character in all his shows, this would make for very little variety in characters and would become quickly stagnant.

A writers personal feelings shouldn't colour their characters to the point that there can be no drama or friction between them.

I'm a wanna be comic book writer and I have to give characters opinions that I myself disagree with and sometimes for the sake of the story opinions that I find deplorable.

I don't think that Wes using guns is Joss being unclear with his message about guns, I just think that Joss thought that Wes having a guns was a logical part of his character and help make Wes feel more human, after all, Wes isn't a Vamp or slayer, he's only human, and 'we' use guns.

True, in my own comic (should I ever get the damn thing done) the characters do things that I personally disapprove of, but that suits their character.

Joss prefers his more heroic types like Buffy to never use guns, with Wesley it suits his gradual decline into murkier waters of morality, similarly with his affair with Lilah.

Notice how its Warren, one of the lowest, inhuman characters of the show that does some real damage with a gun. In Buffy the message was hammered home much more.

In Angel it is a greyer area, Wesley as I said before, and eventually its even how they stop Skip. A gun is now the weapon that saves the day, and in a novel even funny way. But against a demon and not a person.

Firefly is when I think he finally accepted that they were a necessary plot point and had to be included and started thinking of some interesting ways for their use to be included such as Jayne's constant hilarious overuse of them.

But even then, the more serious aspect of gun violence was played down by having it take a comic context. The death of Tara was the only truly tragic, realistic gun related moment in the Whedonverse and I'm not sure Joss even wrote that part.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I agree; I think that if every character I wrote agreed with me completely, my stories would be a big agreement-fest and really really boring. Case in point: I swore up and down that I would NEVER EVER EVER have animals die in my stories because it's horrible and mean and evil. Guess what? I wrote a horrible, mean, evil character who HAD to kill some animals (a bunny and a litter of kittens, specifically) in order to show just how horrible, mean, and evil he was. It made me sick to have to do it, but it was completely necessary to the plot and the character.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

I agree; I think that if every character I wrote agreed with me completely, my stories would be a big agreement-fest and really really boring. Case in point: I swore up and down that I would NEVER EVER EVER have animals die in my stories because it's horrible and mean and evil. Guess what? I wrote a horrible, mean, evil character who HAD to kill some animals (a bunny and a litter of kittens, specifically) in order to show just how horrible, mean, and evil he was. It made me sick to have to do it, but it was completely necessary to the plot and the character.

But did you do it in a way that made it look like a really cool and BA thing to do? No, cause that wasn't the message you were trying to put across.

 

[Blondie Bear]

No, it was pretty nasty, actually. At least, the rabbit was. I didn't show the kittens dying. I had to draw the line somewhere.

 

[JenniferAlice]

Guns are bitchin', I want one..