Have you've forgiven Angel for killing...

[white avenger]

They may not convince you, but they're there for a reason. I mean, he was mind-controlled coming directly out "After the Fall" (one of the most uplifting and powerful endings to a story I've read in ages), and they had an entire dialogue free page illustrating that Twilight had him fully controlled. Beyond thinking that Spike is a better match for Buffy than Angel, why would you just disregard that? After everything we've of Angel up until that point, do you have any evidence at all that he thinks that way? I mean hell, he was the one who left her in S3 because he felt it was the right thing to do for goodness sake!



I don't know how you can watch five seasons of Angel and possibly say that's correct or who he is. That's a wildly different interpretation of everything we see of him on the show and in "After the Fall". Like, radically different.

First off, Angel was not "mind controlled coming directly out of 'After The Fall.'" He was in full control of his senses when he was first approached and recruited by Twilight. At the worst, he had a slight concussion from hitting the "Hollywood" sign. The mind control came much later.

And this has nothing whatsoever to do with Spike, Spuffy, Bangel, or any other character or ship. This is entirely about Angel willingly joining forces with Twilight, little, if any, different than Caleb working for the First Evil. Maybe he was tricked into it, maybe he was lied to, maybe he was led to believe that he was getting something that he really wasn't, but Angel was in full control of his senses when he struck the bargain.

(And before anyone attacks me for comparing Caleb to Angel, that isn't my intention at all. What I am comparing is their job description, not their personalities)

I have watched 5 seasons of Angel, and I have seen him on several occasions make life altering decisions in someone else's life, usually with less than blissful results, without consulting them beforehand. I also saw him, in the finale of his own series, force a confrontation with the Senior Partners that landed the entire population of Los Angeles and the surrounding area in hell. Excuse that if you want to by saying, "Yes, but the Senior Partners were planning on doing that anyhow," but we never saw any indication that such a thing was imminent. It might not have happened for centuries without Angel's actions, which he described himself as being nothing more than a suicidal gesture with no hope whatsoever of success.

Angel has a tragic flaw, and that flaw is that he thinks that he for some reason has the right to manipulate other people's lives for whatever he judges to be the greater good. Those decisions have steadily grown in magnitude from deciding what was best for Buffy on both her show and his own, through obliterating all knowledge of his son's existence, to deciding that it is somehow better for the entire population of a large city to be sent to hell in order that he make his futile, suicidal gesture. Deciding to help destroy the universe for no more apparent reason than that a super powerful being calling itself Twilight wants to do it differs only in magnitude from the things that he had done before.

And his mission in Season 9 would seem to illustrate that he hasn't learned from his and others' past mistakes. Who better than Angel would know, after seeing what Buffy went through, what it means to have a soul torn from its place of eternal rest and thrown back into the world? But does that stop him?

 

[Robb Stark]

First off, Angel was not "mind controlled coming directly out of 'After The Fall.'" He was in full control of his senses when he was first approached and recruited by Twilight. At the worst, he had a slight concussion from hitting the "Hollywood" sign. The mind control came much later.

And this has nothing whatsoever to do with Spike, Spuffy, Bangel, or any other character or ship. This is entirely about Angel willingly joining forces with Twilight, little, if any, different than Caleb working for the First Evil. Maybe he was tricked into it, maybe he was lied to, maybe he was led to believe that he was getting something that he really wasn't, but Angel was in full control of his senses when he struck the bargain.

At the beginning, yes, you're correct, and if I misstated, my apologies. However, being "tricked, lied to or getting led to believe that he was getting something he really wasn't" does apply. He WAS influenced and controlled by Twilight, and it wasn't that much later. It wasn't as if it didn't happen until "Last Gleaming". He was shown visions that "After the Fall" would be repeated.

And at the climactic part of S8, where Giles dies, Angel is fully possessed by Twilight so that the Seed can be protected. That isn't Angel at all.

I have watched 5 seasons of Angel, and I have seen him on several occasions make life altering decisions in someone else's life, usually with less than blissful results, without consulting them beforehand. I also saw him, in the finale of his own series, force a confrontation with the Senior Partners that landed the entire population of Los Angeles and the surrounding area in hell. Excuse that if you want to by saying, "Yes, but the Senior Partners were planning on doing that anyhow," but we never saw any indication that such a thing was imminent. It might not have happened for centuries without Angel's actions, which he described himself as being nothing more than a suicidal gesture with no hope whatsoever of success.

There was no indication whatsoever that the Senior Partners would react that way. If anything, any information Angel and company had at the time suggested the complete opposite. Holland Manners and all the other W&H representatives repeatedly told Angel Investigations that regular life was W&H's ultimate evil plan.

And as a point of interest...Spike, Wesley, Lorne and Gunn were all chief architects of "Not Fade Away" as well. If Angel bears responsibility for making "life altering decisions", then they do as well.

Angel has a tragic flaw, and that flaw is that he thinks that he for some reason has the right to manipulate other people's lives for whatever he judges to be the greater good. Those decisions have steadily grown in magnitude from deciding what was best for Buffy on both her show and his own, through obliterating all knowledge of his son's existence, to deciding that it is somehow better for the entire population of a large city to be sent to hell in order that he make his futile, suicidal gesture. Deciding to help destroy the universe for no more apparent reason than that a super powerful being calling itself Twilight wants to do it differs only in magnitude from the things that he had done before.

Is that any different than Buffy, who many, many times says things along the lines of "I'm the Slayer. And you're not"? Why doesn't Buffy get knocked then for genetically altering the DNA of thousands of innocent girls across the globe and making them Slayers, even though it was completely unnecessary? Or Superman, who in every movie has frequently circumnavigated the military simply because he thinks its right? Or Batman, for that matter? You've lumped them all together, but there's context to every one of them. People who criticize Angel for rewinding time always seem to gloss over the fact that he was told by a then highly trusted source that she would die otherwise. With Connor, he was about to commit suicide and murder tons of innocent people. He'd made it very clear that he'd completely snapped. How can Angel be faulted for what he did there?

And my original point still stands. I don't think you can fairly say that Angel doesn't care about people judging from everything we've seen of him.

 

[white avenger]

Spike, Wesley, Lorne and Gunn were all chief architects of "Not Fade Away" as well. If Angel bears responsibility for making "life altering decisions", then they do as well.



Is that any different than Buffy, Or Superman, Or Batman, for that matter? People who criticize Angel for rewinding time always seem to gloss over the fact that he was told by a then highly trusted source that she would die otherwise. With Connor, he was about to commit suicide and murder tons of innocent people. He'd made it very clear that he'd completely snapped. How can Angel be faulted for what he did there?

And my original point still stands. I don't think you can fairly say that Angel doesn't care about people judging from everything we've seen of him.

I never said that Angel was the only person in the Buffyverse who tried to make decisions for others, but "He/She did it, so I can too," is a poor defense.

Superman and Batman aren't part of the Buffyverse.

It isn't that Angel NEVER cared about other people. Certainly he did. My point is that in Season 8, his primary reason for doing what he did was to share the Twilight Universe with Buffy. Nothing was ever said about anyone else being there until after the fact, when some defense for Angel's actions had to be found. In fact, Buffy and Angel actually discuss the point about "leaving everyone they knew and loved behind." That doesn't sound like all of the people in the world being brought over to me. In fact, if that WERE the case, there wouldn't have been any point in 99% of what happened in Season 8. Twilight's plan was for Buffy and Angel to be its universe's Adam and Eve, which implies that they are to be the beginning of a new race. Eden is for a single couple, not the entire population of a planet.

And even if the plan WAS to somehow magically relocate everyone, minus, of course, everyone who Twilight had killed beforehand, human history abounds with examples of groups of people being forcefully "relocated" simply because a more powerful group found a reason to do so. The Japanese Americans were relocated, supposedly for their own protection, at the beginning of World War 2, causing them to lose everything that they had that couldn't be packed into a couple of suitcases. In my own home state of Georgia, when gold was discovered on Cherokee tribal land, President Jackson moved the entire tribe, except those few who went into hiding in the wilderness of the Smokey Mountains in Tennessee, to Oklahoma. The journey there is referred to as the "Trail Of Tears," because of all of the Cherokee, mostly women, children, and those too old or sick to survive the march.

If Twilight's plan was to relocate everyone to its universe in order to protect them from some sort of inevitable global destruction, Angel could have simply explained that to Buffy and her friends and tried to enlist their help before declaring war on the entire human race. Maybe she would have cooperated, maybe not, but if Angel's reasoning was to kill some humans in order to make all of the others safe and happy...no, wait a minute, that's what Jasmine did in Season 4 of "Angel," wasn't it?

Why would Angel buy into a plan like that, before ever being enthralled by Twilight, in Season 8 when he stopped pretty much the same thing just a couple of years earlier?

Maybe because Jasmine didn't offer him Buffy and their own Garden Of Eden.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

People who criticize Angel for rewinding time always seem to gloss over the fact that he was told by a then highly trusted source that she would die otherwise.

Buffy will die protecting somebody regardless of what Angel does. The only thing he achieves by rewinding the time is that she will not die protecting him. Oh, except she will because she will die protecting everything and everybody in "The Gift" - Prophecies are tricky creatures. They don't tell you everything.

Why doesn't Buffy get knocked then for genetically altering the DNA of thousands of innocent girls across the globe and making them Slayers, even though it was completely unnecessary?

She gets knocked for that all the time on this forum, we had multiple threads about it.

Or Batman, for that matter?

Well, personally, I knock him every chance I get. If Bruce Wayne really cared about the safety of the citizens of Gotham he would spend his money on things that actually work like GCPD, mental health treatment facilities, CCTV, education, blight elimination, public spaces and so on instead on, you know, bat toys. But that's not fun isn't it? Batman is just another nutcase criminal, he's not a solution, he's a part of the problem.

 

[Robb Stark]

Superman and Batman aren't part of the Buffyverse.

It isn't that Angel NEVER cared about other people. Certainly he did. My point is that in Season 8, his primary reason for doing what he did was to share the Twilight Universe with Buffy. Nothing was ever said about anyone else being there until after the fact, when some defense for Angel's actions had to be found. In fact, Buffy and Angel actually discuss the point about "leaving everyone they knew and loved behind." That doesn't sound like all of the people in the world being brought over to me. In fact, if that WERE the case, there wouldn't have been any point in 99% of what happened in Season 8. Twilight's plan was for Buffy and Angel to be its universe's Adam and Eve, which implies that they are to be the beginning of a new race. Eden is for a single couple, not the entire population of a planet.

And even if the plan WAS to somehow magically relocate everyone, minus, of course, everyone who Twilight had killed beforehand, human history abounds with examples of groups of people being forcefully "relocated" simply because a more powerful group found a reason to do so. The Japanese Americans were relocated, supposedly for their own protection, at the beginning of World War 2, causing them to lose everything that they had that couldn't be packed into a couple of suitcases. In my own home state of Georgia, when gold was discovered on Cherokee tribal land, President Jackson moved the entire tribe, except those few who went into hiding in the wilderness of the Smokey Mountains in Tennessee, to Oklahoma. The journey there is referred to as the "Trail Of Tears," because of all of the Cherokee, mostly women, children, and those too old or sick to survive the march.

Well, to start (and this isn't meant to be offensive, so forgive me if it is), all those examples, like Batman and Superman, aren't in the Buffyverse. So by that logic then they should also have no bearing on the discussion. And you're right, it is a poor defense, but it was meant to outline the larger point that superheroes, in and out of the Buffyverse, ALWAYS make huge decisions to do what they think is best, and that isn't unique to Angel.

And at the same time, you can't use the argument outside the parameters of the story by saying things like "when an excuse for Angel had to be found" and then not at the same time use "the writers" for other excuses then as well. The Twilight storyline made almost no sense. Twilight/Angel's entire "plan" didn't even remotely make sense (in fact I don't know how any publisher agreed to it), from why Angel needed superpowers to why he needed them ahead of Buffy to why people had to die to pretty much all of it. If you pull at one string the whole ball unravels.

If Twilight's plan was to relocate everyone to its universe in order to protect them from some sort of inevitable global destruction, Angel could have simply explained that to Buffy and her friends and tried to enlist their help before declaring war on the entire human race. Maybe she would have cooperated, maybe not, but if Angel's reasoning was to kill some humans in order to make all of the others safe and happy...no, wait a minute, that's what Jasmine did in Season 4 of "Angel," wasn't it?

Why would Angel buy into a plan like that, before ever being enthralled by Twilight, in Season 8 when he stopped pretty much the same thing just a couple of years earlier?

Maybe because Jasmine didn't offer him Buffy and their own Garden Of Eden.

Again, it didn't make sense. The two situations don't relate to one another. Jasmine just showed up and demanded worship in exchange for "saving" people. Angel received an apocalyptic vision from someone who had no reason to lie to him, and who Angel owed a great deal. Why wouldn't Angel believe Whistler when he shows up? That isn't exactly the same thing as Jasmine.

And don't get me wrong. I don't like the climax of S8 (or much of S8 for that matter, but that's another thread topic). I don't think it makes sense and I don't think much of it is very consistent with Angel's character. I felt like "After the Fall" and all the Angel comics nailed Angel and his crew, while S8 kind of butchered that feeling. You're right, in a sense. For me, it was hard to go along with S8 (and yes, I'm well aware that bias probably comes into play for me here. I like Angel a lot) after the way "Not Fade Away" and "After the Fall" ended. Those both exemplified everything I love about Angel. S8, to say the least, did not. I'm more than happy to blame the writers, but that kind of makes for a short (and not very fun) discussion.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

No. Angel is dead to me. That was the final straw. Twilight ruined everything for me. Angel finally did the unforgivable.

 

[white avenger]

unravels.




And don't get me wrong. I don't like the climax of S8 (or much of S8 for that matter, but that's another thread topic). I don't think it makes sense and I don't think much of it is very consistent with Angel's character.

And that, my friend, is the biggest fly in the buttermilk in this entire discussion. This ISN'T what we've been led to expect Angel to do. Before this season, none of Angel's screw ups were on even a continental scale, let alone global, but we are assured by no lesser authority than Joss himself that Season 8 is, indeed, as much canon as anything ever televised. That leaves us with two choices. We can accept the fact that Angel has, indeed, reached new levels of screwing up, or Angel has screwed up by letting himself be put under the thrall of a being who makes the First Evil look like the Moderately Naughty.

Bottom line, for me, at least, is that, however you look at it, Angel screwed up again, REALLY big time.