Help me understand the negativity

[Buffyverse Fan]

I agree with all the criticism, however, in light of the Buffy comic seasons, AS4 seems far less convoluted now.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I've gotten a bit busy lately but I'll try to respond (briefly at least) as soon as I can.

 

[chasesummers]

I've recently been rewatching Angel Season 4.

-The wittiness is absolutely gone

-The love between the Angel gang is gone

-Recurring characters like Gunn and Fred are, for the most part of the season and with the exception of some very few episodes, in the background.

-The energy without Cordelia changed terribly. I'm not saying this because I love Cordelia but because it's true to me, friends I watch it with also agree. Not only is Cordelia gone and possessed, but she spends the other half of the season in a coma, utter waste of character, she was the female energy of the show.

-I have absolutely no problem with the theme being ''dark'', but this was surprisingly boring.

-You can see how all the Angel characters by now have changed for the worst when you see Faith coming, she is STILL Faith while the others are just not who they truly are. (with the exception of Lorne)

-Few episodes I liked were Faith-centric ones (although it still lacked) and The Magic Bullet with Fred being the lead sort of, it was nice seeing Fred handling herself.

This is just my opinion. Next season 4 rewatch will be a summery! 😛

 

[timbitsmama]

I was going to post a whole bunch answering your questions, but I think [MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION] got almost everything my brain wanted to say! Great minds think alike 😉
but for me personally, I just found that season 4 was thrown together. It wasn't 'bad', but what made it seem not the best was the fact that Joss and everyone had a lot to play with (Connor, Cordelia, Jasmine, Angelus) throughout the entire season but really didn't do a lot with them IMO. But no hate on the season 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Allow me to boil this all down to two questions. 1.) What makes people so upset about the "Cordy" arc to a level of criticism that I don't see or hear for the other characters who have gone evil? (after all she wasn't even in control,she was not actually "evil" herself,much like Angel in Buffy season 2 or triggered Spike in season 7)

What makes fans upset about Cordy's storyline in this season was because her character was assassinated.

What is character assassination? If you're unfamiliar with that term, when used in fandom it basically describes when a character all the sudden becomes largely different, and exhibits behavior that is out of character. The term is used to describe a unjustified harming of the character's good reputation. In other words, it's used to make us hate a character so it'll be arguably easier to let him/her go. So, rather than changing the character naturally over time, the character may suddenly change. Fans will usually blame character assassination on bad writing.

And the easiest and most effective way to assassinate a character and make the fans hate him/her? Make 'em evil. It's lazy and it sucks. Cordy deserved more.

So, you ask, why would Joss assassinate one of his most beloved characters? What happened was Charisma got pregnant, didn't tell Joss until late in the game, and he had to write a pregnancy in the storyline. He resented her for it, and thus made her evil as payback. That's what I've heard, anyway.

Joss not only made Cordy evil, but he destroyed everything we loved about her in the process. He had her sleep with Angel's son, basically the worst thing, well...ever. Joss made sure that she hurt Angel in the worst possible way, and ruining any romance they could have had. Joss did the same thing to Spike: he tried to make us hate him by having him try to rape Buffy.

Joss made us hate Cordy because that was easier than giving her the noble death she deserved.

So, yeah, that's why I dislike her storyline in that season.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Ok ,on the Cordy sleeping with Connor thing. Everyone says its out of character,but how? since shes possessed by another evil entity. lol

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Season 4 just drops the ball on the Cordelia character, although I think someone said that she went downhill in season 3 and I totally agree. I really didn't like the last half of season 3 that the first half of season 4 were better for me overall. Hate the Cordy/Connor thing, that was really disgusting when I watched it. The things I do like were 'Spin the Bottle', Fred, Lorne, Gwen, Faith and Wesley. I love the whole Faith/Wesley team up and I really liked the introduction of Gwen Raiden, I wish they would have used her more. I always love Fred and Lorne, that's a given for me. The overall plot of Jasmine was terrible, I liked the Beast better. The fact that it's not really Cordy is hard to separate since she's in her body and we're to believe that it's Cordy. I'm not a super hater on season 4 because there are a lot of good highlights. It's just the overall arc and mistreatment of Cordelia that I don't like. Plus Connor is annoying as f***. The only time I like him is when Faith comes around and Cordy get to call him out on his interest in her, hen Faith kicks his ass. Other than that, Connor is just a bad character, and unlike some people I don't fault the actor. I think he did what he could with a terrible script. But I also have the same defense for Riley, so I guess it's just me.
But I would still rather watch season 4 vs the last half of season 3.

Am I the only one who likes Willow in Orpheus much more than I like Willow in Saeson 7 Buffy, she just seems more...Willow, plus she kicks ass.

I agree. In Buffy she is treated like a danger and has to constantly keep herself in check and I'm sure the added pressure from the scoobies doesn't help. So In 'Orpheus' when she is removed from that, she can be herself, just plain Willow. Her flirtation with Fred is funny and it's nice to see her bonding over books and spells and being her nerdy old self again. That is one of my favorite episodes of Angel.

You can see how all the Angel characters by now have changed for the worst when you see Faith coming, she is STILL Faith while the others are just not who they truly are. (with the exception of Lorne)

That's what I love about Faith, she comes back and she's the same old Faith just reformed and like you said it contrasts with the other characters who have dropped in season 4. But also on Buffy, Faith stands out amongst the terrible potentials and overall plot.

 

[chasesummers]

That's what I love about Faith, she comes back and she's the same old Faith just reformed and like you said it contrasts with the other characters who have dropped in season 4. But also on Buffy, Faith stands out amongst the terrible potentials and overall plot.

What saved Faith is the lack of episodes, they kept her the way she was adding just growth, she had nothing to lose. It's similar to what happened to Cordelia really, she was absent throughout all Season 4 and when we see her come back on Season 5 everything seems to be refreshed as she's the Cordy we left at Season 3.

I see Cordelia as Angel's (as the character and the show's) anchor, she grounds it all back when the shows goes too far. Helping the helpless, she's the vision girl and she accepts it and wants to do something with it.

The way Season 4 was put, suggests that they wanted us to hate Cordy because of personal issues, Joss was ''mad'', if that's the case then it's very unprofessional to take personal issues to the work place but what's done is done and I don't want to get into all that.

To me, even with Faith around, the show remained dull and different in a negative way. What a pity.

 

[bespangeled]

Also, the show looked like it was moving toward Cordy and Angel so something had to be done. Yeah - it was revenge for her pregnancy and complete character assassination. It also solved the problem of "Were we in love?"

I think Cordelia and Angel work better than Angel and Buffy. But that would have alienated too many fans and you know how those....fans can be. That's part of why season 4 doesn't work for me - they were working on a storyline that I found interesting, and they dropped it for a series of unbelievable tropes.

Some episodes are great but they don't make up for it.

 

[ladydorotea]

The way Season 4 was put, suggests that they wanted us to hate Cordy because of personal issues

I disagree entirely. What makes you think so? Cordelia going evil was Joss plan for the character way before they learned about Charisma's personal situation. With this atiitude might as well suspect that Joss hated Aly and Amber as well, becaus you know... one ended dead the other evil.

I think Cordelia and Angel work better than Angel and Buffy.

I think they absolutely did not. Otherwise, why sudden need to kurrumption and other ridiculous stuff of S3?

But that would have alienated too many fans and you know how those....fans can be.

Yup, and killing Tara was a breeze with no fans alienation at risk. And they absolutely did not go for it, because. Seriously, claiming that Cordy's plot turned out the way it was because of ( I assume Bangel ?) fans is about as ridiculous as accusing Joss of hating LGBT people or Charisma in person. ( In fact it is about as 'logical' as believing that his making Angel to be Twilight was his revenge against DB and Angel fans. Right.)

Honestly, I am not a big fan of AtS S4, but Cordelia's arc is the least of my problems with it. The biggest one was actually the utter ridicule of the planet of humanoid bugs portal opening at the right place at the right time, and the whole deal with 'Jasmine had planned it all' retcon. That was hideous.

 

[bespangeled]

I disagree entirely. What makes you think so? Cordelia going evil was Joss plan for the character way before they learned about Charisma's personal situation. With this atiitude might as well suspect that Joss hated Aly and Amber as well, becaus you know... one ended dead the other evil.



I think they absolutely did not. Otherwise, why sudden need to kurrumption and other ridiculous stuff of S3?




Yup, and killing Tara was a breeze with no fans alienation at risk. And they absolutely did not go for it, because. Seriously, claiming that Cordy's plot turned out the way it was because of ( I assume Bangel ?) fans is about as ridiculous as accusing Joss of hating LGBT people or Charisma in person. ( In fact it is about as 'logical' as believing that his making Angel to be Twilight was his revenge against DB and Angel fans. Right.)

Honestly, I am not a big fan of AtS S4, but Cordelia's arc is the least of my problems with it. The biggest one was actually the utter ridicule of the planet of humanoid bugs portal opening at the right place at the right time, and the whole deal with 'Jasmine had planned it all' retcon. That was hideous.

So there would have been no fan blowback if Cordy and Angel went from 'were we in love?' to 'we are in love' ? Hey, they were on the way to a consummate their love when Cordy was taken to house Jasmine. A season that focused on Cordy and Angel as a couple would have been far more palatable than a season with Cordy does the Mrs. Robinson with the kid whose diapers she used to change.

Yeah, there was blowback from killing Tara, but not all that much. It didn't change the basic nature of Tara and Willow's love. Now, having Tara go straight and hook-up with a guy would have caused a lot more of a problem.

And kyrumption - way dumb word.

 

[ladydorotea]

So there would have been no fan blowback if Cordy and Angel went from 'were we in love?' to 'we are in love' ?

I am not arguing there would have been none, rather, the fact that Whedon is known to take this particular risk and ride it out - if he really wans to do a particular story. The fan blowback never stopped Joss and Co from killing characters, maiming characters, decimating ships etc *if* they thought it would be an interesting story. With Cangel demolition they obviously thought the story they told was worth the trauma. Whether the 'other' fandom camp was an issue or not is not important over the fact that creative team just did not want o go all the way with Cangel. Blame Joss for being fickle or cruel or plain addicted to misery, but don't try to present his creative choice as being forced by one part of the fandom over another. It was his choice, not fandom's.

Hey, they were on the way to a consummate their love when Cordy was taken to house Jasmine.

Maybe, or maybe they were on the way to a long conversation over camomile tea, finally deciding the risk was not worth it. We will never know.

A season that focused on Cordy and Angel as a couple

Funnily enough, I thought that that season 3 was focused on Angel getting to terms with having a child and learning how to deal with being a parent. Aaand there was plenty of other interesting stuff too, the least of which was Cordy-Angel dynamics.

Yeah, there was blowback from killing Tara, but not all that much. It didn't change the basic nature of Tara and Willow's love.

Seriously? Killing the only lesbian true love on the show was less of a problem than making Cordy being possessed by an evil entity? Also, don't forget that in Joss' original plan Tara was supposed to come back evil, which is exactly what he ended up doing with Cordelia , and sort-of with Angel as Twilight. Tells me tons of what the man's favorite trope is, and proves he cares zilch about fandom backlash.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Kyrumption=WAY COOL word

 

[thetopher]

To be honest I never saw the destruction of Cangel in S4 as anything to do with Buffy/Angel fans, we'd already seen Angel and Cordelia romantically involved in a willthey/won't they way through about half on S3. To say that the writers suddenly got cold feet about it is a pretty big leap.

I mean Bangel fans had already put up with Buffy weeping over the fact that she was sleeping with Spike, plus Angel being intimately involved with both Darla (human and vampire) and Gwen Raiden (passionate kissing plus chemistry)- i,e it was clear to the viewers that both of them had moved on and were having intimate relationships with other people, what makes Cordelia/Angel suddenly such a threat?

The big problems with S4 are that they took Cordelia to a place where her character couldn't come back from (whether this was always the intent is up for debate, though) and the Jasmine arc which was really boring. 🙁
Although at least we get the very good 'Home' as a final episode.

 

[bespangeled]

To be honest I never saw the destruction of Cangel in S4 as anything to do with Buffy/Angel fans, we'd already seen Angel and Cordelia romantically involved in a willthey/won't they way through about half on S3. To say that the writers suddenly got cold feet about it is a pretty big leap.

I mean Bangel fans had already put up with Buffy weeping over the fact that she was sleeping with Spike, plus Angel being intimately involved with both Darla (human and vampire) and Gwen Raiden (passionate kissing plus chemistry)- i,e it was clear to the viewers that both of them had moved on and were having intimate relationships with other people, what makes Cordelia/Angel suddenly such a threat?

The big problems with S4 are that they took Cordelia to a place where her character couldn't come back from (whether this was always the intent is up for debate, though) and the Jasmine arc which was really boring. 🙁
Although at least we get the very good 'Home' as a final episode.

I think you're probably right as far as fans are concerned but the blowback would have been spectacular. (And yes, Spuffy fans would have hated Spike/Fred just as much) Not saying anything about Bangel fans except it's their ship being sunk.

Don't forget Nina - and never telling Buffy he had a child close to her age. You know, if he had gone to Sunnydale to weep on Buffy's should about Connor, I can really see everything going in a different direction. He was so dishonest and disconnected considering everything that had just happened to him.

I think Cordy/Angel is a threat because we saw real love, up to declarations and meeting plans. We saw what could be in "You're Welcome" Darla is sort of grandfathered in - and Gwen is just necking. And their are male ships - Angel/Spike is canon. Angel/everyone else is just for fun, but some is really well written.

I don't have one ship - though Spangel is probably my favorite read most of the time. There a few pairings that squick me, and BDSM is boring.

 

[thetopher]

I think you're probably right as far as fans are concerned but the blowback would have been spectacular. (And yes, Spuffy fans would have hated Spike/Fred just as much) Not saying anything about Bangel fans except it's their ship being sunk.

Don't forget Nina - and never telling Buffy he had a child close to her age. You know, if he had gone to Sunnydale to weep on Buffy's should about Connor, I can really see everything going in a different direction. He was so dishonest and disconnected considering everything that had just happened to him.

I think Cordy/Angel is a threat because we saw real love, up to declarations and meeting plans. We saw what could be in "You're Welcome" Darla is sort of grandfathered in - and Gwen is just necking. And their are male ships - Angel/Spike is canon. Angel/everyone else is just for fun, but some is really well written.

I don't have one ship - though Spangel is probably my favorite read most of the time. There a few pairings that squick me, and BDSM is boring.

I guess if Angel and Cordelia had got to declare their love it could've been epic, or it could've been Buffy/Riley all over again- its really just a matter of perspective.
A giant what-if, but I still don't think it was the reason that the relationship was terminated, the reason was...drama/angst!. Like pretty much anything else in the Jossverse, hardly anybody gets a happy relationship/ending.

I always forget Nina to be honest. 🙁
To me the two big passions in Angel's life were Buffy and Darla, both set him on his path and shaped him, somewhat, into who he is now.
There are other relationships that matter of course (Doyle, Cordelia, Faith, Connor) and all those have shaped Angel in some way, but if we're taking passion then its thoes two little blonde girls that I tend to think of.

I know that JM thought that they were gonna go the romantic route with him and Fred, but I think it was just to give Spike a solid connection outside of Angel and to have him be as affected/invested as the rest of the gang when Fred starts to die.
For my money Fred/Wesley was always meant to be. (Spike/Illyria on the other hand..😀)

I know a lot of people have a big problem with Angel's portrayal when he shows up in 'Chosen', just after losing Cordy and his son. I look at it this way; Angel going to see Buffy was partly love, but also partly nostalgia, (and also delivering the amulet/helping.) instead of focussing on all his own crap life he could relax and rebond with his old flame (which is what makes his petulant jealously about Spike so realistic/funny.) and why I don't think he wants to dump all his problems on Buffy in the middle of an apocalypse- that's just being needy- also I don't think anybody even knows about Conner (because of the spell), but I guess he could've mentioned Cordelia to her. (Just to see Buffy get jealous/incredulous in turn) I sure hope Buffy finds out that Angel has had other love interests besides her.

I always thought that Angel/Doyle and Angel/Lindsey are fun ships. (I tend to go where the chemistry leads ...) and I agree that Angelus/Spike is definitly canon, don't know if Angel thinks about Spike that way though. It's a nice thought 😀

I tend to see Angel/Spike like Buffy/Faith, two characters who are connected/understand each other on a level nobody else can match- they are the only two in their particular situation, and they really tend to fizz off each other when their onscreen together, leading to some truly memorable scenes. 🙂

 

[bespangeled]

I guess if Angel and Cordelia had got to declare their love it could've been epic, or it could've been Buffy/Riley all over again- its really just a matter of perspective.
A giant what-if, but I still don't think it was the reason that the relationship was terminated, the reason was...drama/angst!. Like pretty much anything else in the Jossverse, hardly anybody gets a happy relationship/ending.

Yeah, once they "get married" there is only one way to go - torture and angst. And I just don't have it in me to watch more Angel angsting over a woman. But I still like them - like their dynamic. At least they didn't get ruined with over exposure.

I always forget Nina to be honest. 🙁
To me the two big passions in Angel's life were Buffy and Darla, both set him on his path and shaped him, somewhat, into who he is now.
There are other relationships that matter of course (Doyle, Cordelia, Faith, Connor) and all those have shaped Angel in some way, but if we're taking passion then its thoes two little blonde girls that I tend to think of.

Darla and Buffy - yes. A mirror of good and evil. His passion with Darla was damn epic, and he couldn't resist her. Buffy was a different kind of passion. Darla killed him, and Buffy brought him back to life. She was Spike's lodestone too. I tend to think she didn't love him, at least not the way he wanted. But I read somewhere - Buffy f*cked the soul out of Angel and then f*cked one into Spike. She was the central figure of who they both are now.

I'd add in a small blonde manpire. Look at it this way - Angel staked Darla, staked Penn, and set fire to Darla and Dru. He protected Spike on the sub, during Lover's Walk he put himself between Spike and Buffy's stake-and I'm sure Angel could have let Spike get staked and found Willow etc if he wanted. Hell, he even took a stake for him when Illyria killed them all. Look at the two of them after "Why We Fight" staring out the window. Deep link there.

I know that JM thought that they were gonna go the romantic route with him and Fred, but I think it was just to give Spike a solid connection outside of Angel and to have him be as affected/invested as the rest of the gang when Fred starts to die.
For my money Fred/Wesley was always meant to be. (Spike/Illyria on the other hand..😀)

Ick - I really think fanfic when I play with pairings. I mean I can believe it during the story but wouldn't want it in the show. I came up with Fred because she was the last woman alive in the group. No - Spike/Fred would have no spark. But I ship Lilah/Wesley all the way. Wesley/Fred was sweet and romantic, and tragic. But Wesley and Lilah were delicious. They really enjoyed the challenge of each other, and the sex looked the best in the entire verse. They were interesting and hot - one of the most intriguing match-ups.

I know a lot of people have a big problem with Angel's portrayal when he shows up in 'Chosen', just after losing Cordy and his son. I look at it this way; Angel going to see Buffy was partly love, but also partly nostalgia, (and also delivering the amulet/helping.) instead of focussing on all his own crap life he could relax and rebond with his old flame (which is what makes his petulant jealously about Spike so realistic/funny.) and why I don't think he wants to dump all his problems on Buffy in the middle of an apocalypse- that's just being needy- also I don't think anybody even knows about Conner (because of the spell), but I guess he could've mentioned Cordelia to her. (Just to see Buffy get jealous/incredulous in turn) I sure hope Buffy finds out that Angel has had other love interests besides her.

That feels like good rationalizations to me. Not the foundation of a good relationship. Kinda like they are in love as long as they are apart - but honesty and vulnerability go out the window when they are together. I would prefer something closer to the Buffy/Angel in the cemetery after Joyce died. I always figured that Angel was half suicidal when he reached Sunnydale but that is a different thread.

The whole staying apart thing actually blows a hole in the ship - what will happen in a few years that will make a relationship safe? Shanshu? I think they should have had more connection - not avoided it. Of course, it's in the cracks like this where stories are born.🙂

I always thought that Angel/Doyle and Angel/Lindsey are fun ships. (I tend to go where the chemistry leads ...) and I agree that Angelus/Spike is definitly canon, don't know if Angel thinks about Spike that way though. It's a nice thought 😀

Angelus and Spike screwed each other in a whole lot of ways - I doubt there was ever romance but I'm sure there was sex, and more than one time. (Btw - Spike's line is "that one...." which could be any amount of time in Spike speak.) Also - I kinda doubt Spike sees shagging as all that intimate. Try it on for size "Harmony and I were intimate." - nah. Friendly, caring and intimate sex was probably rare - at least until they got their souls and probably after.

Let me put it this way - if Angel and Buffy spent 30 years together, Spike would be there when she died to make sure Angel didn't take an afternoon stroll. That is love. Under all the snark and complaining, there is a bond there. The humans are mayfly - in some ways they only have each other.

I tend to see Angel/Spike like Buffy/Faith, two characters who are connected/understand each other on a level nobody else can match- they are the only two in their particular situation, and they really tend to fizz off each other when their onscreen together, leading to some truly memorable scenes. 🙂

Yeah - Buffy/Faith - not my cup of tea but I can really see it. Even once the potentials are activated, Buffy and Faith share a history, and some definite chemistry!

We are way off topic - but this is fun. How do you get a thread split here? I'd love to do one on fanfic ships. See what different pairs people are open to.

---------- Post added at 05:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 AM ----------

just to let you know Topher - I just posted this to the new pairings - scene thread. Hope that's okay

 

[chasesummers]

I disagree entirely. What makes you think so? Cordelia going evil was Joss plan for the character way before they learned about Charisma's personal situation. With this atiitude might as well suspect that Joss hated Aly and Amber as well, becaus you know... one ended dead the other evil.

Fair enough, but I get that impression. Even hearing what Charisma had to say about it made me feel there was this personal issue in the middle. Just sharing and you don't need to agree.

I think Cordelia and Angel work better than Angel and Buffy.

Agreed

 

[ladydorotea]

Agreed

I think you got the quoting mixed up a bit. I honestly think that Cordelia and Angel never ever worked as a romantic pairing at all, although they worked well as friends. Romantically it had all the passion of a wet blanket. Even Angel - Nina with all its blandness had some humor. Cangel was originally ear-marked as B-grade-doomed and therefore boring, so first the writers struggled to invent the reason, then struggled to give it momentum, then struggled to invent 'obstacles' like Groo, and finally decided to throw it under the bus without consummation because consummation would have been either truly ridiculous repetition of the same , or embarrassing admittance of 'nope, seriously not there'.

 

[Silverspike]

Yeah, I like me a bit of Cangel, and thought both characters worked well together in the show.

Some quotes from the time for those who may be interested..

From Joss Whedon, Season 3 DVD commentary on Waiting In The Wings:
Quote:

"Where I really broke into the show, where I really began to understand what it was going to be about, was the scene where they're possessed by the sprit of the old lovers and cannot help themselves, but must get all smoochie. And partially because I thought it was wicked sexy, but also because it was a chance for them to express emotions that they were not in a position to tell each other about yet. So that sequence, which was cut up into many sequences, really represents the heart of the show. It was the thing around which I knew I could build the story."

Joss Whedon on Season 4, Fall issue of Cinescape

Quote:
"It's kind of a continuation of last year. Last year Angel found himself with a son - and found himself with a really crappy son. He also found himself falling in love."

David Greenwalt, November 13 2001

Quote:
"Angel and Buffy have both moved on. Angel realizes this season that he had moved on from Buffy *before* she died. It's only natural. It was a first love, and that's where it will remain."

Jane Espenson

Quote:
"Angel and Cordelia have a mature love between two old souls"

David Boreanaz YM, Feb. 2003

Quote:
How are fans reacting to the relationship between Cordelia and Angel? We've read on message boards that many fans feel like you're being unfaithful to Buffy.

"[That relationship] had a sad ending to it. There was a very deep love there and there was really no end to [that love]. But you have to move on. The relationship with Cordelia is a lot different than the relationship with Buffy was. So it's two different situations. You just let [fans] voice their opinion and it's nice. But when people say they wish [Buffy and Angel] were still together, I tell them if that were the case there wouldn't be any growth for both characters."