Have you've forgiven Angel for killing...

I have not forgiven him. I don't read the comics, but I don't think I'll ever be able to get past that. 🙁
Giles
was such a beloved character for me, and when I found out what happened, I felt sick.
 
Yeah Angel gets no love from me down with Mr broody pants.
 
I have not forgiven Joss for doing that to the two of my favorite characters, even though the portents were all there since TLMPTM. Still, I am not about to loose hope of having them back even in a weird way it is likely to go.
 
Kean
Kean
[No message]
I think that deep down Angel does not give a shit about being forgiven. He believes that what he did was right, he really does, still thinks he's a hero. Angel's mental, completely bonkers.

Personally, I couldn't care less about
Giles'
death, self-righteous rotten rat had it coming, I wanted him dead since the moment he started ordering assassinations because of prophecies. I do care about dead
slayers
though and thus want that broody repugnant worm with a hero syndrome to immolate himself.
 
Well, if you do care about
dead Slayers
the first on your deathwish list should be
Buffy for starting the war with humanity
and
Lea, Satsu, Rowena for justifying and participating in the bank-robbery that got it started and for keeping obeing orders that led to its escalation.
. And btw, calling fictional character names like 'rat', 'worm' etc does nothing to the said characters but actually upsets real people - but I am certain you are using this kind of epithets exactly because it upsets living, real people on the other end of the receiving line. Because you are after upsetting real people and that seems to be the main goal of this entire discussion for you.
 
P
patriot1123
[No message]
So I cant call him Mr broody pants?
 
L
ladydorotea
LOL, I mainly objected to Giles being called names out of the blue without much objective reasoning...
Giles should have been killed after "Helpless" 3ABB12 by either Buffy or Joyce. The Watcher's Council put both at needless risk in a form of Milgram experiment that forced Giles to go against his conscience. Nobody seems game to charge him with reckless endangerment after the fact. He was allowed back into the fold only to stave off Wesley, a person even more disconnected from reality. I cheered when the entire Watcher's Council got blown up in Season 7. They deserved it.
 
R
Robb Stark
I don't know about killed, but yeah, Buffy kind of let that one go
Ethan Reigns said:
Giles should have been killed after "Helpless"
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If we follow this trail of logic, Xander should have been offed right after the 'Pack' episode, Cordelia after the 'Wish' - as well as Anya, Willow after 'I Robot you Jane', 'Something Blue' or right after 'Wrecked'. Joyce should have been a goner after Gingerbread. Andrew should have been offed in S6 - before he had a chance to off Jonathan, who btw should have been dead after 'Superstar' episode. It would have also been proper to kill Buffy after 'Normal Again', and then we could have had a show with all of the Cordettes plus some new Slayer called after Faith was offed right in the Faith Hope and Trick episode.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
[No message]
EVIL UU
EVIL UU
I'm OK with this!
I haven't forgiven Angel for what he did in Season 2 yet. Everything else will have to wait its turn.

But, seriously, yeah, I've pretty much forgiven him. I may never forgive Joss, however, if yet ANOTHER character returns from the dead.
 
R
Robb Stark
lol my bad.
ladydorotea said:
If we follow this trail of logic, Xander should have been offed right after the 'Pack' episode, Cordelia after the 'Wish' - as well as Anya, Willow after 'I Robot you Jane', 'Something Blue' or right after 'Wrecked'. Joyce should have been a goner after Gingerbread. Andrew should have been offed in S6 - before he had a chance to off Jonathan, who btw should have been dead after 'Superstar' episode. It would have also been proper to kill Buffy after 'Normal Again', and then we could have had a show with all of the Cordettes plus some new Slayer called after Faith was offed right in the Faith Hope and Trick episode.
Click to expand...

Xander wasn't there when principal Flutie was killed and the killers were under a spell and not responsible for their actions. Xander is not to blame, the zookeeper was - and he got fed to the hyenas.

Cordelia did not have any idea that her wish was to be carried out. Cordelia is not to blame for anything more than idle words which were not even voiced as a threat. As obnoxious as Cordelia and the Cordettes were, they deserved embarrassment but did nothing deserving of death. Anya deserved to die - her spreading of misery for a thousand years starting with the spell cast on her husband to make him a troll, before she accepted the status of a demon, was worthy of death.

Willow's spells did not kill anyone until Warren. Her actions in much of the show were increasingly reckless but not fatal until she killed Warren and Warren was going to remain a threat until he was killed. Her continued attack on Andrew and Johnathan would have been murder if they had succeeded and are still attempted murder. If Xander had not succeeded in getting her to abort the end of the world, I would not have had any compunctions about someone killing her to stop the spell.

Agreed that Joyce should have been gone after "Gingerbread", but the episode did show that we have not progressed far enough from the Dark Ages. The modern witchhunts of the McCarthy era were handled more explicitly in "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been" on Angel - these are events in living memory that could easily be repeated now.

Andrew is an easily influenced person, lost in a world of Dungeons and Dragons and Star Trek and Star Wars and James Bond and all sorts of similar fantasies, who was influenced to kill Johnathan. He may try to make a defense of diminished capacity as a result of this, but it was murder.

"Superstar" did not result in anything other than endangerment of Buffy and Johnathan acted at the last minute to save her.

"Normal Again" was a case of hallucinogenic poisoning that led to a dangerous mental state. Buffy was not responsible for her actions.

It wouldn't have bothered me if Buffy had killed Faith and she almost did.

But I maintain Giles is a separate case. He was not under any direct threat other than the disapproval and possible expulsion from the Watcher's Council. He cannot use the defense that he was under a spell, subject to a hallucinogen or anything else that would alter his mental function. He was an educated man who had overcome a past where magic had cost the life of one of his friends and he could be held responsible for that. He was an intelligent man who should have known that obedience to arbitrary rules was wrong and should have known many examples from history where psychopathic people or organizations depended on obedience as a force multiplier for their evil. But he went along because of his fears of loss of acceptance from people who should not have mattered.
 
Agreed that Joyce should have been gone after "Gingerbread",
Click to expand...

What? You do realise Joyce was under a magical influence in Gingerbread? If you are exonerating Hyena!Xander (as do I) you should do the same for Joyce because it's more or less the same situation.
 
R
Robb Stark
[No message]
Giles started down the path, realized it was wrong, and terminated the test at a time that he thought it would be over and Buffy would be safe. He redeemed himself.

Had he refused in the first instance, he would have been fired and another Watcher assigned to do the test anyway.
 
With the lack of love Joss and others seem to have for the comics I don't see the comics as canon. So, Angel has done nothing that needs forgiveness in my eyes xP
 
I haven't forgiven him, killing Giles was unforgivable. Yet I still read Angel & Faith in the hopes he will redeem himself.
 
Angel should be the poster child for the "One Aw S**t Cancels A Thousand Attaboys Society," and Season 8 should be undeniable proof that, the harder he tries to be a good boy, the easier it is for him to screw up. All of the "Yes, but it would have been much worse if Angel hadn't done what he did," and "Yes, he was leading an army whose goal was the total destruction of the universe, but he was gonna see to it that all of the people were saved," and even the, "Yes, but he was under Twilight's thrall, so it wasn't really him doing all of that," arguments fail to impress, let alone convince, me that Angel's one and only goal in Season 8 wasn't to play Adam to Buffy's Eve in Twilight's version of Eden. Whether or not another single soul survived Twilight's plan never even entered into his thinking.
 
white avenger said:
All of the "Yes, but it would have been much worse if Angel hadn't done what he did," and "Yes, he was leading an army whose goal was the total destruction of the universe, but he was gonna see to it that all of the people were saved," and even the, "Yes, but he was under Twilight's thrall, so it wasn't really him doing all of that," arguments fail to impress, let alone convince, me that Angel's one and only goal in Season 8 wasn't to play Adam to Buffy's Eve in Twilight's version of Eden.
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They may not convince you, but they're there for a reason. I mean, he was mind-controlled coming directly out "After the Fall" (one of the most uplifting and powerful endings to a story I've read in ages), and they had an entire dialogue free page illustrating that Twilight had him fully controlled. Beyond thinking that Spike is a better match for Buffy than Angel, why would you just disregard that? After everything we've of Angel up until that point, do you have any evidence at all that he thinks that way? I mean hell, he was the one who left her in S3 because he felt it was the right thing to do for goodness sake!

Whether or not another single soul survived Twilight's plan never even entered into his thinking.
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I don't know how you can watch five seasons of Angel and possibly say that's correct or who he is. That's a wildly different interpretation of everything we see of him on the show and in "After the Fall". Like, radically different.
 
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