Heroes - Spike & Anya

[TrueVengeance]

I've seen this discussed on different forums, so I thought I'd bring it here.

Often times I see people saying how heroic Spike was in Chosen, but what about everyone else who went into the battle that day? Why are they not herioc as well? Fighting to save the world?

An another forum, the topic was dealing with Anya's death, and the issue was brought up that it was less heroic than Spike's. But my question is why, what makes her any less heroic than Spike? They were bother willing to die to protect the world...and they did. Spike may have saved millions of lives where Anya's didn't, but to me the number of lives you save doesn't matter. Its the fact that their willing to give up their lives for someone elses/the world/whatever. They both took one for the team, and their both equal in the "hero" department in my eyes.

This has probably been discussed before, but I'm curious to know what you all think.

What say you?

 

[GATEGOD]

I think Anya was just as Heroic and the fact that he comes back anyway takes away from his heroism and places Anya's death as even more heroic when she died fighting :cry:
Anyways, they were both heroic going into battle and when it ended for them :cry:

 

[TrueVengeance]

How's Spike's return take the heroism out of him? He didn't know he was coming back; which intention means alot I think...sometimes more than action

But I agree...would would've thought the demons would be the ones who ended up taking one for the team? Twas sad 🙁

 

[palabravampiress]

They were both heroes. They both chose their souls. They both fought even though they knew what they risked. They both died trying. Heroes.

I think they were equally heroic. The fact that Spike came back doesn't lessen his sacrifice. I mean, is Buffy's sacrifice at the end of season 5 any less heroic because her friends ripped her out of Heaven? I don't think so. He didn't *know* he'd come back. For that matter, we don't *know* for sure that Anya will never come back, either. Everyone who fought was a hero. Those who made the ultimate sacrifice, well, I think their actions speak for themselves.

Here's my question: do you think Anya went to Hell after she gave up her life? I was really disappointed by the fact that the conventional Buffyverse wisdom is that no matter how much good Spike and Angel do, their souls are still damned to a Hell dimension due to actions taken when they were soulless. That leads me to believe that Anya, who had, like, a good millennium on everyone else and wreaked vengeance for the majority of that time, must also be damned to a Hell dimension. That just doesn't seem right! I think if you die fighting to save the world, well, that should cancel out the bad that's come before. I think that kind of selfless sacrifice should be an automatic ticket into a Heaven dimension.

 

[TrueVengeance]

They were both heroes. They both chose their souls. They both fought even though they knew what they risked. They both died trying. Heroes.

I think they were equally heroic. The fact that Spike came back doesn't lessen his sacrifice. I mean, is Buffy's sacrifice at the end of season 5 any less heroic because her friends ripped her out of Heaven? I don't think so. He didn't *know* he'd come back. For that matter, we don't *know* for sure that Anya will never come back, either. Everyone who fought was a hero. Those who made the ultimate sacrifice, well, I think their actions speak for themselves.

I totally agree with your post 🙂 Couldn't have said it better myself

Here's my question: do you think Anya went to Hell after she gave up her life? I was really disappointed by the fact that the conventional Buffyverse wisdom is that no matter how much good Spike and Angel do, their souls are still damned to a Hell dimension due to actions taken when they were soulless. That leads me to believe that Anya, who had, like, a good millennium on everyone else and wreaked vengeance for the majority of that time, must also be damned to a Hell dimension. That just doesn't seem right! I think if you die fighting to save the world, well, that should cancel out the bad that's come before. I think that kind of selfless sacrifice should be an automatic ticket into a Heaven dimension.

Hmm...not sure. When did they say Spike and Angel would be damned to a hell dimension? I can't remember. I remember Spike and Angel saying that about themselves...but that's just probably what they think. Unless TPTB state somewhere...I've missed alot of Angel hehe

But I imagine. If Spike and Angel are, I imagine she would as well. Unless TBTB aren't quite done with her yet...maybe she needs her own spinoff:lmao:
(I actually started writing one lol)

 

[anyatara]

They're both Heroes, though in actual fact, I think Anya was more heroic. I mean, sure Spike died to save the world, but Anya fought and was killed, Spike just put on an amulet and turned to dust. I get the whole big picture, but if you look deeper into things, I would have to go with Anya being more of a hero.

 

[sosa lola]

They're both heroes. Everybody was a hero in that battle. The fact that they went to fight knowing they'd die makes them heroes.

 

[Kana]

Like I've always said it's not a scobreboard. As everyone has said, both are heroes.

 

[palabravampiress]

They're both Heroes, though in actual fact, I think Anya was more heroic. I mean, sure Spike died to save the world, but Anya fought and was killed, Spike just put on an amulet and turned to dust. I get the whole big picture, but if you look deeper into things, I would have to go with Anya being more of a hero.

People always say that. But Spike didn't just stand around waiting for the amulet to make his soul explode. He didn't know that's what was going to happen. Remember that awesome slow-mo shot in which Buffy's fighting in the foreground and Spike's like leaping through the air about to slice open an uber vamp in the background? Everyone who went to the school (except for Willow, who was busy with the mojo) fought. It may not have been a sword that took Spike, but it was the same concept. They both went to the Hellmouth to fight the minions of the First Evil. They both knew they might die, but they went anyway. And then, they didn't make it back. Like TrueVengeance said, the demons ended up "taking one for the team." I don't see one as any more heroic than the other (although I do see one as more fortunate than the other... that being Spike, obviously, since he got a second chance at his unlife and Anya is still dead).

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

They're both Heroes, though in actual fact, I think Anya was more heroic. I mean, sure Spike died to save the world, but Anya fought and was killed, Spike just put on an amulet and turned to dust. I get the whole big picture, but if you look deeper into things, I would have to go with Anya being more of a hero.

This is a terrible thing to say. Anya was a hero, she gave her life to help save the world I do not understand how anyone could argue different to that BUT to say she was more heroic than Spike just because he had the amulet is absurd.
Neither went into battle thinking they would survive, its not like Spike went in thinking

'Bugger this for a larf, I'm going to have a bloody cuppa while the Slayer wannabes do most of the work then saunter in looking hot in my leather coat, put on that piece of bling and save the world'.

He went in to fight, to win just like Anya.
I think you need to rewatch Chosen and try to understand what is going on with them.
Fact is, even the ones that survived are equal to Spike and Anya, yes even Andrew, because they went in with the same mindset.

We may win, we may lose, we might survive we'll probably die but we have to do this to save the world.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

My take is, Spike knew he wasn't getting out alive. He knowingly sacrificed himself, where as Anya was fighting for survival as well as to help save the world.

That's not to say my personal opinion is Spike is the bigger "hero" but i just think thats what the majority views it as.

 

[Kean]

I'm gona put a spanner in the works and throw in what Joss said in the commentary for the ep...her death meant nothing. Not my words, his. I found it kinda surprising to be honest that he would say that. He mentions how Andrew makes up the story for Xander about her dying to save his life to comfort Xander, but ultimately he says her death meant nothing.

Personally I always saw her death as heroic, especially after her talk with Andrew in the hospital. She could have ran at any stage and didn't, she didn't have Xnader for an excuse for most of season 7 but she still stayed, fought and died. Thats Hero material in my book.

 

[TrueVengeance]

I'm gona put a spanner in the works and throw in what Joss said in the commentary for the ep...her death meant nothing. Not my words, his. I found it kinda surprising to be honest that he would say that. He mentions how Andrew makes up the story for Xander about her dying to save his life to comfort Xander, but ultimately he says her death meant nothing.

Personally I always saw her death as heroic, especially after her talk with Andrew in the hospital. She could have ran at any stage and didn't, she didn't have Xnader for an excuse for most of season 7 but she still stayed, fought and died. Thats Hero material in my book.

I watched that as well. I too was kinda suprised he said that. However, i think it was a good idea to have her be the one who's death was kinda...pointless, because she was always saying how death was stupid. And humans were stupid for fighting, etc... That's how she went out, fighting alongside humans to save the world. She doesn't have to save anyone directly to actually be heroic. Everyone who fought that day was, even Andrew.

 

[anyatara]

Huh, that's a good point =/ Spike was a hero...I just never saw it that way before.

Woah, I actually cried when I read what you to said about Anya, well, got tears to my eyes at least. It makes so much sense but...it's not a nice thought, Anya rocks 😛

 

[Tomp]

For me, this was the best way Anya could have left.

 

[GATEGOD]

For me, this was the best way Anya could have left.

lol I would have preferred her leaving alive 😀 but I guess it's better then running :cry:

 

[Kimz]

i think personally it was nice to see some of the previous bad guys get some praise and be heroes 🙂

spike obviously (and his return in angel, doesnt make him any less of hero, i dont think)

anya - ex demon, came through as a hero

and sorta in a way... andrew (ok he wasnt mega evil lol) but stepping in and actually lending a hand, helping to fight etc...and i guess it even continues when hes working alongside giles in angel to bring together the slayers.

x

 

[Karol]

They´re both heroes... agree.

But I think they were pretty evil killing Anya that pointless way.. she was a great character, she was there by choice, she had that conversation with Andrew about being human.... And in the end her death was about 2 second on screen, I almost didnt see it, then Xander doenst find her... At least a good bye would be good...
I didn´t like it, Joss was evil..

 

[Fake Shemp]

both heroes, and im glad anya died. harsh? nope? she metaphorically died back in Selfless, and is way past life expectansy anywhos. Her character had already arced before the end, but it was nice for them to get in her love of humans by the end, so it wasnt like she wasnt doing anything the whole season.

andrews lie to xander was what made him perfect imo, he did end up a true storyteller and a hero for protecting xanders memory of anya and anyas death.

remember i love anya so i dont mean any of this in a hating anya way. her death was not a pointless death at the end for no reason imo.

 

[atticus]

I think both are equal, but i understand why opinions differ. Spike did a lot more damage than Anya, but Anya was a human, she didn't have the advantage of super strength. And as for Anya's death meaning nothing, I think that will be decided by what Andrew becomes, i hope he becomes a great character in the Buffy universe, and make a difference. I know that he made up the story, that she died saving his life, but she really did, he just didn't see it. I've watched that scene so many times. A bringer is about to knife Andrew, cut to Anya stabbing a villain of camera, and then she dies, next time we see Andrew, he's alive. I just know she killed that bringer, and saved his life. Go Anya. Do her proud Andrew.